Religion III: Skeptical Evangelism, Psychedelic Shamanism, and other Religions of Us Hairless Apes

[TrueMetis]

I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as a fundamentalist agnostic.

Sure there is "I can know, and know. nothing."

[Gears of the Beast]

GotB,

Why do you care what I and other theists believe? Your beliefs are certainly none of my business.

Because beliefs inform your actions and I have to live in a society with other people and it's in my interests that their actions are informed by sound, reasonable positions. That isn't to say theists can't be sound and reasonable, it's not as if I'm perturbed by the very notion that someone is a theist and feel the need to barge into their business as you're kind of implying. I have a problem with proselytizing, indoctrinating and bigotry, which appear to be (at least in part) par for the course when it comes to adherence to the dogma of semitic religions. When it starts impinging on others is when I have a problem.

Gears:if you cannot understand why I would rather my parents accept say...gayness for "bad" reasons rather than have them continue to hate me (hypothetically gay in this scenario) I don't know what to tell you

Sure, if we're talking about it at an interpersonal level like your situation I would regard my parents not thinking my very existence is compromised and sinful as positive and I would say achieving that with interpretation thing is making the best of a very unfortunate situation.

[Gears of the Beast]

Sure there is "I can know, and know. nothing."

...about the nature of god", yeah a normal agnostic.

[TrueMetis]

...about the nature of god", yeah a normal agnostic.

Agnostic doesn't just refer to claims of deities. Not that what I said was meant to be taken entirely seriously. I was taking fundamentalist in a similar vein as fundamentalist religion so similar to extremist. And presumably an extremist agnostic would think it's impossible to know anything.

I've ruined the joke by explaining it but hope that clears up any confusion.

[Gears of the Beast]

I considered that possibility but what you said actually sounds like a version of the Socratic paradox, which I certainly wouldn't see as being analogous to any kind of fundamentalist belief. When I start to consider the nature of knowledge I come to a similar position. I don't think it's a position that is worthy of being scoffed at.

"The ancient Oracle said that I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing."

[Sci-2]

I haven't read through Feser's discussion on the logical arguments for God, but people can probably find them on his blog.

Anyway, here's the recipe for Fundamentlist Agnosticism about Immaterial Entities (souls, gods, all that jazz):

1) Agrippa's Trilemma

2) Hoffman's Interface Theory of Perception: Natural Selection Drives True Perception to Extinction and Dismissing God

3) The materialist Lycan's Giving Dualism Its Due:

My materialism has never wavered. Nor is it about to waver now; I cannot take dualism very seriously.

Being a philosopher, of course I would like to think that my stance is rational, held not just instinctively and scientistically and in the mainstream but because the arguments do indeed favor materialism over dualism. But I do not think that, though I used to. My position may be rational, broadly speaking, but not because the arguments favor it: Though the arguments for dualism do (indeed) fail, so do the arguments for materialism. And the standard objections to dualism are not very convincing; if one really manages to be a dualist in the first place, one should not be much impressed by them. My purpose in this paper is to hold my own feet to the fire and admit that I do not proportion my belief to the evidence.<3>

Note that Lycan's consideration of an immaterial substance is questionable, as Feser contends this idea of an immaterial soul-stuff was not what the dualist philosophers of old had in mind. I'd recommend reading Feser's five-part refutation of the usual objections to dualism:

Part 1 + Part 2 + Part 3 + Part 4 + Part 5

4) The problem of Subjective Experience - Start with Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness, Moving Forward on the Problem of Consciousness, There are No Easy Problems of Consciousness.

5) The problem of Intentionality - Start with this post from Feser, and Vallicella's Original and Derived Intentionality, Circles, and Regresses.

