Mirri Maz Duur is more of a hero than Dany will ever be

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I didn't think so. I thought they did a really good job of reflecting her position in the book.

Hmm .

I haven't watched it in about two years so you could be correct, I'll try rewatching it.

[danm_999]

The Dothraki have been raiding the Lamb people for an eternity. Long before Dany came along. I suspect she is probably the first khaleesi to ever stand up to a group of Screamers and stop them claiming what they see as their spoils. Give her some credit. She was only 14 and mistrusted as well.

Ok. But none of this really changes my point. Daenerys didn't "save" MMD, because she caused the situation that MMD needed saving from.

Drogo's dothraki wouldn't have been there if not for Daenerys desire to invade the Seven Kingdoms. That Dothraki have done this in the past doesn't really change that.

What I find most interesting about the interaction between MMD and Dany is how morally nebulous it all is. They cause each other terrible pain and suffering in a way that's deeply linked to each other's choice and ambitions, and not always about cartoon malice.

Telling me they're saviors or villains, or that I should give Dany credit whilst simultaneously excusing her for being 14 just sucks all the air out of the conversation. That's boring. Not that I direct that sentiment entirely at you either; as I've mentioned before, I don't consider MMD a hero.

[The_Leech_Lord]

ETA: Gregor was the hero of the story all along. I mean, good think he killed Rhaegar's kid. Imagine if someone had tried to raise their banner in the kids' name! A war! Thank the Gods that Gregor, Lorch and Tywin didn't allow it!

You're confusing moralities with outcomes. Sure, killing children is a morally repungant act. This is where the utilatarianism vs the deontological ethics debate comes up- and believe me, there is no simple answer to this debate. It's still going on today and although utilatarianism had been dismissed a while ago it has been revived today with new counter arguments. It takes into consideration the magnitude of pain and suffering caused/ prevented, number of persons affected, probablilities of occurence, etc. We know today that it's not such an easy answer as Yes/ No. Was Tywin, Lorch, Gregor wrong in what they did? In absolutionist terms of course they were. In relative and consequentialist ways? We still dont know, and probably this being a fantasy setting, we never will.

[Frey Pentos]

Telling me they're saviors or villains, or that I should give Dany credit whilst simultaneously excusing her for being 14 just sucks all the air out of the conversation. That's boring.

Why would I give a rats if you are bored or not? She saved MMD from another one or ten or a hundred rapings. She probably saved her life. That's just canon. I'm not arguing some saviour agenda just pointing out the facts on the ground.

[IRON BANK]

Silly provocative post is silly and provocative...

Exactly, so one sided its laughable half the book he discardes because he does not like one of the main characters, who will more than likely play a huge role toward the end of the series. He might as well walk away now, stop reading and quite discrediting the authors work.

[danm_999]

Why would I give a rats if you are bored or not?

You wouldn't.

She saved MMD from another one or ten or a hundred rapings. She probably saved her life. That's just canon. I'm not arguing some saviour agenda just pointing out the facts on the ground.

But seem to trotting out every excuse in the book (from she was only 14, to she needed time to civilize them) when I point out the "fact on the ground" that Daenerys put her in the situation in the first place.

The fact is, Daenerys and MMD destroyed each others lives. Neither saved the other.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Dany is a duplicitous young hag. Burning is too good for her. Then again we wouldn't have had the hatchings so she serves a purpose in the end.

:cool4: :cool4: :cool4:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You're confusing moralities with outcomes. Sure, killing children is a morally repungant act. This is where the utilatarianism vs the deontological ethics debate comes up- and believe me, there is no simple answer to this debate. It's still going on today and although utilatarianism had been dismissed a while ago it has been revived today with new counter arguments. It takes into consideration the magnitude of pain and suffering caused/ prevented, number of persons affected, probablilities of occurence, etc. We know today that it's not such an easy answer as Yes/ No. Was Tywin, Lorch, Gregor wrong in what they did? In absolutionist terms of course they were. In relative and consequentialist ways? We still dont know, and probably this being a fantasy setting, we never will.

I agree with what you said but while one could think "well, at the end, it was the best they could have done", that's not the same than saying they were heroes. There is no heroism in what they did, specially in what MMD did, specially because she set up the chain of events that cause the birth of Dragons. Now, the woman she thought would give birth to the one who would destroy cities was given practically weapons of mass destruction.

[Frey Pentos]

But seem to trotting out every excuse in the book (from she was only 14, to she needed time to civilize them) when I point out the "fact on the ground" that Daenerys put her in the situation in the first place.

She doesn't need excuses. It's clear in the texts that she saved MMD. Her dawning realisation that this is how the Dothraki will raise funds to finance her campaign is a brutal reality check for her. Once she has her own followers then then it's quite clear what her values are. She won't tolerate rape.

[The_Leech_Lord]

I agree with what you said but while one could think "well, at the end, it was the best they could have done", that's not the same than saying they were heroes. There is no heroism in what they did, specially in what MMD did, specially because she set up the chain of events that cause the birth of Dragons. Now, the woman she thought would give birth to the one who would destroy cities was given practically weapons of mass destruction.

