Why Tywin is so ruthless

[KingslayerHodor]

I made a previous thread on Tywin actually being a good person. And my opinion has not changed since then: I think he's a good person who thinks of the greater good whenever he acts. Though it has to be admitted that most people aren't willing to be as ruthless as he is to ensure that the right thing is done. An example of this is the way he treated Tyrion for getting married: yes, he was justified in ending their marriage, and Tysha was a whore, but did he really need to do it in that way? Probably not. My goal in this thread is to examine Tywin's past to see why he can be so ruthless and harsh sometimes.

A good way to start this thread may be with a quote by Kevan Lannister, Tywin's brother:

Tywin seems a hard man to you, but he's no harder than he's had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed his gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his own mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years and all it earned him was a mad king's envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty and justice. He is a just man.

Kevan has a similar opinion that I do towards Tywin. He points out that Tywin is a ruthless man, but he had to because he wanted to ensure the greater good. He was ashamed of his weak father, who was defied openly despite his nobility. Even his father's whore took advantage of him with no shame whatsoever. What was Tywin forced to do here? He had to ensure that the greater good was done. I bolded the part where he was said to have "suffered slights beyond count." I have a feeling that this will be very important in the future.

Now, here is a scientific reason on why Tywin is so ruthless: due to the combination of his genes and past experiences, he's determined to respond to stimuli in the way that he does. It is hard to see how, if his experiences fix everything he does during his life, we can meaningfully say that he is a free agent, the author of his own actions, which he could have freely chosen to perform differently. After all, he has neither the power to change the laws of nature, nor to change the past! So in what sense can we attribute freedom of choice to him?

We can't just, for example, get Tywin's genetic code and say which gene causes him to be ruthless. We need to find a past experience such that it explains why he's so ruthless. I bolded something earlier when Kevan said Aerys forced Tywin to "suffer slights beyond count," and I think it's possible that Aerys did something to Tywin in the past, before Tywin's father died. I always found it a little strange that Aerys and Tywin had such troubles with each other when Tywin was doing so much for him. I think it goes a little deeper than what we originally thought.

Aerys was always noted to be a loony, even before the Defiance of Duskendale:

In his youth, Aerys II was charming, generous, handsome and resolute, although somewhat quick to anger. As he grew older, he became increasingly jealous, suspicious and cruel, prone to furious outbursts.

After the Defiance of Duskendale, these characteristics became more pronounced. He began to see every unexplained event or act of minor defiance as evidence of fearful conspiracies against him, and devised sadistic punishments for those he imagined to be his enemies. He developed a fascination with fire, which eventually grew so consuming that he could only become sexually aroused by watching someone burn to death. His marriage to his sister-wife Rhaella, while never happy, became sexually abusive late in his reign.

I bolded these two parts because I think it's clear that Aerys had issues even before the Defiance. I think it's possible that Aerys had one of his "furious outbursts" while he was meeting up with Tytos one day, and took it out on poor young Tywin by molesting him. This explains why Aerys and Tywin hate each other so much despite Tywin being so willing to assist him and bringing peace to Westeros for 20 years.

[Boarsbane]

Tywin is older than Aerys...

[KingslayerHodor]

Tywin is older than Aerys...

By just a year. Tywin could have been just like Tytos at first--they had the same genes--and it could be that Tywin became ruthless after the experience. It's entirely possible that Aerys overpowered Tywin due to his gentleness.

[Boarsbane]

By just a year. Tywin could have been just like Tytos at first--they had the same genes--and it could be that Tywin became ruthless after the experience. It's entirely possible that Aerys overpowered Tywin due to his gentleness.

At 10 years old Tywin was speaking out against his father's decisions. I think it is safe to assume he was nothing like Tytos even early in life. Unless you think a 9 year old Aerys raped a 10 year old Tywin?

[Panos Targaryen]

Why are people here so obsessed with sexual abuse? Joffrey molested Tommen, Euron molested Victarion, Viserys molested Daenerys, and now Aerys raped Tywin? Why does every villain in the story have to be a sexual deviant as well? No way he raped Tywin and he then became his Hand. And anyway, it's mentioned that before he became king, Aerys II and Tywin were friends.

edit: Not that I don't believe some of those happened. But ALL of them?

[KingslayerHodor]

At 10 years old Tywin was speaking out against his father's decisions. I think it is safe to assume he was nothing like Tytos even early in life. Unless you think a 9 year old Aerys raped a 10 year old Tywin?

Then it means it was before 10.

