Eddard Stark thoughts...

[AboveAllOthers]

The following is not a conspiracy theory, and I am not wishlisting for Ned to return in any form to the story. These are just open ended thoughts and a distrubance in the force.

After browsing the forums/internet for some time the general thought is that Ned Stark was a hapless victim who was not clever or cunning enough to play the game. He seems to be accepted as a country bumpkin whose actions and death serve as a major plot device and also to help serve as a moral foil to those that do play the "game." I believe that this is a valid interpretation and almost certainly is the case.

With that being said, I cannot help but feel that there will be more to Ned's story by the time this is done. A couple things have always stood out to me that seem to undermine the "Honorable/Dumb Ned Stark" depiction. This is only relevant if some theories posted in this forum somehow come to fruition:

1) He keeps the parentage of Jon Snow a secret at the expense of his honor (in Catelyn's eyes). He alone holds the single most important piece of information (potentially) in the entire story. And he never reveals this. The easiest answer is due to his honor. GRRM has never made things easy. What are the chances that Varys knew this secret as well? I would expect Varys to have his spiders in motion the moment R&L slip away to the Tower of Joy. Is there more to the black cell scenes that we currently know?

2) He chooses Arya and Sansa to journey with him to KL. Sansa is a little more difficult to explain beyond the obvious betrothal. But I think Arya is a curious choice. And then he introduces Arya to Syrio. Could be complete coincidence, could be a calculated move. Ned knew his children. All father's do. Ned is clearly fostering Arya's talents/desires?

3) Ned makes no attempt to dissuade Jon Snow from going to the wall. With full knowledge of his true identity (if you follow the R+L=Snow theory). A line from the show (I know we should not cross the streams...) also stands out to me. As Ned and Jon Snow part ways for the last time Ned tells Jon- "the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother, I promise." Could be simple forshaowing, could be a hint that Ned knows when he plans on seeing Jon next. Not when he gets home, but when Ned gets to the wall (of course the unpredictable Joffrey intervenses). He does not say "when I return" or "when I get home." That is what I say to my daughter- "I will see you when I get home." We know that the producers have a general understanding of the end game, and we know that since the show is a condensed version of the story they are having to drop the clues in slightly different ways then GRRM is able to in his novels. Is Ned suggesting something? Is the final phrase "I promise" another hint about Jon Snow and Ned's plans and understanding of a larger picture.

4) The fact that Ned even bothers to go south. He knows what that means. As the story has continued, the Starks have a history of avoiding the south at all costs because their fate seems to be death in the south. Some way, shape, or form it happens. Ned knows this. He knows this and took his TWO daughters south as well. Why place his daughters in such danger. He also could have probably surmised that in the event of his death, his honorable son Robb would come looking for answers. Easy enough prediction.

5) Finally, the scene that gets me the most is when Ned confronts Cersei. What a JV (sports reference) move by Eddard. If you follow the country bumpkin theory then this works. Or, if we give Ned a little more credit this becomes hard to explain. He was mentored by Jon Aryn. Someone who was savy and adept enough to orchestrate a successful rebellion and the establishment of a new dynasty. Yes, Jon did ultimately fall victim to the game, but he was clever enough to do significant things. Ned had to of learned something from his mentor. He should have picked up some of his tricks, or at least been aware enough to know that once he is in KL the rules change and the game is afoot. Yet he seemingly does the opposite. Makes no attempt to be subtle in his discovery of the bastards of Robert. He then confronts one of the most dangerous women in the kingdoms with a volatile piece of information, all the while keeping the parentage of Jon Snow in his back pocket. This combination just blows my mind! He knew TOO MUCH to fall victim to the game so easily.

I have nothing concrete to offer. I think there is a small chance that Ned's actions in the first novel are much more calculated then we initially interpret. Is it possible that he did much more thne we think to set his children in motion. His children seem to be headed to some pretty significant events/revelations. Could he have sacrificed himself (in regards to letting himself become imprisoned) to put his own plans in motion, and then we can view his beheading as his own miscalculation about the nature of Joffrey, which definately caught everyone by surprise.