6) The problem of Rationality & consideration of Universals - Start with Ross's Immaterial Aspects of Thought. Also skeptic Massimo's consideration of Mathematical Platonism and mathematician James Franklin's consideration of Mathematical "Aristotleanism":

Aristotelian realism stands in a difficult relationship with naturalism, the project of showing that all of the world and human knowledge can be explained in terms of physics, biology and neuroscience. If mathematical properties are realised in the physical world and capable of being perceived, then mathematics can seem no more inexplicable than colour perception, which surely can be explained in naturalist terms. On the other hand, Aristotelians agree with Platonists that the mathematical grasp of necessities is mysterious. What is necessary is true in all possible worlds, but how can perception see into other possible worlds? The scholastics, the Aristotelian Catholic philosophers of the Middle Ages, were so impressed with the mind’s grasp of necessary truths as to conclude that the intellect was immaterial and immortal. If today’s naturalists do not wish to agree with that, there is a challenge for them. ‘Don’t tell me, show me’: build an artificial intelligence system that imitates genuine mathematical insight. There seem to be no promising plans on the drawing board.

7) The problem of Emergence: How does nonconscious matter achieve consciousness without a nonsensical "something from nothing" type miracle? I suspect any good introduction to Panpsychism will touch on this.

8) The usual collection of anecdotes and personal feelings/experiences. One could start with T.A.S.T.E. for this sort of thing, or the Weird Events Thread.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Sure there is "I can know, and know. nothing."

Fundie agnostics:

"Clap your hands if you don't know!"

"Believe in the all-powerful goodness of not knowing!"

"Today's society like to think it knows the difference between right and wrong. Is society right or wrong? I don't know!"

[The Marquis de Leech]

And from the late great Roger Zelazny:

Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen.

[Sci-2]

Fundie agnostics:

"Clap your hands if you don't know!"

"Believe in the all-powerful goodness of not knowing!"

"Today's society like to think it knows the difference between right and wrong. Is society right or wrong? I don't know!"

It would be more about understanding the limits of knowledge gained through subjective experience and rational thought processes.

Good/Evil, Right/Wrong is rather different, since that comes from moral sentiment despite being amenable to change via reasoned argument and subjective experiences had by oneself or others. But we have another thread for all that...

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TransWitching Hour Episode 7 -> Father Shay Kearns and Brian Gerald Murphy

This week, Bailey has on Father Shay of "House of The Transfiguration" parish in Minneapolis Minnesota and activist/publisher of Spit and Spirit, Brian Gerald Murphy to discuss QueerTheology.com and being part of the LGBTQ community while having a relationship with God. Make sure to checkout all of the sites and projects we mention in this ep!

[Castel]

You know,I was actually coming to make a snarky comment about how your view on morality is incompatible with this "fundamental agnosticism". Shit,ninja'd:)

And I still see no meaningful difference since you're treating moral sentiments in a decidedly un-agnostic fashion to create a difference

[Sci-2]

You know,I was actually coming to make a snarky comment about how your view on morality is incompatible with this "fundamental agnosticism". Shit,ninja'd:)

And I still see no meaningful difference since you're treating moral sentiments in a decidedly un-agnostic fashion to create a difference

If you look above I specifically note it's agnosticism about immaterial entities.

But as I've said in the relevant thread, the reality gamble on moral realism is largely just about noting that how we've always done it seems to be working. Even agnostics have to take a chance when it comes to living out the consequences of metaphysical positions.

[Sci-2]

Magick and Psychedelic Drugs are Serious Business

(As always, be a responsible psychedelic user)

Have you gained insights into the nature of reality from the use of psychedelic substances? Do you spend long hours listening to the bottomless well of Terence McKenna archives on YouTube? Do you know what words like “hermeticism” and “entheogen” mean? Then you might be part of a new religious movement dubbed “entheogenic esotericism.”

According to academic Wouter Jacobus Hanegraaff, “entheogenic esotericism” is what happens when psychedelic drugs meet with Hermetic philosophy; Hanegraaff coined the term to describe a new religious movement that has been growing in prominence in Western societies for the last half a century. Hanegraaff, who is a professor of Hermetic Philosophy at the University of Amsterdam, defines entheogenic esotericism as “the religious use of psychoactive substances as means of access to spiritual insights about the true nature of reality.” (Check out Hanegraaff presenting on Entheogenic Esotericism below.)

[Sci-2]

On the Singularity Religion:

The End Is A.I.: The Singularity Is Sci-Fi's Faith-Based Initiative

In 1993, Vernor Vinge wrote a paper about the end of the world.

“Within thirty years, we will have the technological means to create superhuman intelligence,” writes Vinge. “Shortly after, the human era will be ended.”

