Wise Man's Fear X (SPOILERS)

[red snow]

With both of these books it's also very unclear how far the author is.

With Martin, you do get the sense that he has finally strapped himself the last year and a half and started writing in earnest, also with the pressure of the tv show catching up. From what you hear it seems like a 2015 release is what is on the publisher's minds. But with Doors of Stone, I'm not sure to what extent, if any, Rothfuss is working on that this year.

It does seem like he's more focused on the side novels at the moment, which is fine by me if that's where his creativity is taking him. Maybe someone needs to start making a show/film of his books as an incentive

[thistlepong]

But with Doors of Stone, I'm not sure to what extent, if any, Rothfuss is working on that this year.

The last thing he said about it directly implied he was still processing feedback from the alpha manuscripts he sent out last year and working on revisions. He's been working on all three projects concurrently. ("The Lightning Tree" was turned in more than a year ago and written in its entirety over the course of one month.)

The Slow Regard of Silent Things was finished in January, sold in February iirc, and turned in for copy editing last month.

The Tale of Laniel Young Again has been a work in progress since, jeez, around the time The Wise Man's Fear came out. It was sold last fall. While the details are hazy, it looks like it was part of a three book deal with DAW. It's got a shape, but the details have been changing. A month hasn't gone by where some name or cultural touchstone for Modeg hasn't been altered.

The Doors of Stone is... all the parts are there. There's an end and there's a story. He's even held fast to a pretty solid final word count since the tour for WMF. But it's not done, not complete, not perfect. There's a lot of revising to do, yet.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I think we will see Doors of stone before Winds. As you say, the story is there, the details need to be worked out. Winds is such a larger scope, what with 6 or 7 stories unfolding concurrently thousands of miles apart.

As a person who picked up ASOIAF a good 6 years prior to Kingkiller, and who has invested a terrific amount of emotive thought & time in ASOIAF, I am surprised to find myself far more interested in the outcome for Kvothe the character than Tyrion or Dany or even Jon.

Is there any speculation on the story timeline for Doors of Stone? Specifically, might we reach a point 3/4 of the way through where the story remains in the Interlude, so to speak?

I ask because I can't imagine D3 ending with Kote saying "Welp, that's my book of deeds, best of luck publishing, I need to go prepare dinner for my customers."

There's long been theories that the story is building up to an interlude encounter with the Chandrian... That seems plausible until one considers that not only was K caught off guard by Chronicler's arrival, but he has clearly stated that he has avoided using the real names of the Chandrian.

Though I suppose the skrael & skindancers were incorporated into the interlude not without reason... Perhaps some sort of new creation war. Supernatural phenomena seem to be spiking.

Though it may well be that he did in fact kill Cinder ... We know he killed an 'angel' and we know he killed thing(s) that were 'more than men' ... Whether both claims are referencing the same clash or separate incidents we know not. I find it difficult to swallow that anyone could've affixed the descriptive 'angel' to one of the Chandrian...

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

One other thing that occurred to me the other day... When Kvothe is memorizing the history or Caesura, we are told it was wielded at Drossen Tor. Did the Adem fight in the battle? Perhaps in the form of their precursor society... Either way, the sword was there.

We are also told that its owner 'slew two Doruna' before being killed by 'grummen'. Between those references and the super-draccus, It seems to me that there were a goodly number of non human creatures about in those days... Were they indigenous? If not, where did they come from? And even more important, where did they go afterwards?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SoMA,

There is no way to know without more information. I'm lookimg forward to DoS (assuming that's the title) too.

[jet199]

I think we will see Doors of stone before Winds. As you say, the story is there, the details need to be worked out. Winds is such a larger scope, what with 6 or 7 stories unfolding concurrently thousands of miles apart.

As a person who picked up ASOIAF a good 6 years prior to Kingkiller, and who has invested a terrific amount of emotive thought & time in ASOIAF, I am surprised to find myself far more interested in the outcome for Kvothe the character than Tyrion or Dany or even Jon.

Is there any speculation on the story timeline for Doors of Stone? Specifically, might we reach a point 3/4 of the way through where the story remains in the Interlude, so to speak?
I ask because I can't imagine D3 ending with Kote saying "Welp, that's my book of deeds, best of luck publishing, I need to go prepare dinner for my customers."

There's long been theories that the story is building up to an interlude encounter with the Chandrian... That seems plausible until one considers that not only was K caught off guard by Chronicler's arrival, but he has clearly stated that he has avoided using the real names of the Chandrian.

Though I suppose the skrael & skindancers were incorporated into the interlude not without reason... Perhaps some sort of new creation war. Supernatural phenomena seem to be spiking.

