Marwyn the Mage - Dragon Theory

[Mikkel]

Yeah, but she will probably still listen.

Maybe. He's not hot so she's more likely to dismiss him ;)

Yes, I'm mostly kidding but she does admit to herself she'd be more inclined to consider Quentyn's proposal if he'd been attractive (when she unfavorably compares him to Gerris Drinkwater).

Anyway, yeah she'll probably listen unless she has one of her "dragonz, fuyah and bluhd no looking back k?" moments.

[bent branch]

Marwyn value is not in his knowledge of dragons, that is what Tyrion is for. What Marwyn knows is prophecy. Marwyn claims to have found three missing pages from Daenys the Dreamer's book of prophecies. I think it is from Marwyn that we'll finally have the AA/PTWP/3HoD prophecies in complete form rather than the bits and pieces we have received so far.

[Hippocras]

Marwyn value is not in his knowledge of dragons, that is what Tyrion is for. What Marwyn knows is prophecy. Marwyn claims to have found three missing pages from Daenys the Dreamer's book of prophecies. I think it is from Marwyn that we'll finally have the AA/PTWP/3HoD prophecies in complete form rather than the bits and pieces we have received so far.

I like this idea. If he is actually going to help Dany that is.

It is also very significant that he now has all of Sam's news from the North.

[Lady Woodland]

Marwyn value is not in his knowledge of dragons, that is what Tyrion is for. What Marwyn knows is prophecy. Marwyn claims to have found three missing pages from Daenys the Dreamer's book of prophecies. I think it is from Marwyn that we'll finally have the AA/PTWP/3HoD prophecies in complete form rather than the bits and pieces we have received so far.

Ooh I like this, where did this info come from?

With meeting up with Dany again it may depend on who is counselling/advising her. She trusted MMD on Jorah's advise of his knowledge of Maesters, she has had time to deal with her losses & she has her Dragon's as a result of that encounter. It will be interesting to see what will happen with her story & character development.

[TheWitch]

Although I do think something dodgy is going on in the Citadel (it would be obvious that the only scientific institution in Westeros would have an issue with magic), I think the point that we have only heard the citadel is covering up something from Marwyn is important. Personally, I don't trust him.

[bent branch]

Ooh I like this, where did this info come from?

With meeting up with Dany again it may depend on who is counselling/advising her. She trusted MMD on Jorah's advise of his knowledge of Maesters, she has had time to deal with her losses & she has her Dragon's as a result of that encounter. It will be interesting to see what will happen with her story & character development.

We learn this in an Asha Chapter. When Asha is talking with her uncle, Rodrik "The Reader" Harlaw, he tells her that he is reading a book about lost books written by Marwyn, where Marwyn makes the claim of finding three missing pages from Daenys' Book of Prophecy.

ETA: Found it. It's in Chapter 11-AFFC.

[Lady Woodland]

We learn this in an Asha Chapter. When Asha is talking with her uncle, Rodrik "The Reader" Harlaw, he tells her that he is reading a book about lost books written by Marwyn, where Marwyn makes the claim of finding three missing pages from Daenys' Book of Prophecy.

ETA: Found it. It's in Chapter 11-AFFC.

thanks I'll look it over tonight & book mark it cheers. :cheers:

[Mithras]

We learn this in an Asha Chapter. When Asha is talking with her uncle, Rodrik "The Reader" Harlaw, he tells her that he is reading a book about lost books written by Marwyn, where Marwyn makes the claim of finding three missing pages from Daenys' Book of Prophecy.

ETA: Found it. It's in Chapter 11-AFFC.

Isn't it suspicious for him to find only the three missing pages of that book? Especially for a guy who knows that Citadel is a dangerous place to pursue these magical/prophetic/heretic studies. I think he might have the whole book but only mention the harmless pages due to obvious editorial reasons.

[Hippocras]

Isn't it suspicious for him to find only the three missing pages of that book? Especially for a guy who knows that Citadel is a dangerous place to pursue these magical/prophetic/heretic studies. I think he might have the whole book but only mention the harmless pages due to obvious editorial reasons.