At the time, Vinge was something of a double threat—a computer scientist at San Diego State University, as well as an acclaimed science fiction writer (though his Hugo awards would come later). That last part is important. Because the paper, written for a NASA symposium, reads like a brilliant mix of riveting science fiction, and secular prophecy.

“The Coming Technological Singularity” outlines a reckoning to come, when ever-faster gains in processing power will blow right past artificial intelligence—systems with human-like cognition and sentience—and give rise to hyper-intelligent machines.

“From the human point of view this change will be a throwing away of all the previous rules, perhaps in the blink of an eye, an exponential runaway beyond any hope of control. Developments that before were thought might only happen in ‘a million years’ (if ever) will likely happen in the next century.”

This is what Vinge dubbed the Singularity, a point in our collective future that will be utterly, and unknowably transformed by technology’s rapid pace. The Singularity—which Vinge explores in depth, but humbly sources back to the pioneering mathematician John von Neumann—is the futurist’s equivalent of a black hole, describing the way in which progress itself will continue to speed up, moving more quickly the closer it gets to the dawn of machine super intelligence. Once artificial intelligence (AI) is accomplished, the global transformation could take years, or mere hours. Notably, Vinge cites a SF short story by Greg Bear as an example of the latter outcome, like a prophet bolstering his argument for the coming end-times with passages from scripture.

[Sci-2]

Ayahuasca and the Godhead: An Interview with Wahid Azal of the The Fatimiya Sufi Order

I had the great honor to talk to Wahid Azal recently, who is a Sufi mystic of the The Fatimiya Sufi Order and an Islamic scholar. Wahid has incorporated ayahuasca and Haoma (MAOI inhibitor Syrian Rue x. Australian DMT containing Acacia bark) into his religious practice. He also introduced me to Henry Corbin's ideas of the imaginal plane, which lead me to study the complex metaphysics of Ibn 'Arabi, whose platonic cosmology factors into my own work in graphic novels.

[Sci-2]

Ireland considers inquiry into children's mass grave

"Many of the revelations are deeply disturbing and a shocking reminder of a darker past in Ireland when our children were not cherished as they should have been," said Children's Minister Charlie Flanagan.

"I am particularly mindful of the relatives of those involved and of local communities."

The Tuam home was one of 10 institutions in which about 35,000 unmarried pregnant women - so-called fallen women - are thought to have been sent.

The children of these women were denied baptism and segregated from others at school. If they died at such facilities, they were also denied a Christian burial.

County Galway death records showed that most of the children buried in the unmarked grave had died of sickness or disease.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

This was posted in the Christian thread, but here you go: Presbyterian Church Votes to Allow Gay Marriages.

[Sci-2]

You, God, Who live next door—
If at times, through the long night, I trouble you
with my urgent knocking—
this is why: I hear you breathe so seldom.
I know you’re all alone in that room.
If you should be thirsty, there’s no one
to get you a glass of water.
I wait listening, always. Just give me a sign!
I’m right here.

As it happens, the wall between us
is very thin. Why wouldn’t a cry
from one of us
break it down? It would crumble
easily,

it would barely make a sound.

-Rilke

[Sci-2]

The Dark Knight of the Soul: For some, meditation has become more curse than cure. Willoughby Britton wants to know why.

The real sanctuary, however, is on the third floor, where people come from all over to rent rooms, work with Britton, and rest. But they're not there to restore themselves with meditation—they're recovering from it.

"I started having thoughts like, 'Let me take over you,' combined with confusion and tons of terror," says David, a polite, articulate 27-year-old who arrived at Britton’s Cheetah House in 2013. "I had a vision of death with a scythe and a hood, and the thought 'Kill yourself' over and over again."

Michael, 25, was a certified yoga teacher when he made his way to Cheetah House. He explains that during the course of his meditation practice his "body stopped digesting food. I had no idea what was happening." For three years he believed he was "permanently ruined" by meditation.

"Recovery," "permanently ruined"—these are not words one typically encounters when discussing a contemplative practice.