Though it may well be that he did in fact kill Cinder ... We know he killed an 'angel' and we know he killed thing(s) that were 'more than men' ... Whether both claims are referencing the same clash or separate incidents we know not. I find it difficult to swallow that anyone could've affixed the descriptive 'angel' to one of the Chandrian...

I think there is a good chance the Chandrian are more dark grey than evil. This is probably why Denna wrote a sympathetic song about Lanre after all her research. Also the Amyr may be the real bad guys. So I don't think we will see a fight with the Chandrian at the end. I think it is more likely Bast will get his way and Kvothe will decide to become a proactive hero again due to something he works out (we saw at the end of the second book that Kvothe can't be provoked into being his old self so it will be more complicated than an old enemy showing up).

 

There is a theory that Kvothe kills Cinder in his story and has taken his place as one of the seven so he is hiding from them as well as everyone else.

 

I think Kvothe will open the Lackless door (he's the son who brings the blood) and unleash something nasty, probably Jax/Iax. This leads to the increase in supernatual stuff. I think he will cause the war with his kingslaying, that sort of thing causes nobles to fight which is what seems to be going on.

 

There is also a good chance that the scrael are something Kvothe himself created in the Fishery seeing as he keeps inventing immoral things or things to do with weapons.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I think there is a good chance the Chandrian are more dark grey than evil. This is probably why Denna wrote a sympathetic song about Lanre after all her research. Also the Amyr may be the real bad guys. So I don't think we will see a fight with the Chandrian at the end. I think it is more likely Bast will get his way and Kvothe will decide to become a proactive hero again due to something he works out (we saw at the end of the second book that Kvothe can't be provoked into being his old self so it will be more complicated than an old enemy showing up).

There is also a good chance that the scrael are something Kvothe himself created in the Fishery seeing as he keeps inventing immoral things or things to do with weapons.

Your the second person in as many days to suggest the Amyr are secretly some malevolent force in the world. Do you mean the human Amyr of the Aturan Empire? The Selitos/Tehlu Amyr charged by Aleph with thwarting the Chandrian do not strike me as the malevolent type.

On the Chandrian - there may be some grey aspects to Lanre/Haliax in light of his being manipulated by the Ctheah, but I would not extend that consideration to the other 6. Even so its not easy to defend a fellow who is determined to destroy the world.

On the skrael, do you really think Kvothe made them? He certainly recognized them, but there's a long league's difference between recognizing something and being responsible for creating something... Just as there's a long league's difference between building a narrow beam lamp/faster cycling ballista and a wagon wheel sized demonic spider with razor-sharp legs. I had presumed the negative reaction to iron & Bast's seeming prior knowledge of them as fairly clear indicators that they were from the Fae.

If you believe these things, by all means try to convince me. There are many things I would've overlooked had my attention not been drawn to them in some online discussion.

[jet199]

Your the second person in as many days to suggest the Amyr are secretly some malevolent force in the world. Do you mean the human Amyr of the Aturan Empire? The Selitos/Tehlu Amyr charged by Aleph with thwarting the Chandrian do not strike me as the malevolent type.

On the Chandrian - there may be some grey aspects to Lanre/Haliax in light of his being manipulated by the Ctheah, but I would not extend that consideration to the other 6. Even so its not easy to defend a fellow who is determined to destroy the world.

On the skrael, do you really think Kvothe made them? He certainly recognized them, but there's a long league's difference between recognizing something and being responsible for creating something... Just as there's a long league's difference between building a narrow beam lamp/faster cycling ballista and a wagon wheel sized demonic spider with razor-sharp legs. I had presumed the negative reaction to iron & Bast's seeming prior knowledge of them as fairly clear indicators that they were from the Fae.

If you believe these things, by all means try to convince me. There are many things I would've overlooked had my attention not been drawn to them in some online discussion.

Since when did I say I believed these things, they are just ideas.

I do think there is a good chance the ancient amyr were bad and the present are covering it up and continuing to meddle to the detriment of society. Nina points out that of all the beings on the pot the amyr was the worst. So we have Denna and Nina, both of who Kvothe ignores as he just assumes they must be wrong, saying that the chandrian are not as bad as the amyr. History is written by the victors so it is unlikely that anything we have been told about the losers, the chandrian, is the complete truth. So we don't really know that Haliax wants to destroy the world, certainly when we see him he talks about working towards a goal but that seems more complicated than pure destruction.

The author has had the hero commit a pretty similar crime to the chadrian, killing a whole travelling troop, Kvothe's justification that they had to die because they were thieves (I'm pretty sure he put the poison in the stew before the girls were brought out) doesn't wash because he himself is a thief and proud of it. Really if Cinder is irredeemably bad so is Kvothe.

