The death of Tywin and the feeling of game difficulty decay from IMPOSSIBRU to easy.

[sanzor]

After Tywin's death i felt like a big big big potentional climax went down.To me it seemed that it makes whatever contender especially outside of Westeros task too easy.to gain the IT.

Robert said that he married Cersei so that Tywin will have his back in case Targaryen "spawnlings"(or some word similar)come out and want his head.Now i know his death made possible all other moves:Varys+Illyrio+LF+Euron...but it kind of gave me the impression that Westeros feels a bit hollow.There isnt anymore one grand bastard that you wanna show him the finger "See you bastard i broke you and got the IT whatever army you had or your sweet son or your scheming Cersei".Now the Lannisters seem sheep that will be butchered (Red Wedding v2 for Daven-BWB,Tommen in city almost at boiling point,Mycerlla crippled,Cersei losing everything)...

The revenge that Dany will bring wont be sweet.The wolves wont have so much revenge either...

Tywin was the one that was holding outsiders at bay...by whatever means.Now everybody has no problem defying the IT.The Tyrells seem a mess....lord oaf Mace. seems a fool,the dornish dont have anyone to kill anymore...and are forced into conflict by the GC ...

I think that a good recovery of the Targaryen house means a great battle against its opposition.Practically Dany that has the biggest right to justice ...will come and find a desolate land (assuming Faegon comes and fights with the reach) and will have to deal with it.

Bolton and Frey or even LF seem to small or too "regional " to be counted..

I think Tywin died too fast...and we havn't got a badass anymore.My only hope is that the Tyrells and the Lannister will sort out their problems and oppose the contenders.

What do you think?

[iridescence]

Well there's still Euron if you need a really clear bad guy. But I think GRRM is smart enough to realize that the struggle for power is really about shades of grey, not good vs. evil. Who's the good guy between Dany and Aegon or the Tyrells and the Martells? None of them are terrible but they're all far from perfect. That makes it more interesting.

Tywin doomed himself by making almost everyone including his own son hate him just as Ned doomed himself by trying to completely ignore how the game is played for the sake of symbolic honor.

[Aidan Seaworth]

I think Tywin dying was not necessarily a bad thing. Tywin's death means that the strength of the Tyrell-lannister alliance is weakened and with Cersei being Cersei shit is going to go down, The alliance may break down, creating a power vacuum which would be interesting to see. :commie:

[iliasb]

I can see the point of Tywin's death being really anticlimatic. With his death the power of House Lannister destabilized. But with Kevan, who was the only 'strong' Lannister left, gone, the whole KL story is down. SO I think the center of gravity will move to the Wall or Mereen.

[John Suburbs]

It's probably been discussed before, but wasn't Tywin's death rather odd?

I'm no doctor, but it seems to me that a bolt to the belly just above the groin wouldn't kill him that quickly. It would pierce his bowels and maybe whatever connects the kidneys to the urethra, but wouldn't that be a long lingering death? Even if it broke open a major artery there would still be a few minutes at least, no?

I read somewhere that Tywin might already have been poisoned, which is why his body decomposed so quickly (and why he was on the crapper in the first place) but the timing of a sudden death by poisoning right at the time he is shot by Tyrion would be odd to say the least.

Any thoughts?

[Rippounet]

I'm no doctor, but it seems to me that a bolt to the belly just above the groin wouldn't kill him that quickly. It would pierce his bowels and maybe whatever connects the kidneys to the urethra, but wouldn't that be a long lingering death? Even if it broke open a major artery there would still be a few minutes at least, no?

Femoral artery. If you get a bad cut you die within minutes. And IIRC that's pretty much how long it takes for Tywin to die.

The human body can be incredibly resilient to some injuries, and incredibly vulnerable to others. That bolt landed in the right place, 'tis all. It's really not odd (on the contrary, it shows GRRM knows a bit about anatomy), our shock comes from the fact that Tywin was such a major player in the GoT.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I wouldn't have liked Tywin to die in a blaze of glory fighting Dany or something. He got what he deserved: being shot to death by his dwarf son while taking a shit, leaving a dead hooker in bed, no less. I mean, it doesn't get more undignified than that. It was supposed to be anticlimatic. Everyone expects the bad guy to die in some epic way, but GRRM turned that trope on its head and it was brilliant.

It also happened at the right time. The Lannisters peaked in Blackwater, from then they had to go down. And even without Tywin, Joffrey, Tyrion, Jaime and Kevan, GRRM has managed to keep the Lannisters in control of the Iron Throne for 5 books. Their downfall is long over due, in my opinion

[Needs More Salt]

It's probably been discussed before, but wasn't Tywin's death rather odd?

I'm no doctor, but it seems to me that a bolt to the belly just above the groin wouldn't kill him that quickly. It would pierce his bowels and maybe whatever connects the kidneys to the urethra, but wouldn't that be a long lingering death? Even if it broke open a major artery there would still be a few minutes at least, no?

I read somewhere that Tywin might already have been poisoned, which is why his body decomposed so quickly (and why he was on the crapper in the first place) but the timing of a sudden death by poisoning right at the time he is shot by Tyrion would be odd to say the least.

