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Wise Man's Fear X (SPOILERS)


Elaena Targaryen

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I've always wondered about that line. It is inconsistent with Kvothe's oft-expressed regret for his actions- particularly in my imagination, where Kvothe seeks to open the Lackless door, is opposed by Ordal, and kills her.

Agree on much...

Does Denna not figure into your scenario? I get the distinct impression she is no longer among the living. I had long thought the ‘heart’s desire’ K sought out (which in the act of seeking precipitated whatever unpleasant thing occurred, including the slaying of a Ruach/Angel type) was the Chandrian…. But im increasingly shifting towards something pertaining to Denna. A few theories could include both.

I also agree that Kvothe breached the doors of stone. Perhaps that has something to do with the “he made a deal with a demon….” Line - Kvothe is offered something/someone in exchange for opening the doors of stone. This would go a long way towards explaining the apparent sudden influx of worst-of-the-worst faen creature into the 4C’s. It would also help explain why the skin dancer seemed so out of sorts...unsure of its ability, Speaking an old archaic tounge. It has been locked behind the doors of stone for thousands of years and experienced considerable atrophy…

What if Kvothe accidentally released all of the things locked behind the doors of stone after the Drossen Tor?

SotMA,

Kvothe pretty clearly wears a grey hat. I think it would be very interesting if it turns out Kvothe really wears a black hat.

On Kvothe himself and his alleged hat color, I can't think of one instance where he acted with malice... The levinsvire incident was retribution, as was all of his violence that comes to mind. In the 4C’s, justice can come from one of only a very few ways... The oft corrupt inconsistent and bureaucratic iron law, the even more corrupted church law, internal organizational jurisprudence (University is an excellent example of this), vigilante retribution, or not at all. When you are outside of a town/city, the first two options are no longer available, and your choice becomes 1. Do something yourself, or 2. Do nothing and go about your business. Considering Kvothe’s nature and what he has lived through, it is little surprise that shrugging off gross injustice doesn’t exactly appeal to him… especially when it is within his power to take matters into his own hands and go about ‘right-ing’ and obvious ‘wrong. It doesn’t always work out for the best, but that hardly makes him a bad person. One could argue that his handling of the false Ruh was an internal organizational bit of jurisprudence. The University whips/expels their own for grievous infractions like malfeasance, the Ruh execute and brand their own for what they consider to be grievous infractions. I’m firmly in kindly old lady Gran’s camp when it comes to dealing with such people. “And some folk need killing. That’s all there is to it.”

Our society isn’t terribly different… if a person has a concealed carry permit and is so armed, and some evening he or she happens upon someone being kidnapped/raped/murdered/grievously injured, said armed permit holder is acting well within the law by bringing lethal force to bear on the offending person...

No doubt you’ll bring up Ambrose… well think on this: the Chandrian killed Kvothe’s troupe for composing a song about them, Ambrose hired men to kill Kvothe for composing a song about him. Ambrose also poisoned Kvothe, bought the fancy inn which had hired Kvothe just to throw him out, attempted to sabotage his attempt at self-sufficiency through musical performance, got him banned from the archives, destroyed his instrument – his only potential source of income outside of the fishery, and tried to get Kvothe expelled.

I cannot think of a single incident where Kvothe acted from malice. I can think of many instances where Kvothe acted decidedly against his own self interests in order to help others. In fact he’s almost constantly going out of his way to help others.

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At best he insulted/embarrassed Ambrose. Ambrose tried to kill and poison Kvothe, tried to expel him and may even have had his ship sunk. I have a very hard time equating the two. It began when Ambrose was manhandling Fela and Kvothe intervened. That's what he does... he intervenes, invariably on the side of the innocent and oppressed. Ambrose has never done anything like that. He beats his whores. He harms women left and right. My tolerance for such behavior is very low. It pleases me that Kvothe's is as well.

Simmon has it right... Kvothe sees a problem and he solves it. Not always the best way, but the problem gets fixed. The world needs more people like that.

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Ambrose is fairly high in the line of successsion (about 12?) - my guess is he ends up king (either through sympathy or the king's chef fucks up royally with the cooking), maybe he's the king Kvothe kills?

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Ambrose is fairly high in the line of successsion (about 12?) - my guess is he ends up king (either through sympathy or the king's chef fucks up royally with the cooking), maybe he's the king Kvothe kills?

An appealing idea. I would so like to see him die.