[Sci-2]

The Mushroom Eucharist: Experiments with Entheogens

(see Neurosoup for advice on safe use of psychedelics)

Yet I wonder if the members of these forums –or even the Vatican itself– are aware of the work of Walter Pahnke (1931-1971), a ‘God-fearing’ (like Magneto, I too find that term disturbing) minister, physician & psychiatrist who obtained his degree and made his residency at Harvard University. Back in 1962, when Timothy Leary wasn’t yet kicked out of Harvard’s faculty & studies on psychedelics weren’t impeded by government policies, he & Pahnke were interested in investigating whether psychedelic substances could help elicit what is generally understood as a mystical event, i.e. a transcendent event in which a direct communication (or communion) with ‘the divine’ is experienced.

With this in mind, for his PhD dissertation Pahnke conducted a study with 20 seminar students –of Protestant denomination– at Boston University’s Marsh chapel, which came to be known as The Good Friday Experiment. Pahnke thought that the ideal setting for the test of the religious effects of psychedelics, would be among people who were not familiar with these substances, yet already had deep religious beliefs themselves, and who would also be comfortable with a communal situation intended to create a deep spiritual atmosphere. During the Good Friday ceremony at the chapel, half the participants were given a capsule with 30 mg of psilocybin, the psychoactive substance contained in magic mushrooms; the other half were given a placebo for double-blind control. Both the experiment subjects & the control group were monitored by group leaders.

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A Conversation with Shannon Taggart: Photographer of Séances, Spirits and Ectoplasm

Garforth is a spiritualist. His religion, a product of the American nineteenth-century, holds that death is not the end of consciousness. For him, there is an eternal world of “spirit,” and certain gifted individuals, mediums, are capable of conveying messages and energy from the other side. Some can even manifest various physical substances and effects, broadly identified as “ectoplasm.” When he enters a trance, Garforth told Taggart, “You’ll see masks spilled over my face. You’ll see my hands change.” It was just how the spirits worked for him.

Taggart was skeptical. “I’m thinking, ‘Okay. Well that could mean many things,’” she said. “I didn’t go into his séance expecting anything. I got to sit in the front row, about six feet away from him.” She kept a camera on her lap.

“He was seated in front of a low red light,” she said. The room was dark, otherwise. After twenty minutes, the medium’s wife announced that spirits were going to begin working with his hands. Taggart remembered the next moment very clearly: “He just brought out his hand. What I saw, with my eyes, was this regular hand just very gently and instantly —skip gigantic.”

“I screamed out loud,” she continued. “Which is very impolite in a séance situation.”

Taggart’s photographs have appeared in outlets such as Readers Digest, Discover Magazine and the New York Times. She’s captured dance auditions and artists’ portraits. Her approach is often unusual, and frequently relies on long exposure times, producing hallucinatory doublings, strange auras and smears of motion as her subjects move. When she photographed Garforth, the long exposure was mostly done to compensate for a lack of light. The resulting images are jittery and blurred — Garforth moved around. They also show the medium holding up a single, grotesquely inflated hand.

“I had that experience of seeing that hand get large,” she explained. “I don’t know how it happened. Whether it’s a hand actually getting large in front of my face and I was creating a photograph that documented it, or whether it’s that I was tricked somehow or I had a hypnotic experience and then my camera, through its dysfunction, mimicked that experience… I mean, all of those are interesting perspectives. I love that they’re all there.” She’s been catching similarly ambiguous situations for over a decade.

[Sci-2]

Hell-bent: Younger Christians may be ditching doctrines of fire and brimstone – but will Christianity ever get rid of hell entirely?

Chellew-Hodge’s understanding that punishment is an essential feature of religion, and her students’ confidence that it need not be, might seem to represent a simple generational divide. That so many young people in the US identify as ‘spiritual but not religious’ at least partly results from their impression of organised religion – particularly the Protestantism that has long dominated the US religious landscape – as judgmental, exclusive, and punishing. This longing for a feel-good faith with a friendly deity might help to explain why so many fell for the Pope Francis parody and why they were so disappointed that it was untrue. But the longing for a hell-less faith cannot be attributed to a contemporary generational shift alone. Time and again in the history of western Christianity, this longing has surfaced, only to be subdued and hell reaffirmed as not just scripturally but also morally necessary.