Mirri Maz Duur is more of a hero than Dany will ever be

[Mithras]

These anti Dany threads are so tedious and stupid IMO.

MMD is not a hero. Something horrific happened to her and she responded in kind. That's not heroic.

Like the sacking of Astapor and the curifixion of the Great Masters in Meereen?

If so, Dany is no hero either.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

I'm not anti-Dany, but some of the back and forth re the purism of the Dany ultra-fan brigade on here is pretty amusing. Why can't her fans accept that Dany is, like Robert Baratheon, wholly prepared to shut her eyes and ears to the cold light of day realities around her, when it suits?

My view is she's neither a shimmering white and silver saviour of Westeros or Aegon the Conqueror in drag - she's something in between. A grey character who isn't done growing yet and who will make more mistakes yet in the journey she's undertaking.

I'm hopeful GRRM pulls a wildcard out and does something to radically dispel all this AA/ PTWT fatalism of chosen ones etc in WoW. Dany suffering a major setback like losing control of 2 of the dragons would serve to radically shake things up.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

It is absolutely ridiculous to call MMD a hero. What is she the hero of?? Saving the world from unborn babies? Wow. Way to go Mirri.

When first reading I wasn't sure if MMD actually tried to kill Drogo or meant for the baby to die until I got to the part where she is gloating and pleased with herself for what happened.

I am still not sure if MMD originally tried to save Drogo (although I doubt it) but for certain she

1) knew Drogo was going to come back as a vegetable and did not warn Dany. The crap about MMD being hesitant to do it & saying 'some say death is cleaner' means nothing. If any person on this forum had someone telling them they could save their loved one from death but that the method they were going to use is questionable who would say no? I wouldn't.

2) tricked Dany into believing it was the life of Drogo's horse that was the cost of saving him knowing full & well it was the life of Dany's unborn baby.

I know these things because if they were not true when Dany asked MMD why she did these things she would have said "Hey I tried to save Drogo & he didn't follow my instructions. I tried to bring him back using the life of his horse but Jorah brought you in the tent & it killed your baby." Instead when Dany asks why she betrayed her MMD replies with why She betrayed her. She would not have replied that way if she actually did not betray Dany.

It is true MMD had already suffered much and maybe had every right to not feel as if she were saved. (I think if I had been raped by 3 men and was undoubtedly going to be raped by many more & someone stopped it from happening after 3 I would be somewhat grateful but that's just me) Maybe MMD had every right to want revenge on the Khalasar but having a right to revenge does not make her a hero by any stretch of the imagination.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

PS, re the folly of trusting Mirri Maz Duu, one part of me thinks you can't fault a 14 year old girl, beside herself with with fear and worry for her husband reaching for straws. Yeah it's naive, but it's human...

But then I say: Surely Dany should have realised after Drogo's condition significantly worsened and MMD all but admitted she was a Maegi, that she had serious ulterior motives. I don't believe the wound was as fatal as initially made out. Just my view, but I've always felt MMD's initial treatment was intentionally designed to significantly worsen the infection/ fever.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

It is absolutely ridiculous to call MMD a hero. What is she the hero of?? Saving the world from unborn babies? Wow. Way to go Mirri.

I doubt that MMD knowingly killed Rhaego. Her magic spells could have done it but she made it perfectly clear: Do NOT ender the tend. Why is her fault what Jorah aka Dany did?

[Mithras]

It is absolutely ridiculous to call MMD a hero. What is she the hero of?? Saving the world from unborn babies? Wow. Way to go Mirri.

When first reading I wasn't sure if MMD actually tried to kill Drogo or meant for the baby to die until I got to the part where she is gloating and pleased with herself for what happened.

I am still not sure if MMD originally tried to save Drogo (although I doubt it) but for certain she

1) knew Drogo was going to come back as a vegetable and did not warn Dany. The crap about MMD being hesitant to do it & saying 'some say death is cleaner' means nothing. If any person on this forum had someone telling them they could save their loved one from death but that the method they were going to use is questionable who would say no? I wouldn't.

2) tricked Dany into believing it was the life of Drogo's horse that was the cost of saving him knowing full & well it was the life of Dany's unborn baby.

I know these things because if they were not true when Dany asked MMD why she did these things she would have said "Hey I tried to save Drogo & he didn't follow my instructions. I tried to bring him back using the life of his horse but Jorah brought you in the tent & it killed your baby." Instead when Dany asks why she betrayed her MMD replies with why She betrayed her. She would not have replied that way if she actually did not betray Dany.

It is true MMD had already suffered much and maybe had every right to not feel as if she were saved. (I think if I had been raped by 3 men and was undoubtedly going to be raped by many more & someone stopped it from happening after 3 I would be somewhat grateful but that's just me) Maybe MMD had every right to want revenge on the Khalasar but having a right to revenge does not make her a hero by any stretch of the imagination.

lol, Dany tricked the Good Masters of Astapor exactly the same way by which Dany fandom praises her to the skies.

