Aussies LXII: ICAC, Budgets and Beer

[Paxter]

In honour of the footy season: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxM8XB61ZvU

Well you work to earn a living
But on weekends comes the time
You can do what ever turns you on
Get out and clear your mind
Me, I like football
And there's a lot of things around
But when you line 'em up together
The footy wins hands down

Up there cazaly, in there and fight
Out there and at 'em, show 'em your might
Up there cazaly, don't let 'em in
Fly like an angel, you're out there to win

Now there's a lot more things to football
That really meets the eye
There are days when you could give it up
There are days when you could fly
You either love or hate it
Depending on the score
But when your team run out or they kick a goal
How's the mighty roar (hooray, hooray)

Up there cazaly, in there and fight
Out there and at 'em, show 'em your might
Up there cazaly, don't let 'em in
Fly like an angel, you're out there to win

Up there cazaly, you're out there to win
In there and at 'em, don't let 'em in
Up there cazaly, show 'em you're high
Fight like the devil, the crowds on your side

Ahhh...
Up there cazaly, in there and fight
Out there and at 'em, show 'em you're might
Up there cazaly, show 'em you're high
Fight like the devil, the crowd's on your side
The - crowd's - on - your - side...

[Nas!]

I feel as if, spiritually, I am Australian. If it wasn't for my strong aversion to heat, poisonous creatures, and Brady, I'd basically be one of you. Do y'all have some sort of official supporters club or something?

[Lady Woodland]

I feel as if, spiritually, I am Australian. If it wasn't for my strong aversion to heat, poisonous creatures, and Brady, I'd basically be one of you. Do y'all have some sort of official supporters club or something?

You could live in Tassie, doesn't get too hot & the creepy crawlies are minimal. I'm not sure there's a national supporters club. Most of the clubs are based in Melbourne the Victorian VFL became a national league in the early 80's if I remember correctly & they included teams from all other states now with the exception of Tasmania, Northern Territory & the Australian Capital Territory (which is a small piece of land inside of New South Wales) Each of the clubs have their own colours & mascot like the NFL. When I lived in the states some years back we used to get Aussie Rules on Fox (pay TV)

You have to choose a club to follow though, I'm sure you will get plenty of advise here choosing one.!!

If you're from the South (Y'all) I'ts gotta be the Crows or the Power. :cheers:

[Lady Woodland]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-16Aqs8NZ_s

Just a bit of fun

[brook]

You could live in Tassie, doesn't get too hot & the creepy crawlies are minimal

Most importantly I'm reasonably sure that Tasmania is also certified Brady-free!

[Jeor]

If only we agreed on gay marriage...

Without going into a long discourse about it (and derailing the thread), I think it will take me some time to get around on that one. I know it is small solace, but I believe I have budged on the issue a bit since we initially had those discussions. In terms of it becoming secular law, I wouldn't actively campaign against it. It certainly does Christians much harm to be vociferously against gay marriage, and if the electorate is in support of it, then it should certainly happen (and no doubt will within the next decade if not sooner). That isn't the only reason, of course, for my change in practical views; if there is freedom of religion, there should be freedom of many other things as well. While I can't offer enthusiasm for it, I can at least cease opposition. I know that isn't as far as you'd like me to be, but I will need some time to have my heart catch up with my head.

Additionally, I think you are misconstruing my overall argument here. I don't see some of these issues (e.g. the GST) as right-wing "conspiracies" - I simply see an increasingly unequal society becoming more unequal through basic self-interest. Neither of our major political parties are immune to those influences.

Sorry about that one - I occasionally have a tendency to see imaginary left-wing conspiracies about right wing conspiracies, if you know what I mean! Without making too much of an excuse of it, I do sometimes adopt a siege mentality or defensive posture given the unpopularity of my views on certain topics.

ETA: I did a bit of digging on wealth inequality and found this, which broadly accords with Jeor's assertion that Australia is doing (relatively) well on that front. I'm still concerned by the overall trend though, as well as the actual magnitude of the wealth discrepancy (the wealthiest 20% of Australian households have a net worth 68 times higher than the least wealthy 20%). But your hunch was right Jeor!

Woo! Pulled that shaky assertion out of my behind but it appears there was some truth in it at least!

[The Winged Shadow]

I laughed

I don't even know what to say about the audit. So many things to disagree with, i don't even know where to start....I just rage out and my brain crashes..

