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Religion III: Skeptical Evangelism, Psychedelic Shamanism, and other Religions of Us Hairless Apes


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Will get back to examining the religion of skeptical evangelism soon enough, but I thought this was an interesting and unrelated case:



Is Yoga a Religion? - Evangelical Christians in California tried to ban yoga in schools. So where is the line between the body and the soul?




Setting aside the nefarious implications Brown intends, some version of this process occurs all the time. Most yoga teachers are quite comfortable presenting the practice in layers of increasing esoterica. Eventually, at least in my experience, the physical bandhas (contractions) flower into imaginal chakras — and head-rushes get reframed as nadi shudders. But what’s interesting about Brown’s argument — in a sense the key to the Christian evangelists’ fear of yoga — goes beyond religious discourse entirely. Brown claims that the Encinitas yoga curriculum advances Hindu and American metaphysical religion ‘whether or not these practices are taught using religious or Hindu language’. In other words, the spiritual power — and threat — does not lie within the discourse packaging the moves, but in the moves themselves.



Though I suspect it’s wrong, I love this idea. I love it because it inspires the fantasy that somewhere, somehow, some stressed-out car dealer or soccer mom is going to take a yoga class at a gym (maybe because the instructor is cute) and then, halfway through practice — maybe while stretching in pigeon pose, or teetering on elbows in crow — the serpent kundalini unwinds her tail, and a fountain of pranic bliss shoots up his or her spine and blooms into a third-eye-opening shudder of wind-chimes and astral rose petals.




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"If we can't have teacher lead prayer in schools nobody can have any discussion of the spiritual in schools!" Is that their attitude?

Not exactly. I think they do have a good case, despite the obvious hypocrisy, until we get to the claim that yoga by its very nature must be spiritual and intrinsically promotes Eastern viewpoints.

Of course it may be a divergence of world views. If you start with the assumption that everything is ripe with cosmic significance, then the movements of yoga could be interpreted as what we call the "somatic components" in Dungeon and Dragon magic systems. So it isn't too far fetched for evangelicals to assume yoga is part of some kind of religious conspiracy given their priors.

Thankfully secular democracy doesn't start with the notion that certain movements and breathing exercises are intrinsically magical, given no one has been able to provide definitive proof that D&D has anything to do with reality. I'd heard some kids may have visited a world that worked like D&D, but have seen neither confirmation nor replication of this interdimensional travel.

eta: "is Dungeon..." to "in Dungeon..."

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I think they're basically correct. Yoga is very intrinsically tied to various dogmas of hinduism (mainly) it can't really be separated from it despite what the feel-good industry says.


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Can't you just strip Hinduism away from it and call it relaxation techniques instead though?



I understand that you don't want to favor Hinduism, or Buddhism, ect or even some spirituality stuff people have been coming up with lately. But as long as they don't teach becoming one with your soul or greater universe/what ever and just teach it as a good way to relax and stretch (be healthier) then I see why not.


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Can't you just strip Hinduism away from it and call it relaxation techniques instead though?

Yes, just like you can strip the christianity from the eucharist and call it a meal of wine and crackers.

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Growing up Hindu, yoga wasn't ever stressed as something important.

Most of my understanding of yoga comes from Westerners, some who are avowed skeptics of anything supernatural/paranormal and even the more spiritual one thinks a monotheistic god is just superstition.

I liken it to the therapeutic benefits of psychedelics. Yes, some of the ritual practices may help ensure a beneficial trip, but not everyone who takes ayahuasca, iboga, or peyote is convinced they interacted with actual spiritual entities no matter how beneficial the trip is.

eta:

Yes, just like you can strip the christianity from the eucharist and call it a meal of wine and crackers.

But breathing and stretching isn't inherently religious. Why I compared yoga to psychedelic trips done in a ritualistic context.

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Growing up Hindu, yoga wasn't ever stressed as something important.

That's because for daily hinduism it mostly isn't. Kind of like say, the liturgy of the hours isn't very relevant unless you're a monk. (but it's still very much a part of christian religious practice, at least among some denominations)

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That's because for daily hinduism it mostly isn't. Kind of like say, the liturgy of the hours isn't very relevant unless you're a monk. (but it's still very much a part of christian religious practice, at least among some denominations)

Chemistry arose at least partially from alchemy, and astronomy arose at least partially from astrology.

Do you think those sciences still have spiritual roots connotations? Or that herbalism is inherently spiritual, when really you're just identifying plants that have beneficial chemical properties?

My sister is really into yoga now and she thinks Hinduism, like all the other religions, is just a bunch of fiction. Just seems to me that if even someone raised in the tradition can disconnect yoga from religion everyone else should be able to do so.

All that's required is to say, "Breath like this, stretch like this, and you'll feel better." instead of "Let's salute the Sun as the giver of Life or whatnot.".

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Yes, just like you can strip the christianity from the eucharist and call it a meal of wine and crackers.

And having juice (because of school) and crackers isn't banned.

But by that point, are you really talking yoga?

Some thin definition maybe? I haven't looked up the actual (by the book) definition. I'll do that in a bit.

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Will get back to examining the religion of skeptical evangelism soon enough, but I thought this was an interesting and unrelated case:

What are the central tenets of this religion? What is the holy book? What deity is worshipped? What do you call the place of worship for a member of this religion? What rituals are part of this religion? What do you call the person conducting the services? How often does this religion meet?

It is unhelpful to call something something it is not.

Are there non-believers who become so due to skepticism? - Yes

Are there non-believers who argue their position? - Yes

Is that a religion? - Overwhelmingly No.

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ergonomically sitting in rows in front of a sage and attending thereto describes both students in school and penitents in church. likely should therefore ban assembly for & listening to the teacher as an establishment.

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What definition are you even using for 'religion'? You can redefine terms in order to put pejorative labels on things you don't like all you want but it is utterly farcical and counter-productive.



edit: just on yoga. I would never voluntarily participate in such an activity but I have had plenty of yoga people come to my (catholic) school over the years and there's definitely a religious aspect. In my experience it wasn't tied to Hinduism in the traditional sense but more in the new age religious bullshit sense of picking all manner of nonsense from various religions into one super spirituality of unashamed cognitive dissonance.


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ergonomically sitting in rows in front of a sage and attending thereto describes both students in school and penitents in church. likely should therefore ban assembly for & listening to the teacher as an establishment.

You've clearly never seen our desks if you claim they're ergonomic :p

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I've gone to yoga class as exercise/stretching before, at places that didn't require any display of belief or spirituality, yet there was usually some spiritual/religious/pseudo-scientific wording that simply bounced right off me. Since I have no particular triggers regarding yoga, Hinduism or new age, I don't really care if someone is blathering about chakras and toxins in the background. All things being equal, I'd prefer a place that wasn't spiritually oriented but a class that's affordable and convenient is going to outweigh that every time. If I went more often or it was a big part of my life I might feel differently.

Despite that, or maybe because of that, I am in total sympathy that it's not acceptable to tell anyone else that they can and should just get over spiritual overtones that make them uncomfortable, to let it slide off them and appreciate the physical stretching. I feel like it's the same as (mostly well meaning) people who've told me to just sit with my head bowed, eyes closed and hands folded during a prayer and use it as a chance to meditate while ignoring the background noise about Jesus. There are still a few social situations where I've sat quiet during someone else's prayer but that would be a totally inappropriate thing to try to push on a non-religious child at a public school.

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