Interesting.

[The Mother of The Others]

So maybe Marwyn's rush is a gold rush (to be the first to mine the magical gold from out of the dragons before the Citadel's representatives get there to scrub away the magic and shut it down. Like how on CSI they want to get there before the crime scene has been contaminated so they can get the most useful clues.

[tze]

But who would seriously remember a name they heard once three years ago, especially after everything else that's happened to her.

Given his scholarly specialty, I think it's pretty likely that Marwyn would want to discuss the circumstances of the dragons' hatching with everyone who was present (Dany, Jorah, the bloodriders, Irri/Jhiqui, etc.). The fact that a godswife of the Lamb Men named Mirri Maz Duur was burned on the pyre that hatched the dragons is the sort of thing you'd expect people to mention, and all it would take to jog someone's memory is for Marwyn to innocently/unthinkingly note the "coincidence" that he just so happened to have once taught a godswife of the Lamb Men named Mirri Maz Duur. (Bringing up MMD could even jog someone's memory without Marwyn admitting to their connection.)

Marwyn was discussed in a rather memorable context in AGOT:

Ser Jorah Mormont spoke up. “A maester?”

“Marwyn, he named himself,” the woman replied in the Common Tongue. “From the sea. Beyond the sea. The Seven Lands, he said. Sunset Lands. Where men are iron and dragons rule. He taught me this speech.”

“A maester in Asshai,” Ser Jorah mused. “Tell me, Godswife, what did this Marwyn wear about his neck?”

“A chain so tight it was like to choke him, Iron Lord, with links of many metals.”

The knight looked at Dany. “Only a man trained in the Citadel of Oldtown wears such a chain,” he said, “and such men do know much of healing.”

Not only does Jorah keep repeating Marwyn's name (and people who do that are more likely to remember that name later on), but he specifically asked questions about Marwyn as part of the "investigation" into MMD's healing capabilities, and by extension, her reliability as a healer. That she studied with a maester is implicitly a major reason why Dany entrusts Mirri with Drogo's wound. Given what ended up happening there, there's a decent chance that Jorah and Dany will remember Marwyn's name where they wouldn't had the name just been casually mentioned in a less-important/memorable context.

I think there are a number of potential plot avenues for Marwyn to serve. Providing dragon knowledge is one possibility (possibly even just for the reader's benefit, not necessarily for Dany's), given that we're told Marwyn got his "Marwyn the Mage" nickname

after spending eight years in the east mapping distant lands, searching for lost books, and studying with warlocks and shadowbinders

When Griff tells Tyrion to write down everything he knows about dragons, Tyrion thinks about how

What he really wanted was the complete text of The Fires of the Freehold, Galendro’s history of Valyria. No complete copy was known to Westeros, however; even the Citadel’s lacked twenty-seven scrolls. They must have a library in Old Volantis, surely. I may find a better copy there, if I can find a way inside the Black Walls to the city’s heart.

A maester who spent 8 years searching for lost books beyond the Narrow Sea might very well have found a complete copy of "The Fires of the Freehold", and who knows what information might have been contained in those lost 27 scrolls. For that matter, maybe Marwyn found a copy of "Blood and Fire/The Death of Dragons", or Septon Barth's "Unnatural History", or some other dragon-related work that Tyrion never had (full) access to. Given the MMD situation, and the accompanying unlikelihood that Dany will end up listening to what Marwyn has to say, regardless of his strong knowledge base, it's possible that GRRM wants to position Marwyn as a dragon-knowledge counterpoint to Tyrion---having Marwyn play Patchface to Tyrion's Melisandre, if you will.

