Why do people consider Slaver's Bay unrealistic?

[Panos Targaryen]

A lot of people complain about Essos, and more specifically Slaver's Bay, being a ridiculously exotic place to the point where it's unrealistic, full of one-dimensional, mustache-twirling villains who are only there to make Daenerys look like the ultimate savior. People cite the extreme extravagance and evil of the slaver-nobles, weird customs (such as eating unborn puppies) etc as examples of this. Some people even say it shows Eurocentrism or even racist orientalism from GRRM.

However, if one looks at these things, he can find real-life examples for almost everything, from a variety of cultures throughout history.

Fighting pits, of course, existed in Roman times, and featured various weird and brutal forms of bloody entertainment, almost identical to the ones seen in the Ghiscari cities Dany visits. Not much more to say here.

They have them in Slaver's Bay, we had them in reality, so not unrealistic.

The various weird food also exists. There is a dish from the Philippines called Balut, which is basically boiled duck fetus. And in many places dogs are eaten too. So I don't see why people take issue with the way Ghiscari food is shown. There's nothing "unreal" or absurd about it.

The weird and exotic haircuts of the nobles, as ridiculous as they sound (even to me), bring to mind Ancient Egyptian nobles, who used hairstyles, jewels etc to show their status in society.

The extreme cruelty of their culture is also something that existed in real cultures based in slavery. Scourging, branding, all practiced by the Romans. The Walk of Punishment visited by Dany is similar to the way punished slaves were crucified en masse.

The taking of children from their families, the castrations, all real. The treatment of slaves was horrifically brutal in ancient Rome. Nothing mentioned in ASOIAF concerning their treatment is something you won't find in actual history, as terrible as that is.

And another thing a lot of people dislike about SB is the extreme cruelty that a lot of characters from there show. How exactly is that unrealistic? A culture based around slavery is bound to produce cruel individuals. Their primary form of entertainment is seeing people slaughter each other. That shows that the majority of people (minus the slaves I guess) have a sadistic streak to them. I don't find any characters encountered by Daenerys in her travels in SB unrealistic. Any noble from those parts is going to be scum, his entire wealth is based on owning and dehumanizing people. What do readers want? A kind and progressive slaver?

I think this idea of Ghiscari "culture" being unrealistic comes from two sources: Either people dislike Daenerys and want to consider her evil no matter what, even if that means defending child-murderers and slavers, or moral/cultural relativism to the point of stupidity.

Contrary to popular belief, not ALL cultures are good. There's nothing "euro centric" or racist about believing that. Daenerys may not have done a great job in her campaign to end slavery, but that doesn't make the scum of Slaver's Bay "misunderstood" or "seen only from Dany's POV, therefore we can't really know how they are as a people". Bullshit. We know enough about them, and we have real-life examples of most of their practices, so there's nothing contrived about them either. They could very well exist in our ancient world.

And because of the historical examples, we know that all the evil things we see happen in Slaver's Bay are real, and not Westerosi propaganda or Dany being an unreliable narrator. If we had an Essosi POV we'd probably see the same.

[Hippocras]

Yep. Based on real examples, and just evil enough for Dany too learn how to rule and make her mistakes before doing it for real in Westeros, where we actually DO care about the people she might have power over.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Any noble from those parts is going to be scum, his entire wealth is based on owning and dehumanizing people. What do readers want? A kind and progressive slaver?

:bowdown: :agree:. The Slavers are meant to be "evil" for the inexperienced Dany, and even though they are realistic like you said, there is some vibe of surrealism surrounding them so we won't empathize.

There is a good podcast I heard few years ago about Slaver's Bay, saying that Essos is actually based on the perception that people from medieval times had of foreign lands, decadent and over the top, hence, I guess GRRM is portraying the clichés and cartoonish ways so they can be easily disposable by the need of the plot. He didn't count on people actually caring about them, I guess :lol:

[Wmarshal]

They think it is unrealistic because of how black and whiteand face valued are only POV there has been.

[hollowcrown]

We haven't had a PoV from an Essossi character in Essos right now.

So we're basically getting a white, imperialist perspective on Slaver's Bay, from a bunch of characters who abhor the idea of slavery.

I'm sure if we got a Daario PoV, or even a Jorah PoV, everything would look a look different.

[MoIaF]

We haven't had a PoV from an Essossi character in Essos right now.

So we're basically getting a white, imperialist perspective on Slaver's Bay, from a bunch of characters who abhor the idea of slavery.

I'm sure if we got a Daario PoV, or even a Jorah PoV, everything would look a look different.

