Jon’s queen ~ Adding all foreshadowings up.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Please, no Jon/Sansa. Less incest.

[Newstar]

I hadn't realized that Jon compared Ygritte to Arya several times. Eesh.

As for Jon/Arya, how messed-up would it be if he wound up with someone who's the very image of his biological mother? Gross.

Kind of like the idea of Jon/Arianne, even though it strikes me as unlikely, if only for how different they are.

Can't rule out Jon/Sansa at this stage, and if Sansa's going to end up as queen of Westeros, Jon's probably the best she can do in the king department.

Jon/Val seems like a red herring. We don't even know how old she is.

Jon/Dany seems the most likely to me.

[Roddy the Ruin]

I hadn't realized that Jon compared Ygritte to Arya several times. Eesh.

As for Jon/Arya, how messed-up would it be if he wound up with someone who's the very image of his biological mother? Gross.

Kind of like the idea of Jon/Arianne, even though it strikes me as unlikely, if only for how different they are.

Can't rule out Jon/Sansa at this stage, and if Sansa's going to end up as queen of Westeros, Jon's probably the best she can do in the king department.

Jon/Val seems like a red herring. We don't even know how old she is.

Jon/Dany seems the most likely to me.

Jon has a total Oedipus Complex

[Pod The Rod]

If Jon and Sansa ever interact in a sexual manner I will burn the books and bury the ashes with dung. Same goes for Jon-Arya, only I will run them through a shredder first. I've said in similar threads to this one that Margaery would be perfect for him, or any man, but she's not making it out of the first third of Winds, so that's a no go. Val is easily feasible, but I don't want it to happen because she's a boring, cardboard character. Dany is likeliest, IMO, but frankly I don't really see them getting along too well realistically. Personalities are too different.

I second the motion that Jon will end up with No One. (not a FM)

[Audrey Arryn]

Ugh Jon and Sansa is such a turn off

[Mladen]

Tze's essay about Sansa-Jon should be here. One of the most wonderful posts ever made in this forum.

I think you've mistaken 'wonderful' for 'the most inaccurate post taken seriously on this forum.' It's full of inaccuracies and conjecture dressed up as foreshadowing and parallels to make people believe in it's validity. The opening line isn't even accurate, these two are far from the only Starks who have never interacted on page. And besides, it was never meant to be a shipping manifesto to begin with.

Tze's post about Sansa and Jon is by far one of the most amazing analyses of the relationships on this forum. As someone who has read it, with abundance of this forum's best and brightest posters, Tze's post has been truly considered to be among the finest work. It is profound analysis with many rather striking observations. You couldn't be more wrong to say that it is full of inaccuracies and conjectures since I personally have sen none. And given that the post has been quoted ad infinitum by many people here and debated quite extensively, I truly think you are wrong. The only thing you are right it was never meant as shipping manifesto.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Please guys can we go back to foreshadowings and not personal preferences?

[Roddy the Ruin]

JonXSansa makes me disgusted and happy at the same time. On the plus side, they both love each other (finding out they are cousins makes it possible to have become a more romantic love)

And at the same time. They.are.COUSINS.

[Lord Thornhart]

And at the same time. They.are.COUSINS.

If you found out today that your sister is actually your cousin, would you ever consider sleeping with her?

[Roddy the Ruin]

If you found out today that your sister is actually your cousin, would you ever consider sleeping with her?

no

[Lord Thornhart]

no

I don't think Jon and Sansa would either.

[Roddy the Ruin]

I don't think Jon and Sansa would either.

me neither

[Ingelheim]

I don't think Jon and Sansa would either.

The thing is...

If Jon found out today that his atractive half-sister he hasn't seen in years is actually his cousin, would he ever consider sleeping with her? In ASOIAF, he might.

[Silverscream]

Tze's post about Sansa and Jon is by far one of the most amazing analyses of the relationships on this forum. As someone who has read it, with abundance of this forum's best and brightest posters, Tze's post has been truly considered to be among the finest work. It is profound analysis with many rather striking observations. You couldn't be more wrong to say that it is full of inaccuracies and conjectures since I personally have seen none. And given that the post has been quoted ad infinitum by many people here and debated quite extensively, I truly think you are wrong. The only thing you are right it was never meant as shipping manifesto.

As I said before, it's inaccurate from the get go with the opening line. The post starts out putting emphasis on the idea that Jon and Sansa are the only Stark children that haven't interacted on page, but that's far from true. Sansa has no on page interaction with any of her brothers, and the only one Arya does is Jon. The idea that Sansa has based Alayne on rememberances of Jon is what's conjecture - Sansa isn't subconsciously thinking that Alayne can't like to dance because the only bastard she knows hates it, it's because Alayne doesn't have the same upbringing as Sansa and shouldn't know those dances. And I don't see how her mothering of Sweetrobin has anything to do with how Jon treated Bran and Rickon. It's not the same, since in many ways she finds it hard to tolerate Sweetrobin. The most valid part of the essay is the Pomegranate comparisons, but at the same time it leaves out Dany's own experiences with one when Xaro specifically mentions how he gave her pomegranates in ACOK.