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I cannot think of a single incident where Kvothe acted from malice. I can think of many instances where Kvothe acted decidedly against his own self interests in order to help others. In fact he’s almost constantly going out of his way to help others.

Let me help you.

There was the tailor and book selling he bullied/cheated in Tarbean. Not malicious? How about the burning of Hemme's foot? It's been awhile since I've read the books, but I'm pretty sure there are more examples besides his fight with Ambrose.

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Ambrose is fairly high in the line of successsion (about 12?) - my guess is he ends up king (either through sympathy or the king's chef fucks up royally with the cooking), maybe he's the king Kvothe kills?

As pleasing as that would be.... that's a lot of noble lines coming to an end in a rather short period of time.

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Let me help you.

There was the tailor and book selling he bullied/cheated in Tarbean. Not malicious? How about the burning of Hemme's foot? It's been awhile since I've read the books, but I'm pretty sure there are more examples besides his fight with Ambrose.

That's not 'malice'... that's being clever after his mind returned from the doors of forgetfulness after a 3+ year sabbatical and found him living on a chimney half feral. We're talking about a child who found everyone he'd ever known brutally cut to pieces by demonic beings, who wandered in the woods for a few months, and managed to not get killed while living like an animal in Tarbean for 3 years. After going through all of that, I'd hardly call tricking a tailor into providing you nice clothes at a low price "Malicious" Moreover, when he returned to Tarbean 2 years later he paid back the tailor, bookbinder, cobbler and Trapis.

Kvothe didn't intend to harm any of those people, nor did he.

I suppose in your opinion in Lord of the Rings Aragorn is an unredeemable scum bag because he withholds his true name from Frodo for a time?

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I don't want to put words into (or take them out of) anyone's mouth, but is anyone really arguing that Kvothe is a bad guy? I think the point (and again, maybe I'm wrong) is that maybe Kvothe isn't quite the complete good guy that we think he is, that he wants to think he is. After all, we do only know his side of things, and we're always the hero of our own story (maybe I've just read too much Gene Wolfe, but I generally believe any narrator to be unreliable, otherwise, it's no fun). I certainly think he generally has the best of intentions, but thus are the paths to hell paved.


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Matt b,

Exactly. Kvothe is telling hisnown story and admits, in the frame he's not above making himself appear more noble than he really is. Kvothe is human, he's falible, and he's a long way from perfect (allegations of Gary Studom aside). That's the point. Kvothe is not the fantasy archetype hero some think he is. He's a guy using the Chronicler to sell his own story. As such, while it is entertaining , we cannot know how much of it is actually true.

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SotMA,

The rancid butter Kvothe threw down Ambrose's chimmney? Loosening Ambrose's saddle straps, that could have killed Ambrose.

Again, there is considerable difference between ‘could potentially cause harm’ (which, I should point out, it did not) and

-hiring hit men

-administering an alchemical poison,

-and having a person falsely arrested, dragged through the streets, and tried on bogus charges against the iron law

-possibly sinking Kvothe’s ship

Ambrose’s goal was almost always physical harm and or death

Kvothe’s goal was always embarrassment.

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SotMA,

This is what I can't figure out. Most complain Kvothe is a Gary Stu. You seem to be upset he might not be one. From what we have heard from Kvothe he's not as big a dick as Ambrose. Nevertheless, by his own words he kept poking at the bear that is Ambrose for no good reason. That is malicious.

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I don't want to put words into (or take them out of) anyone's mouth, but is anyone really arguing that Kvothe is a bad guy? I think the point (and again, maybe I'm wrong) is that maybe Kvothe isn't quite the complete good guy that we think he is, that he wants to think he is. After all, we do only know his side of things, and we're always the hero of our own story (maybe I've just read too much Gene Wolfe, but I generally believe any narrator to be unreliable, otherwise, it's no fun). I certainly think he generally has the best of intentions, but thus are the paths to hell paved.

I am afraid that is what they are arguing. And that is largely what vexes me. Perfect? No, of course not. But there's far more 'good' in him than there is 'evil'. If the stinking butter trick is the height of his malicious evil this far in, I think he's doing pretty well.

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SotMA,

This is what I can't figure out. Most complain Kvothe is a Gary Stu. You seem to be upset he might not be one. From what we have heard from Kvothe he's not as big a dick as Ambrose. Nevertheless, by his own words he kept poking at the bear that is Ambrose for no good reason. That is malicious.

I'd say it's foolish, but that's about as far as I'd go.

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