Joffrey molested Tommen at a young age. What makes you think Aerys, who is on Joffrey's level, couldn't molest anyone?

[Bael's Bastard]

I think Tywin was ruthless from a very early time. Tywin himself wiped out the Tarbecks and Reynes while his father was still in power. While I would hesitate to say he did it completely against his father's will, it strikes me as Tywin's decision and actions, not the lord's. Speculatively, I think he may have played a role in wiping out Aegon, Duncan, and Dunk in the year before that. I think some of the early problems between Tywin and Aerys may stem from being co-conspirators who were then stuck with each other.

[Bael's Bastard]

Joffrey molested Tommen at a young age.

Source?

[Universal Sword Donor]

Why are people here so obsessed with sexual abuse? Joffrey molested Tommen, Euron molested Victarion, Viserys molested Daenerys, and now Aerys raped Tywin? Why does every villain in the story have to be a sexual deviant as well? No way he raped Tywin and he then became his Hand. And anyway, it's mentioned that before he became king, Aerys II and Tywin were friends.

edit: Not that I don't believe some of those happened. But ALL of them?

It was Euron and Aeron, not Victarion afaik. The evidence for Joffrey is pretty weak (for it being sexual abuse). We know Viserys wanted to deflower Dany before Drogo got her (Illyrio said as much), but there isn't anything before that iirc. Aerys raping Tywin is beyond absurd.

[Panos Targaryen]

It was Euron and Aeron, not Victarion afaik. The evidence for Joffrey is pretty weak (for it being sexual abuse). We know Viserys wanted to deflower Dany before Drogo got her (Illyrio said as much), but there isn't anything before that iirc. Aerys raping Tywin is beyond absurd.

Yeah, Aeron, my bad.

[starkbucks]

Tysha was a whore? Didn't Jaime say otherwise?

[Frey Pie]

Lol

[Lord Baalish]

Why can't it be that Tywin always felt bitter because his father was so weak?

I remember a quote in one of the books where Tywin says, what's inhumane about letting a few die to spare a continent from suffering? Referring to the Red Wedding of course. Tywin may be ruthless, but I always believe him to act in Westeros' interest (and that of House Lannister).

[KingslayerHodor]

A bit too much bitterness, don't you think?

[SerFelixCulpa]

Joffrey molested Tommen at a young age. What makes you think Aerys, who is on Joffrey's level, couldn't molest anyone?

Aerys was not on Joffrey's level, at least initially. It is made clear that at the start of Aerys' reign he was a charming and thoughtful person who had occasional problems with his temper and such. He slowly degraded over time, with the Defiance of Duskendale having served as the "tipping point" when he went over into outright paranoia and capriciousness. Joffrey was a little s*** pretty much from the get go.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

The fact that MaesterHodor's new alt hasn't been banned yet, is nothing short of amazing. I mean, as trolls go, this thread is actually above average, but still.

[Ziggy Targdust]

In regards to the Tyrion/Tysha ordeal. I don't think there's any justification for bettering House Lannister, certainly not bettering Westeros.

This is the benchmark of Tywins ruthlessness to me.

And being ruthless to elevate House Lannister is really not much different than being ruthless for personal gain.

As far as his other ruthlessness being done in an effort to better the realm, I find it debatable. His yes man kevan is the only source for that.

It's really intimidating smallfolk and smaller Lords into believing he shits gold.

All through the books, almost every chapter somebody talks about the mighty gold shittin Tywin. The closer we get to him as readers, we see he's just an old dude with his own issues and irrational fears just like everybody else.

As far as why did he become the way he did, I'd say it's a combination between things that happened to him as a child/young man and simply being born predisposed to it.

[The Wolves]

Tywin was a monster

[Universal Sword Donor]

Aerys was not on Joffrey's level, at least initially. It is made clear that at the start of Aerys' reign he was a charming and thoughtful person who had occasional problems with his temper and such. He slowly degraded over time, with the Defiance of Duskendale having served as the "tipping point" when he went over into outright paranoia and capriciousness. Joffrey was a little s*** pretty much from the get go.

To be fair, Joffrey got that from his mom. Butchering a cat is pretty bad. Torturing a newborn and murdering your best friend tops that by quite a bit.

[SerFelixCulpa]

To be fair, Joffrey got that from his mom. Butchering a cat is pretty bad. Torturing a newborn and murdering your best friend tops that by quite a bit.

Joffrey was clinically a sociopath. I'm not sure how much of that he would have received from Cersei, but I'm sure she didn't help one bit.