I think GST needs to be broadened to education and health and eventually increased. There was an article by Ross Gittins at SMH that was an interesting read. It suggested that under the current budget estimates there will be no income tax cuts in the next decade, and if so, the bracket creep will be more regressive than an increase in GST. So assuming income tax cuts (for bracket creep) is not forthcoming in the near future, GST increase might be the less regressive option (but definitely more stable).

I don't mind the levy. I don't give two shits about promises and what not. Every politician breaks them and you are naive if you thought this time it will be different. It's not ideal, considering they are cutting other revenue sources (carbon scheme and mining tax) even as they whinge about a budget crisis that is not really a crisis.

If health spending is going up, then the medicare levy needs to be increased. I would gladly pay higher medicare levy. The audits solution is just beyond me, increase drug cost and reduce accessibility. How the fuck is that the solution? I can at least understand how reducing access might save a few bucks (which i disagree with, given emergency care costs more etc, but lets leave that for now), but how the fuck is increasing drug costs suppose to help anyone but the drug companies? I just don't understand.

Making our education system more like US is the dumbest idea I've heard for a while. I can understand (though not agree with) how competition is supposed to improve the quality of education, but how the hell is making education more expensive a solution? Australia's universities will never be like the US powerhouses and it needs to stop trying to be. It's well and good to point out that US system produce some of the best universities in the world, but lets not forget that they also produce shit load of graduates with shit load more debt and no job. Not to mention that it creates two tier education system where if you didn't go to an ivy league university your degree is worth shit. I think in Australia this will be more pronounced because we don't have as many universities. Higher education does not guarantee a higher paying job! Specially with race to the bottom policies like the removal/reduction of minimum wage. There has to be better ways to improve quality of teaching without tearing apart our relatively good and accessible education system.

[Jeor]

Agree with a lot of what you say about the GST, raising the levy, pollies breaking promises.

The education one is a tough situation. Regarding tertiary fees, I am in favour of universally free tertiary education so long as they tighten the standards. I've already talked about the problem in the maths and sciences, where universities are letting in students without any maths prerequisites, and therefore carrying failing and incapable students because they need their enrolments for government funding. Why not cut out those students who are bumming their way through uni (some of whom don't even graduate) and give that money to the able ones so you can fund fully free tertiary education? I'm not naive so more funding for universities is not my spiel, because that's not going to happen. I just think the existing money needs to be spent more wisely. I see this working two possible ways:

1) Tighten the entrance criteria, such as reinstating school subject prerequisites (very few courses have them) and fixing class sizes to a set, acceptable figure - which means you will have fewer students (currently many courses just let in huge amounts of students so you have terrible class sizes). But you will have stronger programs, better quality teaching (since you have better teacher/student ratios) and a stronger pool of high ability graduates.

2) Or you could keep the entrance criteria as it is - but make students pay the full fees for any unit/subject that they fail (ie so the government doesn't fund any subjects you failed in). Of course this opens up a can of worms about potential student debt and the lecturers having subjective influence over passing/failing. So there would have to be some safeguards built in for that. But it would weed the student bludgers out of the university system and save the government some money.

[Tears of Lys]

Is the Anzac Spirit still alive and kicking?

I sincerely hope so! :love:

[Lady Woodland]

Is the Anzac Spirit still alive and kicking?

I sincerely hope so! :love:

depends what you mean by "spirit" I made a post & it got nothing but hate, made me sad, I'm not pro war but I really think it's honourable to pay homage & honour our fallen & those still fighting whether I agree with the fight or not.

[Tears of Lys]

After watching "Gallipoli," I was Googling around the Internet and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzac_spirit

It got me to thinking how much Aussies and New Zealanders have contributed over the decades. We salute you. :love:

[Arkhangel]

depends what you mean by "spirit" I made a post & it got nothing but hate, made me sad, I'm not pro war but I really think it's honourable to pay homage & honour our fallen & those still fighting whether I agree with the fight or not.

It didn't get hate, it got an exchange of opinions. It makes me sad that anything other than unquestioning enthusiasm is taken for hatred.

[arya_underfoot]

Agree with a lot of what you say about the GST, raising the levy, pollies breaking promises.