I think we should stay away from the "white imperialistic" vein, there are plenty of white slaves. GRRM did not make this racial regardless of what the show did.

[hollowcrown]

I think we should stay away from the "white imperialistic" vein, there are plenty of white slaves. GRRM did not make this racial regardless of what the show did.

The point is, we are seeing it from an outsiders perspective. Not all Volatenes, Ghiscari, Dothraki, Mereenese are 100% evil, raping, killing, slaving villains, they are people with hopes, dreams, living in a society we see as old fashioned and different. We're seeing it from the perspective of an outsider opposed to the regime. If we got an Essossi POV we would see everything far differently.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The point is, we are seeing it from an outsiders perspective. Not all Volatenes, Ghiscari, Dothraki, Mereenese are 100% evil, raping, killing, slaving villains, they are people with hopes, dreams, living in a society we see as old fashioned and different. We're seeing it from the perspective of an outsider opposed to the regime. If we got an Essossi POV we would see everything far differently.

Tyrion's, Barristan's and Quentyn's chapters already got us a lot more insight.

[Michael Herman]

The point is, we are seeing it from an outsiders perspective. Not all Volatenes, Ghiscari, Dothraki, Mereenese are 100% evil, raping, killing, slaving villains, they are people with hopes, dreams, living in a society we see as old fashioned and different. We're seeing it from the perspective of an outsider opposed to the regime. If we got an Essossi POV we would see everything far differently.

No, we wouldn't, there is literally no PoV that could be imagined that would make me sympathetic to slavers or the institution of slavery.

Any noble from those parts is going to be scum, his entire wealth is based on owning and dehumanizing people. What do readers want? A kind and progressive slaver?

Pretty much that, sure there people with hopes and dreams and whatever, but they're living entirely off the subjugation and abuse of the weak.

[Fightbringer]

im not sure if i agree that essos is one dimensional but i dont think just because they're slavers, they get a free pass at being cruel and evil. In the real world, there were plenty of slavers who would otherwise be said to be good people, half the founding fathers, pretty much any important roman politician or emperor, and loads of other important figures in the ancient world. There is a character in 12 years a slave, who is a slaver, but is also shown to be a good man who risks his life to save the main character. And he existed in real life.

I think GRRM would be the first to admit that people are more complicated than that. They're views regarding slavery might be changed if they were slavers themselves, but it doesnt neccesarily effect there entire personality

[stinky peasant]

as previously mentioned, there are real historical references to most of the bizarre stuff in essos. also, let's not forget, this is fantasy fiction. are the dragons "believable" enough? come on, enjoy the books, and let's not break down the cultures of secondary locations too much.

[King Zee]

my problem is economically the place doesn't make sense. Is there any city state whose entire economy was based on raising and selling slaves ? This is different from using slave labour for another economic activity like cotton or sugar cane.

[Lord Baalish]

No, we wouldn't, there is literally no PoV that could be imagined that would make me sympathetic to slavers or the institution of slavery.

You shouldn't become sympathetic to slavers, but you could see the different side. If we had an Essosi PoV I do believe we'd see the worse parts of Westeros as well. Is holding hostages and commanding around really that much different from slavery? Yes, they are not beat to death or otherwise brutalised, but you can't argue that they really have a free will.

[Lord Baalish]

my problem is economically the place doesn't make sense. Is there any city state whose entire economy was based on raising and selling slaves ? This is different from using slave labour for another economic activity like cotton or sugar cane.

Not that I know of in our history, however a couple of free cities are into slavery, big time, so it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that slavery lucrative enough to make a living off.

[Lord Reaver]

Yes, you can find examples of most of the things (though the stuff with babies covered in honey and left for bears or whatnot isn't something I can remember seeing).

The thing is, GRRM has taken ALL of these things and put them into a fairly small area/culture. Which makes it seem a bit...over the top.

Then you add the fact that he "cartoonizes" certain things, like cities having economies based almost purely around certain types of slaves, or slave soldiers with flamingo outfits. That's when it starts to just get silly.

[Hippocras]

my problem is economically the place doesn't make sense. Is there any city state whose entire economy was based on raising and selling slaves ? This is different from using slave labour for another economic activity like cotton or sugar cane.

Yes. The entire west African coast.

Before Europeans arrived there, trade was across the Sahara to North Africa. Slavery existed (Europeans did not invent it there) but is was small scale and slaves were basically low level family members, usually "won" by conquest. Their treatment generally was not particularly cruel.