I agree. The logic works both ways. While we cant say that Mirri saved hundreds of lives, neither can we say that she didnt kill a harmless innocent child who would not have made any difference in the long run.

[IRON BANK]

I agree. The logic works both ways. While we cant say that Mirri saved hundreds of lives, neither can we say that she didnt kill a harmless innocent child who would not have made any difference in the long run.

Exactly: In conflict who has the moral high ground. Usually it is the victor that is the only person left to write the story.

[Nymeria Stone]

I was more or less just framing the inherent hypocrisy of these tendencies I do see often in Dany fangirls who then proceed to see her as entirely justified in planning to unleash a culture of horselord rapists on Westeros, much less profess their attraction to one of said horselord rapists. But nah, I'm not gonna argue either.

I was actually refering to the quote below, but anyway.

Daenerys Targaryen, especially since her recent portrayal on the show, has become ASOIAFs avatar character for rich, WASPy, college aged white girls who write social justice blogs on Tumblr.

It's pathetically offensive and seems to only turn this thread into another Dany hate thread, when you had actually pointed some interesting topics that could have started a nice discussion.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Agreed. She and Ellaria Sand are some of the biggest unsung heroes of the series

[danm_999]

She doesn't need excuses. It's clear in the texts that she saved MMD.

It's not.

"I spoke for you," she said, anguished. "I saved you."

"Saved me?" The Lhazareen woman spat. "Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god's house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved."

"Your life."

Mirri Maz Duur laughed cruelly. "Look to your khal and see what life is worth, when all the rest is gone."

[Tankbuster]

What does the acronym WASP mean?

[Lady Arianne Martell]

What does the acronym WASP mean?

White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Referring to most middle class/upper class, Christian Americans who tend to come from suburbs and have PTA moms, etc.

[SeanF]

She doesn't need excuses. It's clear in the texts that she saved MMD. Her dawning realisation that this is how the Dothraki will raise funds to finance her campaign is a brutal reality check for her. Once she has her own followers then then it's quite clear what her values are. She won't tolerate rape.

You can't have war, without rape, in this world. Dany can issue orders against it, punish it if it happens in front of her, but once you have thousands of Dothraki, Ironborn, sellswords, freedmen, all fighting on your behalf, mass rape (along with pillage and mass murder) is going to be a fact of life. Dany couldn't prevent rape and murder when Meereen was stormed.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Dany had little control of Drogo back then. She wanted him to invade Westeros but she didn't expect him do what he did. At the time, he was much more naive and inexperienced than she is now. Why do we keep blaming her for what Drogo did? :dunno: And even after seeing the atrocities committed by Drogo, she tried to make a good. She failed. I agree that MMD didn't know all of this, but we do. Dany didn't "deserved" to have her child to die like this and probably being barren for the rest of her life.

[SeanF]

Dany had little control of Drogo back then. She wanted him to invade Westeros but she didn't expect him do what he did. At the time, he was much more naive and inexperienced than she is now. Why do we keep blaming her for what Drogo did? :dunno: And even after seeing the atrocities committed by Drogo, she tried to make a good. She failed. I agree that MMD didn't know all of this, but we do. Dany didn't "deserved" to have her child to die like this and probably being barren for the rest of her life.

Drogo made absolutely clear what would happen, when he gave his speech about raping women and enslaving children.

Granted, it's one thing to hear about it, and another to witness it at first hand. But, Dany acknowledges, even after witnessing it, that "this is the price of the Iron Throne.". And so it is. If she is to fulfill her ambitions, then thousands of people must suffer and die.

[Hippocras]

So lately I've been reflecting on the fact that Daenerys Targaryen, especially since her recent portrayal on the show, has become ASOIAFs avatar character for rich, WASPy, college aged white girls who write social justice blogs on Tumblr. However, notice that you never see any of these people singing praises for Mirri Maz Duur. She's usually written off as that "fat ugly bitch" who killed Khal Drogo, the horselord rapist who all the aforementioned Dany fans swoon over, and died screaming when Dany became the mother of dragons or some bullshit like that.

What I honestly don't get is why the whole social justice crowd, and the ASOIAF fandom in general for that matter, views Mirri as the bad guy in this situation. Even before Dany "saved" her, Mirri had been raped by Dothraki numerous times, her people enslaved...and whats more, Dany was a carrying a child who according to prophecy was going to be "The Stallion Who Mounts The World", which literally translated to "The Guy Who's Going To Fuck The World In The Ass", and would have only raped and enslaved all of Essos and presumably Westeros as well if Dany got her way. If there is any weight to prophecies, by disposing of Rhaego as well as Drogo, Mirri pretty much saved all of Planetos.

And this character is still reviled or ignored by the majority of the fandom? Fuck that shit. Mirri Maz Duur was a hero, perhaps the single most unsung in hero in all of ASOIAF. Its only a shame that "only death can pay for life", and that by being burned alive she basically made Dany temporarily fireproof and inspired one of the most persistently annoying myths in the entire fandom...but hey no ones perfect.

She also killed an unborn baby.

Rhaego was alive and kicking before her intervention. I don't see that as particularly heroic.