The education one is a tough situation. Regarding tertiary fees, I am in favour of universally free tertiary education so long as they tighten the standards. I've already talked about the problem in the maths and sciences, where universities are letting in students without any maths prerequisites, and therefore carrying failing and incapable students because they need their enrolments for government funding. Why not cut out those students who are bumming their way through uni (some of whom don't even graduate) and give that money to the able ones so you can fund fully free tertiary education? I'm not naive so more funding for universities is not my spiel, because that's not going to happen. I just think the existing money needs to be spent more wisely. I see this working two possible ways:

1) Tighten the entrance criteria, such as reinstating school subject prerequisites (very few courses have them) and fixing class sizes to a set, acceptable figure - which means you will have fewer students (currently many courses just let in huge amounts of students so you have terrible class sizes). But you will have stronger programs, better quality teaching (since you have better teacher/student ratios) and a stronger pool of high ability graduates.

2) Or you could keep the entrance criteria as it is - but make students pay the full fees for any unit/subject that they fail (ie so the government doesn't fund any subjects you failed in). Of course this opens up a can of worms about potential student debt and the lecturers having subjective influence over passing/failing. So there would have to be some safeguards built in for that. But it would weed the student bludgers out of the university system and save the government some money.

Entrance criteria need to be MUCH stricter, and numbers smaller. University education in Australia is a joke. Universities are allowed to run like businesses, because education is our third biggest export, or so goes the free-market rhetoric. As long as politicians and, disturbingly, vice-chancellors, view tertiary education as a commodity whose economic value ought to be maximised, the current mess is only going to get worse. Nothing will fix tertiary education, unless we demand a sharp increase in the quality of education provided. I think we probably have the academic staff to do this, but we need to empower them by absolutely insisting on much tougher entrance criteria and a higher standard of teaching and assessments. It should be somewhat difficult to get a university degree, otherwise it's value is diminished.

It didn't get hate, it got an exchange of opinions. It makes me sad that anything other than unquestioning enthusiasm is taken for hatred.

This is problem with the ANZAC Day debate. Unless you are rabid in your fervour for celebrating it, you will be derided with scorn.

[Gears of the Beast]

I'm pretty jaded about all the ANZAC stuff, I don't really see the point in it all. And some aspects honestly creep me out a bit, I don't see it as glorification of war as much as an obsession with dead soldiers. Why are we barraged with this message of remembering them? It's not like anyone actually remembers them individually and it's not like anyone forgets the fact that WWI happened. And I hate to be blunt but what good is 'remembering them' gonna do anyway? They're dead, they got sent off to get slaughtered by the Ottoman empire 100 years ago. I just don't get the American-esque nationalism and nostalgia for dead soldiers.

[karaddin]

Nothing will fix tertiary education, unless we demand a sharp increase in the quality of education provided. I think we probably have the academic staff to do this, but we need to empower them by absolutely insisting on much tougher entrance criteria and a higher standard of teaching and assessments. It should be somewhat difficult to get a university degree, otherwise it's value is diminished.

An overhaul of the grant process so it doesn't suck up such an absurd amount of academic time wouldn't hurt either, they might be able to care about students if they had the time.

[Lady Woodland]

It didn't get hate, it got an exchange of opinions. It makes me sad that anything other than unquestioning enthusiasm is taken for hatred.

Firstly I apologise for the word "hate" maybe too strong, the last thing I want to do is make someone sad for expressing their opinions, however the spirit of the post was to honour our fallen to who we owe our current freedoms & awesome country. The post did not get an "exchange of opinions" it received 90% negative ANZAC day opinions. Which is fine, other people are as entitled to their opinions as I am to mine. However I draw the line below.

I'm pretty jaded about all the ANZAC stuff, I don't really see the point in it all. And some aspects honestly creep me out a bit, I don't see it as glorification of war as much as an obsession with dead soldiers. Why are we barraged with this message of remembering them? It's not like anyone actually remembers them individually and it's not like anyone forgets the fact that WWI happened. And I hate to be blunt but what good is 'remembering them' gonna do anyway? They're dead, they got sent off to get slaughtered by the Ottoman empire 100 years ago. I just don't get the American-esque nationalism and nostalgia for dead soldiers.

The word "jaded" used in this conversation is pretty offensive to those who's parents & grandparents fought & died. We are not American, this has nothing to do with America & the words you use are truly disrespectful. Surely one day a year is hardly being "barraged with messages to remember them?"

Is it really so abhorrent to you that these people gave their lives for their country? Do you think if Japan had invaded Australia you might still be sitting there with your current freedom of expression, rights & liberties & be able to express your boredom?

[Arkhangel]

Firstly I apologise for the word "hate" maybe too strong, the last thing I want to do is make someone sad for expressing their opinions, however the spirit of the post was to honour our fallen to who we owe our current freedoms & awesome country. The post did not get an "exchange of opinions" it received 90% negative ANZAC day opinions. Which is fine, other people are as entitled to their opinions as I am to mine. However I draw the line below.