Any thoughts?

Yes, it would. You've got the mesenteric artery supplying blood to the intestines and organs and/or the abdominal aorta. And that's just the arteries! You've also got the inferior vena cava. The abdominal region has a very rich blood supply due to the proximity of the organs and digestive system.

[KoreNestis]

I wouldn't have liked Tywin to die in a blaze of glory fighting Dany or something. He got what he deserved: being shot to death by his dwarf son while taking a shit, leaving a dead hooker in bed, no less. I mean, it doesn't get more undignified than that. It was supposed to be anticlimatic. Everyone expects the bad guy to die in some epic way, but GRRM turned that trope on its head and it was brilliant.

I am also very pleased that the dignified Tywin Lannister died in the most undignified way possible. If I could applaud GRRM for only one circumstance happening in the series, it just might be this.

[Matoro]

If the beginning of the Song was about a game of thrones, the finale will be about magic; the Others, the Wall, the dragons. Death of Tywin was kind of end of an era - KL stopped being the most important location and the Iron Throne's power diminished greatly. The fate of the realm isn't anymore decided in King's Landing, it's decided in the Wall and Meereen and Winterfell.

[Mithras]

Can somebody remind me, which king or kingly man died a glorified death?

[Hippocras]

I wouldn't have liked Tywin to die in a blaze of glory fighting Dany or something. He got what he deserved: being shot to death by his dwarf son while taking a shit, leaving a dead hooker in bed, no less. I mean, it doesn't get more undignified than that. It was supposed to be anticlimatic. Everyone expects the bad guy to die in some epic way, but GRRM turned that trope on its head and it was brilliant.

It also happened at the right time. The Lannisters peaked in Blackwater, from then they had to go down. And even without Tywin, Joffrey, Tyrion, Jaime and Kevan, GRRM has managed to keep the Lannisters in control of the Iron Throne for 5 books. Their downfall is long over due, in my opinion

I agree.

It was also an opportunity for GRRM to make an important point about the game:

Tywin may have won, but his tactics left a rotting legacy. The stink of his corpse was the stink of terrorizing the Riverlands, of killing babies and letting others take the blame, same for the Red Wedding.

He created a situation in which no rules are left standing. And with the death of rules and laws there is no foundation for peace.

Tywin's death was perfect.

Furthermore it was a perfect counterpoint to Ned's death, because Ned's concept o ruling was the polar opposite of Tywin, and when he died is when justice and rule of law died. Ned ruled by building trust and respect. Tywin ruled by fear.

The next stage of the game is the result of the way Tywin played the game and the destruction of law, decency, trust.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Can somebody remind me, which king or kingly man died a glorified death?

In recent story? no one.

Aerys crapped himself before getting stabbed by his own KG.

Rhaegar was turned into mashed potatoes.

Robert was killed by a boar

Joffrey was poisoned and ended up looking like some pomegranate.

Aegon V died by probably some stupid move trying to get the dragons back.

[joluoto2]

I think one of George's points is revenge is empty. The Martells want their revenge though the people they want revenge on already are dead (Tywin, Lorch, Clegane). Daenerys want revenge on the ursurpers Eddard, Robert, Tywin, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully, but really it will be a revnge carried out on the decendants of the people who wronged her family. Revenge isn't a glorious thing, it's about sinking as low as the peole who wronged you in the first place.

[Hippocras]

I think one of George's points is revenge is empty. The Martells want their revenge though the people they want revenge on already are dead (Tywin, Lorch, Clegane). Daenerys want revenge on the ursurpers Eddard, Robert, Tywin, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully, but really it will be a revnge carried out on the decendants of the people who wronged her family. Revenge isn't a glorious thing, it's about sinking as low as the peole who wronged you in the first place.

This also

[Mithras]

In recent story? no one.

Aerys crapped himself before getting stabbed by his own KG.

Rhaegar was turned into mashed potatoes.

Robert was killed by a boar

Joffrey was poisoned and ended up looking like some pomegranate.

Aegon V died by probably some stupid move trying to get the dragons back.

Balon turned into a pulp and fed the crabs.

Renly was so damn cocksure when he was slain by a shadow.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Balon turned into a pulp and fed the crabs.

Renly was so damn cocksure when he was slain by a shadow.

Hah, the only kind of "cool" death happened to the less Kingly of them: Viserys.

[Mithras]

Hah, the only kind of "cool" death happened to the less Kingly of them: Viserys.

Oh that too. And Drogo was betrayed and turned into a vegetable.

[The Sleeper]

I suppose Tywin was the last of the old order going out, so there is a sense of the game being smaller and and the established and more majestic figures gone. Indeed the title of the next book feast of crows makes that point. However, was the pedestal the old figures were placed on justified? Not really. If anything the game has higher stakes now and no rules.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oh that too. And Drogo was betrayed and turned into a vegetable.

Robb, betrayed during his uncle wedding. Not very kingly either, although that will make him into some kind of legendary hero some day.