MMD killed Drogo, who was the mightiest khal and the bane of her people. She knew that she was going to be murdered horribly after killing Drogo but she sacrificed herself anyway. That is called heroism.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

lol, Dany tricked the Good Masters of Astapor exactly the same way by which Dany fandom praises her to the skies.

MMD killed Drogo, who was the mightiest khal and the bane of her people. She knew that she was going to be murdered horribly after killing Drogo but she sacrificed herself anyway. That is called heroism.

It isn't at all the same thing. Dany tricked the slavers in order to get an army & to get the Unsullied away from them because she was disgusted by what they were doing. Essentially she tricked them to save people.

MMD tricked Dany because she was pissed off. She tricked Dany to be able to kill people.

Killing people & saving people are not the same.

[Lord Damian]

MMD knew she was a goner but first, Drogo took a poisoned wound in combat. She did not do that to him. MMD did what she could to save thousands upon thousands and maybe millions of people from suffering the same fate that her village did. Now, let me ask you this, were the men of the Night's watch heroic or murders for killing the wildlings who were trying to get into the North with their entire families in order to escape a horrific fate or starve to death?

MMD is hated probably because she was not pretty or something superficial like that. Her reasons were valid considering how despicable the Dothraki are. It amazes me how some Dany fans view Drogo as some "Rudy Valentino" or exotic nobleman who would have made the world full of love so long as Dany and him were side by side.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I doubt that MMD knowingly killed Rhaego. Her magic spells could have done it but she made it perfectly clear: Do NOT ender the tend. Why is her fault what Jorah aka Dany did?

I respectfully disagree. Mirri made Dany believe it was the life of Drogo's horse that was needed to pay for Drogo's life. Later during her gloating she says 'you knew the price' Yes she told her no one should enter the tent but if she didn't intend on Rhaego's life paying for Drogo's the whole time why not say that? Why babble on about saving the world from the stallion if that was not her intention?

At any rate, I agree it is possible that Rhaego's death was an accident & not Mirri's doing but that still doesn't make her a hero. (not saying that's what you are arguing just referring to the topic of the thread)

[SeanF]

And most 14 year old girls don't go around conspiring to commit aggressive acts of war. But if they do, then I think they ought to be expected to know about it.

To believe that Dany was utterly clueless about what was going to happen you would have to believe:

1. Dany had no idea that Drogo was going to take slaves.

2. Dany had no idea that the Lhazareen were not warrior people and were not the aggressors.

3. Dany had no idea about the Dothraki way of war.

4. Dany had no idea that war involves killing.

I agree that before someone urges war, they should have a good idea what it entails.

Dany, at this point, probably thought of it as a chivalrous undertaking, in which civilians didn't get harmed.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

MMD knew she was a goner but first, Drogo took a poisoned wound in combat. She did not do that to him. MMD did what she could to save thousands upon thousands and maybe millions of people from suffering the same fate that her village did. Now, let me ask you this, were the men of the Night's watch heroic or murders for killing the wildlings who were trying to get into the North with their entire families in order to escape a horrific fate or starve to death?

MMD is hated probably because she was not pretty or something superficial like that. Her reasons were valid considering how despicable the Dothraki are. It amazes me how some Dany fans view Drogo as some "Rudy Valentino" or exotic nobleman who would have made the world full of love so long as Dany and him were side by side.

I don't think the Nw's was either one. They were doing their jobs. It's a very gray area. The same as the wildlings are not villains for killing men of the NW's to try to save their own.

My issue with MMD has nothing to do with her looks & to be honest that is kind of insulting.

MMD took the one person out of the despicable Dothraki that showed her kindness & made sure she lost all that was dear to her. My issue with MMD is my sympathy for Dany. As a wife & a mother. No Drogo was not "Rudy Valentino" but Dany loved him. Westeros is not the same world as ours. The Dothraki have customs that are very barbaric to civilized people but isn't the the case in our world also? I'm not saying the Dothraki were good people I'm saying what MMD did she did for vengeance not because she is a hero.

[Talking Hodor]

I think MMD reacted in a rather normal way. I wouldn't portray her as a hero, but she did try to save Drogo, who wouldn't leave his bandage on, advised Daenerys against the whole blood magic ritual, and did what any normal witch doctor would do to protect her folk - kill the rapist horselords if the opportunity presents itself.

Nonetheless, there's no need to bash Daenerys. She's already determined to stop the Dothraki from raping, she spends the rest of her storyline breaking chains and dispensing justice (as best she can, which isn't always that good), and had her son survived, I'm quite sure she would have boxed his ears and grounded him for a decade if she'd caught him raping anything.