But I think there are plenty of ways for Marwyn to affect the plot that have nothing to do (per se) with dragons. Marwyn was supposedly "studying with warlocks and shadowbinders" during his travels. We know from Mirri Maz Duur that Marwyn spent time in Asshai, which explains his studies with shadowbinders. But if Marwyn was also studying with warlocks, then that points to him spending time in Qarth. (Hell, maybe he studied with Pyat Pree, or even the Undying!) Marwyn could provide a very different, (and potentially invaluable) perspective on the whole Qarth/Undying situation from the one we got in Dany's POV. He could also potentially give information on MMD's skillset, what was going on with the whole blood ritual, the situation on the pyre, whether or not MMD had any prophetic abilities---things that could recontextualize a good amount of what happened in Dany's AGOT and ACOK arcs. ("What do you mean, Mirri gave you a prophecy? She was never able to see the future!" "Wait, so you were only able to enter the fire after the spellsinging witch sang, and you don't realize the significance of that?" "I saw firemages climbing fiery ladders in Qarth ten years ago, so anyone who told you otherwise was clearly lying." "The Undying of Qarth always require life force as payment for their prophecies. How did you not ask about that before going in there?" Et cetera, et cetera.) And given that Marwyn apparently uses glass candles, he could clarify the Quaithe situation. Hell, maybe he even knows Quaithe. There have been stranger coincidences in ASOIAF.

It's also possible that Marwyn is meant to intersect with Moqorro in some way. We know Moqorro had Victarion throw Maester Kerwin overboard, seemingly blaming him for poisoning Victarion's hand. Given the overwhelming likelihood that the dusky woman is the real poisoner, perhaps Moqorro saw some maester-related danger to Dany in his fires, and jumped to a number of incorrect conclusions? It's very plausible that Marwyn would react very poorly to the revelation that Dany burned his former student alive. And Moqorro is certainly due for some vision misinterpretation, given the nature of prophecy in ASOIAF and given Moqorro's thus-far excellent vision track record.

The whole Marwyn/Dany situation actually reminds me of the Ser Alliser Thorne/Tyrion situation in ACOK. Thorne was sent to bring word of the Others to King's Landing because Mormont believed Thorne was well-situated to be believed, being "a knight, highborn, anointed, with old friends at court, altogether harder to ignore than a glorified crow.” But it turned out that Thorne was the absolute worst choice for this mission because the person he ended up having to convince of the Others' existence, Tyrion, had a preexisting reason to hate and mistrust him (their antagonistic interactions during Tyrion's time visiting the Wall). The person who was sent to bring word of the Others looked like the perfect choice but, given the particular circumstances, turned out to be the one person guaranteed to be ignored. Now, we have Marwyn heading to Dany, bringing word of the Others. At first glance he seems well-situated to be believed, given his intentions (to help Dany) and his interest in dragons. But it turns out that the person Marwyn has to convince of the Others' existence, Dany, has a preexisting reason to hate and mistrust him (his association with her enemy, Mirri Maz Duur), so we could very well have in Marwyn/Dany a repeat of Thorne's failed Other-related mission to King's Landing.

What Marwyn knows is prophecy. Marwyn claims to have found three missing pages from Daenys the Dreamer's book of prophecies. I think it is from Marwyn that we'll finally have the AA/PTWP/3HoD prophecies in complete form rather than the bits and pieces we have received so far.

I agree that those missing pages from Daenys the Dreamer are likely to be relevant, but I think it's unlikely those pages contain the full AA/TPWP prophecy. Mel claims this prophecy was originally written "in ancient books of Asshai", and while I'm absolutely open to Mel being incredibly wrong, it's pretty weird that Daenys Targaryen gave a prophecy that a bunch of people in Essos became obsessed with but which the Westerosi seem largely ignorant of. Unless Daenys transcribed the (full) original in these pages and added some of her own visions onto it? That's certainly possible.

I think Daenys's book probably contains the "the dragon must have three heads" and "the song of ice and fire" bits that various Targs have referenced but which the Red Priests never mention. The Targs seemed to believe that these prophecies referred to the (probably preexisting) AA/PTWP prophecy, but maybe readers will come to a different conclusion should Marwyn provide us with the actual wordage.

[Snoggs]

Tze, insightful as ever! Keep it up!

[Lord A.Reyne]

You never fail to be interesting, tze.

Is Marwyn the last person Dany expects? I mean when he gets there, will the Meereenese Knot be over? Tyrion is about to meet her, Vic's already there.