Tear this up, your not going to hurt my feelings.

[Loose Bolton]

Well a couple of things--I agree, I don't think the bumpkin framing of Ned is correct, and time indeed will tell, even from Tywin's (his opposite in many ways) perspective: let me explain.

Ned Stark is not Barristan Selmy. He's not wed to honor above all, we've seen him extend kindness and mercy over honor.

Tywin's goal is the Lannister legacy. It still remains to be seen whether Ned Stark's legacy will be stronger than Tywin's. A clear theme that I have picked up is that these brilliant players of the game are leaving a bankrupt generation in their wake. Tywin's children are failing, and it seems unlikely that he will have an heir at the end of this story. Furthermore, the legacy of the Lannisters, without some significant changes, should Westeros survive, will not be a positive one. The Lannisters will be remembered for Tywin's betraying Aerys, Jamie the Kingslayer, Cersei the slut, and Tyrion the mad imp (not to mention joffrey).

The Stark's legacy can still be salvaged. Robb Stark died as a legend. There's still a chance that the line succeeds.

The endgame may indeed show that the basic decency of Stark actually preserves the name in history far more effectively than the Lannister conniving. We have to look at it as a multi-generational game. Ned lost the battle, but it's possible that his decency, and the family he created, will win in the end, over the absolute train-wreck that is the Lannister clan.

Perhaps Ned was not suited to King's Landing at that time and place, but it may prove that the Starks are better suited to the world, in the long run. They are the oldest family on record, after all.

[AboveAllOthers]

An additional thought I meant to post-

Is there an analogy to Ned Stark and some other significant literary characters. GRRM is outspoken in his admiration of LoTR and how the ending of the LoTR is something he admired.

Could Ned be GRRM's Gandalf? Someone who gave an outward appearance of frailty/simplicity/weakness but in reality had much more to offer then anyone realized. Gandalf was the character who put the final pieces in motion in LoTR.

I also see strong parallels between ASOIAF and the Dune series. In this case Ned sharing qualities with Duke Leto Atreides, including the same fate but whose children went on to much greater destiny's.

[The_Leech_Lord]

One thing I've always wondered is how much of Westeros actually believes the Lannisters claim that Eddard was guilty of treason?

[The Santa of House Claus]

Well a couple of things--I agree, I don't think the bumpkin framing of Ned is correct, and time indeed will tell, even from Tywin's (his opposite in many ways) perspective: let me explain.

Ned Stark is not Barristan Selmy. He's not wed to honor above all, we've seen him extend kindness and mercy over honor.

Tywin's goal is the Lannister legacy. It still remains to be seen whether Ned Stark's legacy will be stronger than Tywin's. A clear theme that I have picked up is that these brilliant players of the game are leaving a bankrupt generation in their wake. Tywin's children are failing, and it seems unlikely that he will have an heir at the end of this story. Furthermore, the legacy of the Lannisters, without some significant changes, should Westeros survive, will not be a positive one. The Lannisters will be remembered for Tywin's betraying Aerys, Jamie the Kingslayer, Cersei the slut, and Tyrion the mad imp (not to mention joffrey).

The Stark's legacy can still be salvaged. Robb Stark died as a legend. There's still a chance that the line succeeds.

The endgame may indeed show that the basic decency of Stark actually preserves the name in history far more effectively than the Lannister conniving. We have to look at it as a multi-generational game. Ned lost the battle, but it's possible that his decency, and the family he created, will win in the end, over the absolute train-wreck that is the Lannister clan.

Perhaps Ned was not suited to King's Landing at that time and place, but it may prove that the Starks are better suited to the world, in the long run. They are the oldest family on record, after all.