[Lord Damian]

I don't think the Nw's was either one. They were doing their jobs. It's a very gray area. The same as the wildlings are not villains for killing men of the NW's to try to save their own.

My issue with MMD has nothing to do with her looks & to be honest that is kind of insulting.

MMD took the one person out of the despicable Dothraki that showed her kindness & made sure she lost all that was dear to her. My issue with MMD is my sympathy for Dany. As a wife & a mother. No Drogo was not "Rudy Valentino" but Dany loved him. Westeros is not the same world as ours. The Dothraki have customs that are very barbaric to civilized people but isn't the the case in our world also? I'm not saying the Dothraki were good people I'm saying what MMD did she did for vengeance not because she is a hero.

MMD had to look at the bigger picture, her entire village, including women, children and babies were just either captured to be sold as slaves and murdered and oh yes, raped, rape is the untimate crime towards women is it not? MMD and pretty much everyone in "Planetos" knows what happen when the Dothraki have you and your village in their sights, the same as the village suffered, rape, death and enslavement. Now, this great prophecy of the a "Stallion that Mounts the World" magnifies the "normal Dothraki way of life" thousands fold. IF MMD was as really selfish and rotten as most of the Dany lovers and MMD haters think she was, she would have healed Drogo and helped protect that child/monster and risen as someone of great value in the "wonderfully beautiful" court of Dany and Drogo. Common people, she did what she did to save people upon people, generations that she would never meet and in the full knowledge that she would suffer a terrible death. MMD is an unsung hero.

[Mithras]

It isn't at all the same thing. Dany tricked the slavers in order to get an army & to get the Unsullied away from them because she was disgusted by what they were doing. Essentially she tricked them to save people.

MMD tricked Dany because she was pissed off. She tricked Dany to be able to kill people.

Killing people & saving people are not the same.

MMD tried to save people from future attacks of Drogo. Dany killed more people than MMD to save people.

[The King in Black]

And Ramsay's actions makes me cry with happiness every time i read about them.

[The King in Black]

On a serious note though, MMD's actions are understandable ,though still inexcusable

[SeanF]

She's already determined to stop the Dothraki from raping, she spends the rest of her storyline breaking chains and dispensing justice (as best she can, which isn't always that good), and had her son survived, I'm quite sure she would have boxed his ears and grounded him for a decade if she'd caught him raping anything.

Her suggestion is that the Dothraki take the women as wives, rather than gang-raping them. That's certainly preferable to gang-rape, and it's the only realistic alternative option, to put to men who view enemy women as part of the spoils of war. But, it's still a cruel fate for the women, who will be forcibly separated from their families.

If Dany gains control of some part of the Dothraki, in TWOW, I think she can mitigate the horrors which they inflict in war. I don't think she can end them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I respectfully disagree. Mirri made Dany believe it was the life of Drogo's horse that was needed to pay for Drogo's life. Later during her gloating she says 'you knew the price' Yes she told her no one should enter the tent but if she didn't intend on Rhaego's life paying for Drogo's the whole time why not say that? Why babble on about saving the world from the stallion if that was not her intention?

At any rate, I agree it is possible that Rhaego's death was an accident & not Mirri's doing but that still doesn't make her a hero. (not saying that's what you are arguing just referring to the topic of the thread)

I believe that Rhaego's death was just a stillbirth caused from Dany's stress nothing more. How MMD could knew that Jorah would had brought Dany in the tend?

Her being the hero for me it's when she killed Drogo knowing what would happen to her after that.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

I never really thought that she was gunning to kill Rhaego. That happened because Jorah brought Dany in the tent. And Mirri never deceived Dany as to the price to saving Drogo, she even said that his fate would be worse than death if she did this. That said, I'm also sure she was happy to an extent with Drogo's death and I can't blame her. Dany might have loved him but he was a rapist and some of the Dany fans really shouldn't pretend otherwise. Mirri had a good cause to want Drogo dead after the way she was treated by his people and I sympathize with her to an extent. If she did kill him, I understand her reasons and have to admire the nerve in a way for killing a Khal with his Khalsar and wife all around, knowing it could very well result in her death. Making her villain is exceedingly ridiculous.

However, I do sympathize a bit with Dany losing her husband and son both at once. To me neither Dany nor Mirri were the "heroes" or "villains" here; they were both acting like vengeful human beings, perhaps Dany being more vengeful.

[HexMachina]

I believe that Rhaego's death was just a stillbirth caused from Dany's stress nothing more. How MMD could knew that Jorah would had brought Dany in the tend?

Her being the hero for me it's when she killed Drogo knowing what would happen to her after that.

"He had been dead for years" "full of graveworms" doesnt suggest a stillbirth. It was clearly the blood magic that killed him, whether you think MMD intended Rhaego's death from.the start or Jorah's actions killed. It was certainly the blood.magic though