The enigma of Hoster Tully, what's your take?

[Lee-Sensei]

The only thing he and Tywin have in common is their political savvy.

And his ruthlessness.

[TheCrannogDweller]

And his ruthlessness.

He wasn't nearly as ruthless as Tywin. He did put Lord Goodbrook's town to the torch, but he didn't execute every member of the House.

[David Selig]

Not that it makes it OK, but let's not kid ourselves, pretty much every single noble in Westeros would've dealt with a bannermen rebellion the same way as Hoster did, some like Tywin would've been worse (the son of Lord Goldbrook survived and even kept a lot of the lands of the family). Yes, Ned would have done it too.

[Bob Sacamano]

Ok, some people are calling him an asshole for putting villages to the torch. Ned would have done the same exact thing to a place like Castle Cerwyn had they not supported the Starks.

[khalhotpie]

Excellent politican and terrible with his family

If hed simply left blackfish alone hed have kept one of the finest military men in the kingdom with him ..if the blackfish is gay theories arent true then maybe even in time hed have taken a powerful lords daughter of his choosing

Either way the lannisters prob wouldnt have smashed the riverlands forces as easily or at all if the blackfish had been there for years.

If hed simpy accepted lysa as 'ruined' by medieval standards and forced LF to marry then hed still have to back robert rebellion (ned and cat) , he wouldnt have a daughter that despises him and hed have a new son in law that would have prob boosted the riverlands economy and be cunning enough to neutrailze the freys.

[Wmarshal]

Not that it makes it OK, but let's not kid ourselves, every single noble in Westeros would've dealt with a bannermen rebellion the same way as Hoster did, some like Tywin would've been worse (the son of Lord Goldbrook survived and even kept a lot of the lands of the family). Yes, Ned would have done it too.

Ned did not belief in such acts of revenge but true justice. Shame his son did not share the belief

[greywind93]

Robb was a king with a kingdom to protect and feed he was trying to do this is it his fault tywin burnt hugh amount of the riverlands and would leave his people starving no isn't. is it fair that the westeners smallfolk had to pay the price no. but they arn't part of his kingdom

[Winterfell is Burning]

He was Tywin-lite. A capable player, but not the nicest man.

Well, to be fair, considering Hoster is older and seems like was Lord Paramount for a lot longer, maybe we should call Tywin a more extreme version of Tully.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think that he was just like Tywin. Sold his daughters for his support and putted entire villages to the sword.

[The Wolves]

Ok, some people are calling him an asshole for putting villages to the torch. Ned would have done the same exact thing to a place like Castle Cerwyn had they not supported the Starks.

If Hoster attacked lords and villages for refusing to fight Targaryens than that makes him a punk bitch and I hate him. People have the right to not fight if they choose too.

I would understand if they had fought Hoster but to kill and terrorize people because they refuse to fight is horrific and evil and if it was Ned or anybody else I would hate on them also.

[TheCrannogDweller]

People have the right to not fight if they choose too.

Lord Goodbrook didn't refuse to fight - he refused to join the Rebels and chose to support the Targaryen side. That's not neutrality, that's defying your liege lord and choosing to support his enemy.

I'm not saying that Hoster was justified in his destruction, but Lord Goodbrook was far from being the hapless, pacifist victim your post paints him as.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

He wasn't nearly as ruthless as Tywin. He did put Lord Goodbrook's town to the torch, but he didn't execute every member of the House.

He put Goodbrock's villages to the sword.

[khalhotpie]

And his ruthlessness.

They arent even close in ruthlessness

u think some minor lordlings son would even dare impregnate cersei ? or that hed care hed aborted a bastard? or tolerated the freys ?

or had a brother openly refuse his commands?

Hoster tully with tywins ruthlessnes right after the trident smashes the frey forces for 'turning up late' then takes the twins and seats edmure there..or goes there and does something that gets him his own rains of castermere style song

hoster tully with tywins ruthlessness takes young littlefinger to one side and informs him that if he sees him so much as eyeing his daughters up hel have himself a hunting accident

[David Selig]

Lord Goodbrook didn't refuse to fight - he refused to join the Rebels and chose to support the Targaryen side. That's not neutrality, that's defying your liege lord and choosing to support his enemy.

I'm not saying that Hoster was justified in his destruction, but Lord Goodbrook was far from being the hapless, pacifist victim your post paints him as.

Yep.

Walder frey stayed neutral and nothing happened to him or his subjects.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

He could have had 4 LP grandchildren if the marriage proposal between Edmure and Arianne had been successful.

And another one as Queen of Westeros, with a great-grandchild as King.