The amyr idea of having to do terrible things for the greater good could well backfire on Kvothe if it turns out his parents were killed for some greater good. Kvothe seems to have no problem with this idea, while Sim tells him it's wrong and the author gives the most horrifying extreme example that no sensible person could think it's ok. I can't help but think rather than show that this idea problematic by printing a long argument Patrick is going to show it by have the consequences of that kind of thinking come down hard on Kvothe in the last book.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Oh, I think. Kvothe should be branded with the scarlet "H" for is epic levels of hypocrisy. He's stealing all the time as justifies it by commenting on how aweful the people he steals from are. That makes us sympathize with him but it doesn't make his theivery proper.

The Road to Levenshire shows how Kvothe learned next to nothing from his time with the Adem beyond some martial prowess.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Since when did I say I believed these things, they are just ideas.

I do think there is a good chance the ancient amyr were bad and the present are covering it up and continuing to meddle to the detriment of society. Nina points out that of all the beings on the pot the amyr was the worst. So we have Denna and Nina, both of who Kvothe ignores as he just assumes they must be wrong, saying that the chandrian are not as bad as the amyr. History is written by the victors so it is unlikely that anything we have been told about the losers, the chandrian, is the complete truth. So we don't really know that Haliax wants to destroy the world, certainly when we see him he talks about working towards a goal but that seems more complicated than pure destruction.

The author has had the hero commit a pretty similar crime to the chadrian, killing a whole travelling troop, Kvothe's justification that they had to die because they were thieves (I'm pretty sure he put the poison in the stew before the girls were brought out) doesn't wash because he himself is a thief and proud of it. Really if Cinder is irredeemably bad so is Kvothe.

The amyr idea of having to do terrible things for the greater good could well backfire on Kvothe if it turns out his parents were killed for some greater good. Kvothe seems to have no problem with this idea, while Sim tells him it's wrong and the author gives the most horrifying extreme example that no sensible person could think it's ok. I can't help but think rather than show that this idea problematic by printing a long argument Patrick is going to show it by have the consequences of that kind of thinking come down hard on Kvothe in the last book.

Your statements began with “I think..” and “There’s a good chance” I took that to mean you subscribe to the belief(s) outlined in those statements or at the least find them plausible. I wanted to hear your arguments. No matter.

The little girl Nina found the picture scary. She didn’t really know what she was looking at more than an angry person with bloody hands. Didn’t she say the Amyr on the pottery was giving some defiant gesture or some such?

Are you suggesting that Denna’s ‘patron’, who beats her into unconsciousness on a regular basis, is some secret do-gooder out to correct some historical inaccuracy? It seems the only people who suggest the Amyr are evil are a confused little girl who saw a picture that she did not understand and Denna who got the information from her patron… a patron who is in all likelihood either one of the Chandrian or a pagan [chandrian] worshiping Bredon. Against that we have Skarpi’s tale and the corroborating partial accounts of Auri, Felurian, Simmon, and Haliax himself. Even Lorren suggests that most young boys would want to pretend at being hero Amyr in their playing…

It’s not that anyone was or is ‘covering up’ the Amyr’s mis-deeds… they are all but removing them from the historical records. Even mundane details like how many troops, how many heavy horse could they put to field, etc. are entirely stricken from the historical records of multiple churches, multiple states, and multiple private entities.

Kvothe didn’t kill a bunch of troupers… he killed a bunch of bandits who killed a bunch of troupers, assumed their place, and kidnapped & raped some local girls in the town they visited. Leaving the water skin may not have been of the Lethani, but everything up to that seems safe. The Chandrian, on the other hand, did kill a bunch of innocent troupers … for no better reason than two of them happened to mention their names during rehearsal of a song.

As for the thievery... yes, he stole some things when he was at great need, but he also paid for things he didn't need to pay for. And when he returned, he gave as much money to Trapis as Trapis would accept & repaid the cobbler/tailor/bookbinder/inn-keeper for the help they wittingly or unwittingly gave him. Yes, he robbed Ambrose... but he did so to get Denna's ring back.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lifting Ambrose's purse was an action of petty thievery not an attempt to find Denna's ring. Ambrose may be a douche but I think Kvothe was too.

[Ninefingers]

Is there any speculation on the story timeline for Doors of Stone? Specifically, might we reach a point 3/4 of the way through where the story remains in the Interlude, so to speak?

I ask because I can't imagine D3 ending with Kote saying "Welp, that's my book of deeds, best of luck publishing, I need to go prepare dinner for my customers."

