Could Orcs in Tolkien's subcreation be redeemed? And other obscure questions about Tolkien's Middle-Earth.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Okay, I'll bite.

Far more important than the redemption issue is the question of whether orcs could be given elocution lessons sufficient to rid them of their dreadfully rough and lower class way of speaking........ :leaving:

Tolkien was a linguist - his characters are speaking translated Westron. So he gave the Orcs rough words to go with boorish mannerisms.

(If you want posh villains in Tolkien, try Saruman and Smaug. The latter might as well be wearing a monocle).

[sologdin]

probably an exciting fan fiction to be written about the orc academic left in its noble fight to maintain tenure against budget-cutting sauron.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I'd love to see someone attempt to defend the allegation that Tolkien defined characters based upon their species. Anyone want to try?

I agree. and the point about the characters' personalities being based on racial stereotypes (albeit made up racial stereotypes) is dead on. dwarves are this, elves like that, and hobbits all act like hobbits.

[Jo498]

Isn't there a passage when the hobbits realize "Strider" is there to help them that it dawns on them that men are very different from each other, because before they only knew guys like Butterbur and the other Breelanders?

As someone wrote in the closed thread, in LotR we get to know so few dwarves and elves that these few are bound to be "stereotypical" in some ways. Gimli is proud, but he has nothing of the buffonish character shown in the movie or in many RPG stereotypes. Neither does he show the lust for gold and power like Thorin. I find his adoration of Galadriel rather awkward and am not quite sure what to make of the character. But apparently Tolkien tried to flesh him out more than all of the dwarves (except Thorin) in the Hobbit or Legolas.

For the hobbits there are several traits mentioned that all of them share and other where the three "tribes" are different from each other. For all of the five main hobbit characters it is claimed or shown that they are quite different from the average hobbit. With the Scouring of the Shire it is shown that hobbits can be evil, they can be petty collaborators, they can also show bravery one would not have expected. And they can also be rather rash and merciless as Merry and Pippin would have been, had not Frodo intervened.

So I'd say that the only two races of which we encounter a considerable number of characters, humans and hobbits are not following simple stereotypes.

[Ruin]

I would say that the Orcs could be redeemed AFTER Dagor Dagorath. When Morgoth is finally destroyed, sure why not? Of course, this could only happen if there were any Orc survivors. That, is a question, I can't answer.

After the Dagor Dagorath, the world is reborn and life is mended. That may imply that Orcs are returned to their previously uncorrupted forms & appearances.

[Callan S.]

Yeah, you could try to argue, that it's all the influence of Melkor and Sauron. But did you read about any orc, in all of Tolkiens work, who wasn't evil? Their only purpose is to kill. They are evil from the day they are born.

Yes, in real life, there is no thing as "being born evil". But this is not real life. Tolkien wanted them to be evil. So they are evil.

What about being born to 'cook dinner'?

I mean, it takes infrastructure to eat - nothing can be 'born to kill' unless something else attends all it's little needs.

Unless you're suggesting the orcs all die out because whatever was supplying their food and such is gone, then you have to acknowledge orcs were born to do more than just kill - some of it would be quite similar to humans and possibly especially elves.

Creatures who only exist when they are on camera and are threatening to kill are rediculously shallow stereotypes.

Then again our own instincts from millions of years is not to think about whether the lion has a home life, but to just think of it as a killer and no other aspect to it.

[Callan S.]

(If you want posh villains in Tolkien, try Saruman and Smaug. The latter might as well be wearing a monocle).

I think that's going to stay with me, now!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I had another thought as I'm doing a re-read of LotR. How do critics of Tolkien deal with the Ents? Quite clearly Tolkein is say with the Ents that wild places are important and deserving of protection. Now, he's not John Muir here but he'a walking a similar road. What criticism is offered of Tolkien's love of the wild woods?

[Larry of the Lawn]

I had another thought as I'm doing a re-read of LotR. How do critics of Tolkien deal with the Ents? Quite clearly Tolkein is say with the Ents that wild places are important and deserving of protection. Now, he's not John Muir here but he'a walking a similar road. What criticism is offered of Tolkien's love of the wild woods?

Tolkien was clearly an Environmental Justice Warrior.

[Gneisenau]

This thread about orcs reminds me of this great comic about philosophers playing DnD. http://existentialcomics.com/comic/23

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Gnei,

That was great. :)

[The Marquis de Leech]

I had another thought as I'm doing a re-read of LotR. How do critics of Tolkien deal with the Ents? Quite clearly Tolkein is say with the Ents that wild places are important and deserving of protection. Now, he's not John Muir here but he'a walking a similar road. What criticism is offered of Tolkien's love of the wild woods?

The Ents are:

- Tolkien doing a Take That at William Shakespeare's Macbeth.

- Simultaneously a comment on the neglect of the environment and its inevitable doom (the Ents have no children).

[Talleyrand]

On the idea of orc redemption I'm pretty sure that there's a battle in the Silmarillion where it says members of every race fought on both sides. Surely this would count as a little bit of redemption for some of them if they did fight against Morgoth, unless Orcs really are just corrupted elves then I'm not sure if they would count as a separate race

[Jo498]

I do not think Elves ever fought on the side of Morgoth. There were kinslayings, so Elves fought and killed Elves, but Morgoth always was the arch-enemy. In the War of wrath at the end of the 1st age the host of Valinor (including the Vanyar Elves, some Maiar and maybe even Valar) destroy Morgoths forces and stronghold. No orc allies, for all I know.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On the idea of orc redemption I'm pretty sure that there's a battle in the Silmarillion where it says members of every race fought on both sides. Surely this would count as a little bit of redemption for some of them if they did fight against Morgoth, unless Orcs really are just corrupted elves then I'm not sure if they would count as a separate race

I think we shouldn't take that quote at face value. I think it refers to Elves, Men, and Dwarves only - for starters, I have a hard time seeing Ents taking the field at the Last Alliance, let alone fighting for Sauron.

[Jo498]

Are Ents even mentioned in the 1st age accounts?

I think Ents are cool and fit wonderfully with the "conservative environmentalism" of Tolkien (and the corresponding pessimism in the face of "orcish" progress), but do they really fit so well into Middle-Earth? Even less into 1st age Beleriand than into end of 3rd age war of the Ring...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Jo,

Yes. As the Dwarves retreated from their defeat by Beren's forces after they sacked Menegroth "Shepards of the trees" emerged to cut off their escape. They are also refered to obliquely in the story of Aule's creation of the Dwarves.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I thought the Ents were created because Yavanna was worried the Dwarves would destroy the forests.

[Arataniello]

On the idea of orc redemption I'm pretty sure that there's a battle in the Silmarillion where it says members of every race fought on both sides. Surely this would count as a little bit of redemption for some of them if they did fight against Morgoth, unless Orcs really are just corrupted elves then I'm not sure if they would count as a separate race

That was the Battle of the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age. "All things were divided that day, except for the Elves" or something similar. Since the history is written from the perspective of the Free People, its extremely unlikely to be intended to mean that Orcs fought against Sauron. More interestingly, which Dwarves fought for Sauron?

[Crom Dubh]

That was the Battle of the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age. "All things were divided that day, except for the Elves" or something similar. Since the history is written from the perspective of the Free People, its extremely unlikely to be intended to mean that Orcs fought against Sauron. More interestingly, which Dwarves fought for Sauron?

Might be ones from the East which fell under his political influence, similar to the Men of Rhun? Could also be certain Dwarf polities with long-standing grudges against the Elves who allied with Sauron in order to strike against said pointy-ears.