And yes, I've seen the way posters on this forum idolize that post to a ridiculous level, to the point where they've refused to actually engage with the person they were arguing with and just linked to that post instead. Honestly if that post wasn't made by someone as respected on the forum as tze, it wouldn't have gotten any more attention than the other essays in that Pawn to Player thread did. But anyway, this really isn't the thread to argue about this.

[Whipsy]

This thread is getting a little off topic, wouldn't you say?

[Mladen]

As I said before, it's inaccurate from the get go with the opening line. The post starts out putting emphasis on the idea that Jon and Sansa are the only Stark children that haven't interacted on page, but that's far from true. Sansa has no on page interaction with any of her brothers, and the only one Arya does is Jon. The idea that Sansa has based Alayne on rememberances of Jon is what's conjecture - Sansa isn't subconsciously thinking that Alayne can't like to dance because the only bastard she knows hates it, it's because Alayne doesn't have the same upbringing as Sansa and shouldn't know those dances. And I don't see how her mothering of Sweetrobin has anything to do with how Jon treated Bran and Rickon. It's not the same, since in many ways she finds it hard to tolerate Sweetrobin. The most valid part of the essay is the Pomegranate comparisons, but at the same time it leaves out Dany's own experiences with one when Xaro specifically mentions how he gave her pomegranates in ACOK.

The essay is not inaccurate from the opening line. Sansa finds the srength in Robb, thinking of him as some big brother protector, she remembers her little brothers, and she interacts with Arya. In Winterfell, we see Jon saying goodbye to all his siblings but Sansa. In literary sense, that means something. As for Arya, we heard stories of her and Bran frightening Sansa. So, there is an emphasis on the lack of interaction between Sansa and Jon from literary POV. As for Alayne, is it conjecture to think that when Sansa herself compares herself to Jon, in terms of bastard status, when he is the only bastard she knows that a lot of her Alayne personna is based upon Jon. Also, her mothering of SR is comparable to Jon's interaction with Bran and Rickon. Bran says that Jon was always the most serious, and that he was someone they looked up for. Plus, we see in Nymeria/Ghost interactions how she-direwolf basically submitted to him, making of him alpha male. Sansa's interaction with SR is comparable but not identical.

And yes, I've seen the way posters on this forum idolize that post to a ridiculous level, to the point where they've refused to actually engage with the person they were arguing with and just linked to that post instead. Honestly if that post wasn't made by someone as respected on the forum as tze, it wouldn't have gotten any more attention than the other essays in that Pawn to Player thread did. But anyway, this really isn't the thread to argue about this.

This is plainly ridiculous. The abundance of great posters who has agreed with Tze truly speaks about validity of the post. The PTP gang is tough to please, and more than that, the post has been truly regarded by many as quite good. Even I, whose ASOIAF forte is in Sansa's chapters, gladly admit that the post is truly wonderful. Also, that post is like 18 months old. Tze's reputation back then was indeed great, but it grew by time. And even then, people of this board would never have problem confronting with someone whom they think is wrong, and that is what I think is quite offensive towards rather respectable bunch of people who agreed with that.

[KINGpanther]

I'm not sure if Jon will marry anybody by the end. This may be an unpopular idea but I believe his story arc is one of duty and honor. That's not to say he doesn't do dishonorable things or make decisions for love but I think the ultimate idea is that Jon's duty to the oaths he has made are the only things he will stay married to in the end. I would like to think that if Jon is a Targaryen and Rhaegar's legitimate heir that we will see a repeat of the story Maester Aemon told Jon and Jon Snow will remain Jon Snow, a man who renounced all titles for his duties.

But of course I could be completely fucking wrong and GRRM will remind me of how little I know. It has happened before and will happen again. It is known.

In which case, I am throwing my hat in for Lollys as well.

Yeh he could give up his rights to the throne, doesn't mean he wont bang Dany and provide the next king.

[Lord Baalish]

The blue rose is symbol often used to represent Lyanna in dreams and visions, and it has been linked to Jon Snow through the Bael the Bard story. There is a good run down in the first post of this thread (here) as well as on the asoiaf.westeros.org wiki.

As far as Dany goes, Dany is the one who sees that vision in the House of the Undying of the blue rose growing out of ice. Since this probably isn't a literal event it's most likely a vision relating to Jon.

I don't really get the castle thing though. What chapter is it even from?

Thank you, I forgot about the HotU.

About the castle, what I take from that is like 'all roads lead to Rome', as in you can take a different path and still end up in the same place. Wouldn't be sure if that's a clue as to Arya and Jon ending up together, but I could see the reference more easily about the blue rose.

[WingZero]

We are never told Val's age, if Jon is 17-18, she could easily be 18-20, so the age might not be a factor.

Val is my favourite female character, and I would heavily route for her to be with Jon.

[Hippocras]

Sansa or Arya, no just fucking NO! I know Jon's suppose to be half Targ who are known for their incest but come on.

I'm pulling for Shireen but with Jon "recovering" and Stannis marching on Winterfell, Shireen has no protection from Val or Mel who both want her dead.

Dany probably.

I don't get the strong reaction to Arya or Sansa but not Dany. To me Dany is just as bad. She is even more closely related by blood than Sansa and Arya, so higher on the incest scale.

That summary of foreshadowing only has actual real foreshadowing for Val. But I am not in love with the Val idea because to me that would mean either he never leaves the North, or Val dies.