The word "jaded" used in this conversation is pretty offensive to those who's parents & grandparents fought & died. We are not American, this has nothing to do with America & the words you use are truly disrespectful. Surely one day a year is hardly being "barraged with messages to remember them?"

Is it really so abhorrent to you that these people gave their lives for their country? Do you think if Japan had invaded Australia you might still be sitting there with your current freedom of expression, rights & liberties & be able to express your boredom?

I think the point the poster was making regarding America is that this quasi-religious veneration of the military is a phenomenon which is already very prevalent in America and has been for some time, whereas it's only really come about in the last fifteen or twenty years in Australia. And yes, Anzac Day comes once a year but the media and both big and small business spend weeks building it up, essentially in order to wring as much money as possible out of it in the same way they do something like Valentine's Day or Father's Day.

I'm not sure why you find the word 'jaded' so offensive, but it certainly doesn't mean that the poster thinks Anzac Day is 'abhorrent', just that he/she is somewhat cynical about it. I have many relatives who fought in the World Wars for Australia and a grandfather who died more or less as the result of PTSD from Vietnam, and I don't find it remotely offensive.

And the Australian military, much less the Anzacs, did not prevent a Japanese invasion; apart from a few isolated elements in the navy, the Japanese never actually wanted to invade. The Japanese army considered the idea 'gibberish'.

[Lady Woodland]

I think the point the poster was making regarding America is that this quasi-religious veneration of the military is a phenomenon which is already very prevalent in America and has been for some time, whereas it's only really come about in the last fifteen or twenty years in Australia. And yes, Anzac Day comes once a year but the media and both big and small business spend weeks building it up, essentially in order to wring as much money as possible out of it in the same way they do something like Valentine's Day or Father's Day.

I'm not sure why you find the word 'jaded' so offensive, but it certainly doesn't mean that the poster thinks Anzac Day is 'abhorrent', just that he/she is somewhat cynical about it. I have many relatives who fought in the World Wars for Australia and a grandfather who died more or less as the result of PTSD from Vietnam, and I don't find it remotely offensive.

And the Australian military, much less the Anzacs, did not prevent a Japanese invasion; apart from a few isolated elements in the navy, the Japanese never actually wanted to invade. The Japanese army considered the idea 'gibberish'.

Really don't want to get into an argument with my own countrymen on this, but in answer I find the word jaded as meaning bored & of little interest & yes cynical which is easy if it's not something you've ever dealt with. I never used the word 'abhorrent' just that I found that comment personally offensive considering the freedoms said person now enjoys. With regard to your last comment, propaganda or not the Japanese did occupy significant territory in nearby countries & they did bomb Darwin & hundreds died which makes your link as to what people then thought or died for back then moot.

[Arkhangel]

You did suggest that the poster thought Anzac Day was abhorrent when you said that 'Is it really so abhorrent to you that these people gave their lives for their country?'

And the implication behind your question "Do you think if Japan had invaded Australia you might still be sitting there with your current freedom of expression, rights & liberties & be able to express your boredom?" is that the Australian military stopped a Japanese invasion and we should be thankful to them for our freedom from... some sort of repressive authoritarian Japanese dictatorship...? And that's simply not true.

[Jeor]

I should note that I also took a low view of Gears' post, not necessarily because I'm in favour of Anzac Day, but because there's a distinct lack of tactfulness in the way he put forward his arguments and I can see how some might find the turns of phrase he used offensive. Not that that should be a valid argument against his actual points - I do understand the sentiment behind the post - for instance, I don't have any personal connection with Anzac Day or any servicemen for that matter.

However, I am quite happy to go along with the Anzac tradition for one day of the year (or two, if you count Remembrance Day in November), because even though I am not personally 'into' it, in the interests of tolerance I believe it's important to respect those people who are. I can see some value (especially as a schoolteacher) in placing some emphasis and teaching our youth about the importance of sacrifice. While I don't for a second think that every soldier was a paragon of selfless virtue, I think recognising them in some general way as we do in Anzac Day is appropriate.

As a bit of an aside that's really neither here nor there, I do think the emphasis on the Anzac tradition has come about because Australia has comparatively little cultural history. We're a very young nation and there's really not that much to talk about in the couple of hundred years that the Australia as we know it has been around. As a result I think the Anzacs get a lot of the limelight.