Very well said. And I will add this, I do believe that GRRM will, in the end, have the good guys winning. Not in the traditional sense or ways, of course, but in the end, the good guys will prevail. It is already starting to happen, to paraphrase Gandalf, "the tide has turned." The Lannisters are starting to fall, Dany has seemingly decided to come to Westeros... eventually, and it seems likely that the Stark children are in the right position to make a come back in order to finish off the Lannisters, Boltons, and Freys.

[Shireen Shireen]

I love it OP.

A poster once said on this forum that he/she wanted Cersei to live long enough to find out about F+L=J, so she could realise that Ned fooled them all. I think Ned did some things that will echo through history.

One thing I've always wondered is how much of Westeros actually believes the Lannisters claim that Eddard was guilty of treason?

Given the unpopularity of the Queen and Joff, the spread of the incest rumour and the Lannister looks of Cersei's children, I think there would be plenty of quiet sympathy for him.

[Fightbringer]

One thing I've always wondered is how much of Westeros actually believes the Lannisters claim that Eddard was guilty of treason?

seems to me that its presented as something a lot of people have sympathy for, but really depends what side your on. Those in the Baratheon (both stannis and renly's camp) seem to think the execution of Ned was unjust, and that what he was doing wasnt treason, but the right thing. Obviously the northerners (and the riverlanders) take that view even more strongly, and there is quite a lot pro northern sentiment in the vale, which presumably translates into sympathy for ned (yohn royce especially, who was reasonably tight with the starks) wouldnt be suprised if the dornish felt a similar way about it, even though they probably care less about it, and its hasnt really been mentioned by the dornish characters so far.

Amongst the influential people at least those on Joffrey/Tommen's side generally seem to be either people who are smart and accept ned wasnt commiting treason, but side with the lannisters anyway, mostly for there own benefit, but also because of there sense of duty with some. Those who do seem to believe ned wasnt commiting treason are generally presented as ignorant characters.

But this is just amongst the nobility by and large

[AboveAllOthers]

Touching upon some other theories and trying to tie Ned to them...

If you believe that there could be a connection between the Stark family and the Others as evidence by their warging, direwolves, ice/dark magic abilities and such (story of the Night King)...and that perhaps Ned was aware of this.

Could the actions of Ned be in anticipation of a future conflict between fire/ice? He was putting his children + Jon Snow into positions to participate/influence this conflict. So his scheming goes beyond the game of thrones but deals with the much large fate of the Starks/Others/magical conflict to come. Does this connect Varys to Ned if Varys is a potential agent of these forces? How convenient for Varys to convince Ned to go to the wall where Jon would be waiting. This might tie back into the choice words Ned uses in saying his goodbye to Jon Snow before departing to Kings Landing.

Some theories suggest Varys is a faceless man and that the FM could be agitating the situation for the Others.

Varys tell Ned that his actions are for the good of the realm. Nothing should appeal more to the honorable Ned then this. Well chosen words on Varys part. There is also a strong possibility of FM being present in the black cells. Seems to be ample opportunity to Varys/FM and Ned to get on the same page in some way.

[Beorn Snow]

I don´t think there is a super plot going on in Ned´s head. If he knew he was going to die I don´t think taking his daughters there serves any brilliant strategic purpose, not for the game of thrones, not for the battle of ice and fire.

But.

Ned is no country-bumpkin. His enemies were often more clever, always more lucky. Lannisters were in many ways lucky where Ned was unlucky. The boar had a convenient timing, it was hardly the first time Robert went hunting while drunk?

[Lady Woodland]

I love it OP.

A poster once said on this forum that he/she wanted Cersei to live long enough to find out about F+L=J, so she could realise that Ned fooled them all. I think Ned did some things that will echo through history.

Given the unpopularity of the Queen and Joff, the spread of the incest rumour and the Lannister looks of Cersei's children, I think there would be plenty of quiet sympathy for him.

Please excuse my ignorance what is F+L=J who is F? by the way love the swimming kangaroo avatar pic (sorry off topic) it's just so rare. & totally agree btw.