--> If Joffrey+Sansa had worked out

Actually it would have been 3 Lords Paramount, a Prince of Dorne, and a Queen. By extension his grandchild would be Prince or Princess of Dorne and his great-grandson King of Westeros.

<snip

1. Cats marriage to Ned. He lucked out on this one but passing his daughter to the younger brother? Cat and Lysa got pimped out just as bad as Marg.

<snip

Cat was betrothed to Brandon who was the firstborn son and heir of House Stark. When Brandon died, Ned became the heir and honored the betrothal his own father had agreed to. Thus Catelyn Tully still became Lady Stark. Hoster didn't do anything wrong with that one. I agree about Lysa.

In response to a point about the OP. Hoster's putting his bannermen to the sword could have caused the lack of support for Edmure during the Wot5K simply because the number of fighting men in those families he punished hadn't been fully replenished yet. It was only 15/16 years between RR and Robb's becoming KitN. If all the men of fighting age who had refused to answer when Hoster called his banners were killed, that means a lot of waiting for younger boys to grow up. Women had to remarry and have more sons.

What he did to Lysa was awful. However, at the end of his life he was consumed by remorse for it. I think he considered it his greatest sin, and finally understood the damage he had caused. How many other noblemen ever repented of their worst crimes, even against their own family? Tywin Lannister certainly never showed any kind of conscience about his actions.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

They arent even close in ruthlessness

u think some minor lordlings son would even dare impregnate cersei ? or that hed care hed aborted a bastard? or tolerated the freys ?

or had a brother openly refuse his commands?

Hoster tully with tywins ruthlessnes right after the trident smashes the frey forces for 'turning up late' then takes the twins and seats edmure there..or goes there and does something that gets him his own rains of castermere style song

hoster tully with tywins ruthlessness takes young littlefinger to one side and informs him that if he sees him so much as eyeing his daughters up hel have himself a hunting accident

Actually I think Tywin would have arranged for LF's accident without talking to him first. He also would have forced Brynden's marriage or laid some kind of severe punishement on him for his refusal. Though it's possible that if Hoster had been as bad as Tywin, Lysa would never have dared to sleep with LF, and Brynden would never have refused to wed.

[Booknerd2]

I give him points back for his handling of the Lysa situation. It is apparent he really regretted it later in life, as many people do later on.

I also flip flop regarding his handling of Walder Frey and his "lateness." I think he knew what a grudge-holding, double-dealing shit he could be, and assessing, chose to do nothing on purpose due to the number of Freys. I think between two choices: I can overlook it and he will be disreputable and dishonored of his own doing Vs. I can watch my back and my family's for the rest of our lives from many Freys if I act. I think choosing the later was the better option. However, he could not foresee his grandson's Robb's actions with Jeyne.

My biggest series regret is: (Which obviously is contrived and lays the path for Cat and Robb to deal with Walder, especially with a not the best thinker Edmure.)

I wish he did have his faculties at the bridge crossing debacle. Would have LOVED to hear how he advised Cat and Robb when dealing with Walder and Robb agreeing to those conditions to cross. Then again, if he was in rare form, would Walder have dared?

[Mad Monkey]

Not that it makes it OK, but let's not kid ourselves, pretty much every single noble in Westeros would've dealt with a bannermen rebellion the same way as Hoster did, some like Tywin would've been worse (the son of Lord Goldbrook survived and even kept a lot of the lands of the family). Yes, Ned would have done it too.

A similar example was Axell's plan to put Claw Isle to the sword to punish the people living there for the fact that the lord of Claw Isle bent the knee to Joffrey after the Blackwater. Stannis and Davos are repulsed by this notion because even in Westeros the idea of killing innocent people -- widows and children, for the most part -- for the crimes of a feudal lord that they did not choose and they have no control over is unfair and this is an attitude that exists in Westeros too. It seems to vary based on individual lords -- Hoster and Tywin definitely would, but Stannis wouldn't. Ned, Doran, etc. probably all fall on one side or another on this issue.

[TheCrannogDweller]

He putted Goodbrock's villages to the sword.

He put Goodbrook's village* to the sword. One village.

Hoster's putting his bannermen to the sword could have caused the lack of support for Edmure during the Wot5K simply because the number of fighting men in those families he punished hadn't been fully replenished yet.

While there were losses in the Riverlands, most of them probably happened in the battles of Stony Sept and the Trident, where there were riverlords on both sides. And I don't think Edmure really experienced a shortage of men. As I said above, even after Tywin set the Riverlands afire and Jaime defeated him at Riverrun, Edmure was still able to gather 11 000 men to defend the Fords, and that was without the Freys.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

He put Goodbrook's village* to the sword. One village.

My mistake. But how is killing a whole village who have done nothing to him justified.