I think this is likely. After book 1, I was sure sure SURE that the series would break down:

1. Origin and schooling

2. Deeds that made him famous

3. Dealing with the problems of the present day

Obviously we've deviated, but I still think you end up in the frame story. Rothfuss has indicated more than once that "a story needs an ending". I don't know how you get to a definitive ending anywhere but the frame.

[Ninefingers]

Your the second person in as many days to suggest the Amyr are secretly some malevolent force in the world. Do you mean the human Amyr of the Aturan Empire? The Selitos/Tehlu Amyr charged by Aleph with thwarting the Chandrian do not strike me as the malevolent type.

"Malevolent" may be an overstatement, but I think the "big reveal" in D3 is going to be Kvothe finding out that he's made some really bad assumptions about who the "good guys" and "bad guys" are.

Flashback Kvothe at the end of day 2 KNOWS that the Amyr are good and the Seven are bad.

But what if they're two sides of the same coin? The Amyr do bad [stuff] in the service of the greater good - who's to say that the Seven aren't doing the same? Who decides what the "greater good" really is?

[jet199]

Your statements began with “I think..” and “There’s a good chance” I took that to mean you subscribe to the belief(s) outlined in those statements or at the least find them plausible. I wanted to hear your arguments. No matter.

The little girl Nina found the picture scary. She didn’t really know what she was looking at more than an angry person with bloody hands. Didn’t she say the Amyr on the pottery was giving some defiant gesture or some such?

Are you suggesting that Denna’s ‘patron’, who beats her into unconsciousness on a regular basis, is some secret do-gooder out to correct some historical inaccuracy? It seems the only people who suggest the Amyr are evil are a confused little girl who saw a picture that she did not understand and Denna who got the information from her patron… a patron who is in all likelihood either one of the Chandrian or a pagan [chandrian] worshiping Bredon. Against that we have Skarpi’s tale and the corroborating partial accounts of Auri, Felurian, Simmon, and Haliax himself. Even Lorren suggests that most young boys would want to pretend at being hero Amyr in their playing…

It’s not that anyone was or is ‘covering up’ the Amyr’s mis-deeds… they are all but removing them from the historical records. Even mundane details like how many troops, how many heavy horse could they put to field, etc. are entirely stricken from the historical records of multiple churches, multiple states, and multiple private entities.

Kvothe didn’t kill a bunch of troupers… he killed a bunch of bandits who killed a bunch of troupers, assumed their place, and kidnapped & raped some local girls in the town they visited. Leaving the water skin may not have been of the Lethani, but everything up to that seems safe. The Chandrian, on the other hand, did kill a bunch of innocent troupers … for no better reason than two of them happened to mention their names during rehearsal of a song.

As for the thievery... yes, he stole some things when he was at great need, but he also paid for things he didn't need to pay for. And when he returned, he gave as much money to Trapis as Trapis would accept & repaid the cobbler/tailor/bookbinder/inn-keeper for the help they wittingly or unwittingly gave him. Yes, he robbed Ambrose... but he did so to get Denna's ring back.

I think there is a good chance that Denna's patron is one of the chadrian so, no I don't think he is un-biased. I think the truth probably lies in between what Kvothe and Denna believe. I don't think Nina should be dismissed so easily and if you want to dismiss her you need to have more reason that because she is a little girl, Kvothe saw the chadrian when he was a little boy does that make his impression of them wrong? She has seen something thousands of years old and so has more direct knowledge than any storyteller. She says that the Amyr is the worst on figure on the pot "He looked like he was ready to burn down the whole world." I don't think it is any co-incidence that when Patrick put bad things down about the Amyr he did it through two unreliable sources . If he wants to foreshadow a twist he isn't going to be on the nose about it.

I think that the fact little boys want to be Amyr is bad sign rather than good. The books are about who stories change and hide as well as reveal the truth so I would assume the stories about the Amyr have been corrupted as much, if not more so, as the stories about Kvothe. Also while we apparently have Simmon for the Amyr we have him very much against Gibea (like any sensible person) who almost certainly was a secret Amyr and killed thousands. Now Patrick might think that thousands of people dying for a bit of knowledge is a good thing but I doubt it. I also doubt that Kvothe will go full Richard Rahl (I do bad stuff but it's ok 'cause I'm good), I think Patrick is trying is seduce us with that kind of character but we know it all goes very badly for Kvothe so the next book will be about de-constructing that type of character.

Just checked and Kvothe poisons the stew and ale well before the girls are even mentioned so he planned to kill the false troopers just for stealing and not being Ruh, not for anything else. He then has to try to stop the girls eating the stew and has to give them a counter-toxin because they weren't part of his plan. He doesn't know that they killed the troop until he has killed most of them and Alleg confesses.