[kiasyd]

One thing I've always wondered is how much of Westeros actually believes the Lannisters claim that Eddard was guilty of treason?

Throughout all the books following Ned's death, he is referred respectfully by everyone - including adversaries. Now that I think about it, the only person to actually show disdain for him is Dany. Go figure. :rolleyes:

[The_Leech_Lord]

I think the purpose for Ned was to give us ideas about Lyanna, and show that the story differs markedly from conventional fantasy stories. I dont think there's any deep plan in his head.

[The_Leech_Lord]

We have no info on how Dorne/ Highgarden thinks. Also since the Vale didnt join in on the fighting I could imagine the Vale lords and smallfolk taking this as indication that Lysa didnt believe her own sister's husband. Besides, for some small time( before Lannisters turned bad in public eyes) I can imagine that the smallfolk believed Joff

[AboveAllOthers]

I do not think Ned knew he was going to die.

I am in the camp that his execution surprised everyone. That is an important plot point because it reveals the cruelty, malice, unpredictable, and uncontrollable nature of Joffrey. Which serves to fuel later events.

As for a superplot, maybe that is a stretch. But lets say their is no superplot, and that all the events that put the Starks in their current positions, most notably Arya, Bran, and Jon Snow, (don't count out Sansa either) are all sheer coincidence/fate. Is that any more of a stretch. Is this ultimately a story about fate and destiny?

[benalapin]

They are the oldest family on record, after all.

Nope, Daynes are 10,000 years old.

Touching upon some other theories and trying to tie Ned to them...

If you believe that there could be a connection between the Stark family and the Others as evidence by their warging, direwolves, ice/dark magic abilities and such (story of the Night King)...and that perhaps Ned was aware of this.

Could the actions of Ned be in anticipation of a future conflict between fire/ice? He was putting his children + Jon Snow into positions to participate/influence this conflict. So his scheming goes beyond the game of thrones but deals with the much large fate of the Starks/Others/magical conflict to come. Does this connect Varys to Ned if Varys is a potential agent of these forces? How convenient for Varys to convince Ned to go to the wall where Jon would be waiting. This might tie back into the choice words Ned uses in saying his goodbye to Jon Snow before departing to Kings Landing.

Some theories suggest Varys is a faceless man and that the FM could be agitating the situation for the Others.

Varys tell Ned that his actions are for the good of the realm. Nothing should appeal more to the honorable Ned then this. Well chosen words on Varys part. There is also a strong possibility of FM being present in the black cells. Seems to be ample opportunity to Varys/FM and Ned to get on the same page in some way.

Even if this were the case, it would be hard to prove it. We were in Ned's head for a lot of the first book -- why doesn't he think of this? You could argue that he doesn't think about R+L equalling J, but that is a case of trauma for him, something he would prefer not to think about. If he indeed made calculated decisions which are not emotional memories like ToJ, why do we not read him thinking about those decisions?

There are explanations for this, of course, like GRRM not wanting to reveal important plot details so soon. But that is just poor writing, if that is the case.

Let's say that Ned did make calculated decisions determining the fates of his family members in the overarching plot of ASOIAF. How will we ever find this out? How will we know it was Ned who put them in the right positions?

[AboveAllOthers]

Nope, Daynes are 10,000 years old.

Even if this were the case, it would be hard to prove it. We were in Ned's head for a lot of the first book -- why doesn't he think of this? You could argue that he doesn't think about R+L equalling J, but that is a case of trauma for him, something he would prefer not to think about. If he indeed made calculated decisions which are not emotional memories like ToJ, why do we not read him thinking about those decisions?

There are explanations for this, of course, like GRRM not wanting to reveal important plot details so soon. But that is just poor writing, if that is the case.

Let's say that Ned did make calculated decisions determining the fates of his family members in the overarching plot of ASOIAF. How will we ever find this out? How will we know it was Ned who put them in the right positions?