When Europeans arrived, they were offered slaves as trade goods. That proved to be popular. So more and more wars started to capture slaves to sell at the coastal forts. The entire economy of the region shifted away from the Sahara to the coast, and the cities that grew there were entirely rooted in the slave trade.

[Dr. Qyburn]

my problem is economically the place doesn't make sense. Is there any city state whose entire economy was based on raising and selling slaves ? This is different from using slave labour for another economic activity like cotton or sugar cane.

:agree: especially Yunkai. Does Planetos really have that big of a demand in bed slaves?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Then you add the fact that he "cartoonizes" certain things, like cities having economies based almost purely around certain types of slaves, or slave soldiers with flamingo outfits. That's when it starts to just get silly.

It's actually that stuff that makes me roll my eyes. Even though, as was suggested, I find the entire economy to be unrealistic, it's the fact that it never should have gotten this bad, even within the story, that makes it so ridiculous. Guys fighting on stilts? Soldiers chained together? The Astapori, despite selling these dudes for hundreds of years, never building a failsafe into the training?

If he's going to pit Dany against over-the-top evil to make her look better in comparison, you know, fine. But some enterprising entity should have wiped these idiots out long before she even got there.

[Ame]

1. I agree GRRM isn't racist and he shouldn't be called racist just because of a flaw in writing.

2. Essos has no comparison with any culture; I will take your example of Rome.

You mentioned the crucifixtion along the Appian way lets compare that to what the slavers do.

The crucified slaves where all Spartacus' rebels; the penalty in Roman Law for a freeborn citizen who did the same crime was scourging and beheading; the murdered slaves Dany encountered commited the crime of being alive; but lets continue beyond punishment.

Gladiator games in ancient rome have about the same resemblance to starz as Ptolemaic Egypt does to First Dynasty Egypt (nothing). The price of a slave in Ancient Rome was at all points extremely high; the very cheapest known price is from a time when Romans faced down rebellions and invasions all over the empire; crushed them and returned with an unusually extreme number of slaves and it was for an old man; and was roughly the price of a car today.

Lets pretend it is a more stable period; and that you are purchasing a strong young man instead, you need to provide him with a good enough home to avoid losing strength, you need to feed and clothe him, train and arm him. That doesn't even factor in the fact that it is your responsibility not the states to prevent their escape.

Archaeology, economics, and what we know of prices in Ancient Roman take the Roman games to the point where it is just inconceivable that the games where two men go in one goes out.

Now lets take the games we see in ASOIAF and lets be blunt; it is always two men in one man leaves.

Now lets take treatment of the slaves and their possibilities in society.

In Ancient Rome slaves could and did reasonably look forward to being freed and freed slaves were an essential part of Roman society. Freed slaves often filled the Roman Equivalent of Ministry Heads, and where represented in every part of Roman Civilian Society from bakers to ship captains to as I said minsters. Even when still enslaved the emperors slaves were considered by Roman Women good enough catches for the emperor Claudius to have actually legislated some severe penalties for women who had affairs with or married his slaves without his consent.

In Essos society they have a lifetime as slaves to look forward to.

Finally in Ancient Rome when slaves where an unusually large portion of the population due to the wars of the late republic the slave population swelled to 1/3 (same as the civil war era American South). In Essos it is half.

Finally there are good things about Roman Society; what could your remember that is good about Essos? Slavery was an evil in ancient Rome like everywhere else; but the degree of evil shown by Essos involving slavery is to be blunt extreme.

It also isn't just Ancient Rome; mention any other society and you will find that it is not a shoe in for slavers bay.

Finally Roman Slaves performed functions other then being enslaved and sold; I have yet to see any economic activity anywhere in Slavers bay not either sex or slave selling related.

TLDR version-Essos has so far (at least before Ser Barristan noticed the cup bearers) been very lazy writing like Cersei PoV showing her to just find more ways to be evil; every historical society has had redeeming features while Essos doesn't.

I hope GRRM will either move Dany to Westeros or improve the writing on Essos to make it a more realistic and less purely evil society; either way while I love all of the ASOIAF books there are flaws in it's otherwise perfect writing; and those are Cersei PoV and Essos depictions.

It is a testament to Dany's character that despite the handicap her pov has in needing to deal with slavers bay that her PoV chapters are nearly the best in the series.

[Panos Targaryen]

:agree: especially Yunkai. Does Planetos really have that big of a demand in bed slaves?

No, but the Free Cities do. All those nobles, rich brothel owners etc. Makes perfect sense to me. And the Free Cities are more numerous and more populated than Westerosi cities, so the demand seems logical.