Kvothe continues to steal throughout the books even when he has no pressing need. Often it is just petty punishment against people he thinks have wronged him. Why he palms 3 royals from the bandit camp rather than saying "lets have 4 each" I do not know. His need is probably less than that of his companions. Stealing has become a bad habit.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Lifting Ambrose's purse was an action of petty thievery not an attempt to find Denna's ring. Ambrose may be a douche but I think Kvothe was too.

I have no qualms whatsoever with his robbing Ambrose. I count that a mark in Kvothe's favor. Ambrose deserved much worse. Merely robbing him and burning down his room was a kindness.

"Malevolent" may be an overstatement, but I think the "big reveal" in D3 is going to be Kvothe finding out that he's made some really bad assumptions about who the "good guys" and "bad guys" are.

Flashback Kvothe at the end of day 2 KNOWS that the Amyr are good and the Seven are bad.

But what if they're two sides of the same coin? The Amyr do bad [stuff] in the service of the greater good - who's to say that the Seven aren't doing the same? Who decides what the "greater good" really is?

Well I suppose if we're relying on definitive evidence, I guess we aren't 100% certain the Amyr are good... but I'm not sure that's really the point I'm trying to make. I buy the story that the Amyr were a response to Lanre's betrayal & the destruction of Myr Tirinial, and accordingly their chief purpose was/is to thwart the Seven in any way they can. (Odd mentioning the Seven here and not referring to the Andals) This may appear as good to some people and evil to others... but the Amyr's overriding goal is to stop the Chandrian. I believe we will see this conflict with Kvothe in D3. I predict Denna's song/patron brings down the wrath of the Amyr - the real Amyr... Ordal, Tehlu, etc.- and Kvothe is forced to kill one of them. Hence the many allusions to 'killing an angel'.

There is also no doubt that the Chandrian will massacre large groups of people for as little as mentioning their name more than once, or displaying a depiction of them to several people. I don't know how that can be anything other than evil. I don't know of any stories of the Amyr -human or otherwise- behaving in such a manner. If that was the Amyr's MO, there would be records of it in the oral history, as there are with the Chandrian.

Recall Skarpi's conversation with the Tehlin Justice... the foundation of the Tehlin church may have it's roots in similar anti-chandrian sentiment. Hard to say.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SoMA,

From who's perspective are we being told of Ambrose? We know Kvothe lies, perhaps he's lieing about Ambrose too?

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

He is a thief. That's what thieves do. Spend 3 of your formative years scratching a meager existence in a medieval city and your bound to acquire a few nasty habits.

I'd say he's rather conscientious with his thievery ... The Maer's sending him out to deal with the bandits was what Kvothe thought it to be... a way to remove him from court now that he has served his purpose and knows so much....

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SoMA,

His actions with the false Ruh? Justified before he knew of the girls?

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

SoMA,

From who's perspective are we being told of Ambrose? We know Kvothe lies, perhaps he's lieing about Ambrose too?

I believe he's gone well out of his way to point out that this telling will be a complete telling of his deeds... all of triumphs and all of the foolish mistakes. There have been plenty of foolish mistakes detailed in their entirety.

If you're going to take that tack, you could ultimately dispute anything by saying 'well, what if he's lying'.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Just checked and Kvothe poisons the stew and ale well before the girls are even mentioned so he planned to kill the false troopers just for stealing and not being Ruh, not for anything else. He then has to try to stop the girls eating the stew and has to give them a counter-toxin because they weren't part of his plan. He doesn't know that they killed the troop until he has killed most of them and Alleg confesses.

Kvothe continues to steal throughout the books even when he has no pressing need. Often it is just petty punishment against people he thinks have wronged him. Why he palms 3 royals from the bandit camp rather than saying "lets have 4 each" I do not know. His need is probably less than that of his companions. Stealing has become a bad habit.

SoMA,

His actions with the false Ruh? Justified before he knew of the girls?

My previous comment was referring to the bandits in the woods that he was tasked to root out by the Maer and Kvothe's palming of 3 royals.

CONCERNING the Ruh Impersonators... He knew they were impersonating Ruh from the beginning. The girls only sealed their fate. What he learned from Alleg was that Alleg had travelled with them and was part of their 'family'... that's what enraged Kvothe even more... that made it so much worse.

Who's to say what he would've done had the girls not been there... probably the same thing, less the water skin. But considering what he experienced with the Chandrian... I can imagine the thought of another happy Ruh troupe being massacred by bandits struck a nerve... Kvothe killed no troupers... he killed the bandits who killed the troupers.