Strong points here. In looking at the POVs nearly all of the great schemers (Varys, Littlefinger, Tywin, Matriarch of the Tyrells) DO NOT have POVs. That is GRRMs way of hiding the schemes so we do not have exactly what you mentioned. If Ned was a schemer, we should have more to work with then we currently do because we had access to what was going on inside his head.

Yet could the "promise me, Ned" thoughts be the hint to a larger scheme/plan. A possible suggestion that Jon Snow is the Prince that is Promised (this is another theory in the forum not mine). So therefore Ned is in on the big picture and working towards it.

Another question that has shown up is whether or not their is greater significance to the Winterfell crypts and the possibility that Rhaegars famous harp (or some other evidence) is in Lyanna's tomb as evidence of the parentage of Jon Snow. Ned would have been responsible for placing the harp. If so, what a great risk to take and what great foresight on his part. Again suggesting that Ned is more involved then we think.

As for how will we ever know. GRRM has stated that not everything will be answered, and that some elements of the story will be left unsolved and for us to determine/theorize about. Ned certainly would not care if anyone ever knew, so I doubt he will have left behind a tell all letter or book for us.

[reekdasneak]

This was a great read OP. I always liked Ned and i thought he was smarter than he let on, my only problem with him is he trusted LF too much! Never trust a guy who wants your girl.

[jet199]

Ned's big mistake was not warning Cersei. It was trusting Littlefinger and Varys too much. What's more Varys and LF both go out of their way to make Ned feel like he is out of his depth and a fool so he is not reliable when he is judging himself in the black cells. Certainly the idea that Ned telling Cersei lead to Robert's death is complete BS. Robert's death was either an accident or it was planned well beforehand.

[AboveAllOthers]

Ned's big mistake was not warning Cersei. It was trusting Littlefinger and Varys too much. What's more Varys and LF both go out of their way to make Ned feel like he is out of his depth and a fool so he is not reliable when he is judging himself in the black cells. Certainly the idea that Ned telling Cersei lead to Robert's death is complete BS. Robert's death was either an accident or it was planned well beforehand.

I believe that Robert's death was a seperate Lannister/Cersei scheme. Let's say Robert was not killed by the boar. What are Robert's options once Ned talks to him?

Ned still probably ends up in hot water as the Lannisters/Cersei try to silence him or they manipulate the situation. That is what Jamie Lannister tried to do but his own honor and desire for a clean kill kept Ned alive. Hard to predict.

Alternatively, yes the plot may have been planned well beforehand, but the realization that Ned was not subtely snooping around could have put the plot to kill Robert in motion.

And if Ned is in fact a schemer, why let on to Varys and Littlefinger that you are smarter then you look? Ned could have been playing the dumb card to full effect, using the weakness of his enemies (their belief in the slow wits of northmen) against them. Everyone knows that Varys and Littlefinger are schemers, and thus everyone thinks they are either responsible for everything or always up to something, and therefore attracting unnecessary attention to themselves. Varys has to go out of his way at times to give the impression that he is NOT a schemer.

[Lord Reaver]

An additional thought I meant to post-

Is there an analogy to Ned Stark and some other significant literary characters. GRRM is outspoken in his admiration of LoTR and how the ending of the LoTR is something he admired.

Could Ned be GRRM's Gandalf? Someone who gave an outward appearance of frailty/simplicity/weakness but in reality had much more to offer then anyone realized. Gandalf was the character who put the final pieces in motion in LoTR.

I also see strong parallels between ASOIAF and the Dune series. In this case Ned sharing qualities with Duke Leto Atreides, including the same fate but whose children went on to much greater destiny's.

I'm not sure I agree with Ned being a Gandalf-analogy. I don't really think such a thing exists. The closest I think would be Maester Aemon.

Now, Leto Atreides, on the other hand, him I definitely can see similarities to in Ned. Now, if only his son had gone the Paul route, inspired by his father's teachings of honor, yet sprinkled with a healthy dose of pragmatism, we could have had something. Instead he went and got himself killed. Ah well.