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Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions


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#1 Light a wight tonight

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 08:38 AM

Would it be the height of irony that Jon in fact becomes King of Westeros? I mean, if he's the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and if Aegon's a fake he's the heir. So Lord Rickard's grandson becomes King. Isn't that in line with what Rickard wanted?

 

The irony is that Rickard and Brandon were foully killed by Aerys, Jons other grandpa, and quite possibly at the urging of Varys, who probably suspected Rickard of wanting to undermine Aerys.



#2 Free Northman Reborn

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 08:40 AM

I think Rickard's ambitions were to forge an alliance to overthrow the Iron Throne, rather than just putting a candidate of his choice on it.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn, 04 May 2014 - 08:40 AM.


#3 Light a wight tonight

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 08:56 AM

I think Rickard's ambitions were to forge an alliance to overthrow the Iron Throne, rather than just putting a candidate of his choice on it.

Then it becomes more ironic with his grandson on the throne he wants to overthrow.



#4 Pikachu101

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 08:57 AM

Would it be the height of irony that Jon in fact becomes King of Westeros? I mean, if he's the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and if Aegon's a fake he's the heir. So Lord Rickard's grandson becomes King. Isn't that in line with what Rickard wanted?


This is all built on the idea that people would believe let alone care that Jon's legitimate.

Rickard didn't want the Iron Throne, where did you get that from? He wanted to increase the North's power over the South through Tully and Baratheon alliances yes, but there's nothing that hinted he wanted the throne.

I think Rickard's ambitions were to forge an alliance to overthrow the Iron Throne, rather than just putting a candidate of his choice on it.


Where are you getting that from? It was never mentioned that Rickard wanted the Iron Throne, and judging by his reaction to Rhaegar taking his daughter I don't think he ever did.

#5 Light a wight tonight

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 09:05 AM

This is all built on the idea that people would believe let alone care that Jon's legitimate.

Rickard didn't want the Iron Throne, where did you get that from? He wanted to increase the North's power over the South through Tully and Baratheon alliances yes, but there's nothing that hinted he wanted the throne.


Where are you getting that from? It was never mentioned that Rickard wanted the Iron Throne, and judging by his reaction to Rhaegar taking his daughter I don't think he ever did.

We don't know what Rickard wanted. A Stark grandson on the throne would certainly increase Stark influence in the South.

 

It was Brandon that reacted violently to Lyanna's abduction. Rickard went peaceably to King's Landing expecting justice. 



#6 E-Ro

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 09:07 AM

I really think he just wanted to say fuck a targ, and get rid of them, rather then put a candidate on the throne.

#7 The Fallen

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 09:20 AM

`  I don't think any of this makes sense.

 

   This is based on Barbry Dustin stating Rickard had southron ambitions. That could simply mean he wished he was from the south (or admired the south) and thus wanted to marry his children to southern houses in order for the North to become more southesque.

 

   Why would Rickard want to overthrow the Iron Throne? There's no evidence the North gave two shits about what happened in King's Landing.

 

   Why would Rickard want to dominate the south? With the Targs holding power the North doesn't have to worry about the south attacking the North.

 

   I've yet to see a good, solid argument for this supposed conspiracy by Rickard against the I.T. or the south in general.



#8 Free Northman Reborn

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 10:12 AM

Where are you getting that from? It was never mentioned that Rickard wanted the Iron Throne, and judging by his reaction to Rhaegar taking his daughter I don't think he ever did.

Strange. That is exactly what I said. That he didn't want the Iron Throne. He wanted to get rid of it.



#9 Arlan of Pennytree

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 12:06 PM

Rickard was summoned to the Red Keep because of the actions of his son, Brandon.  Brandon, we know, was ruled by emotion, unlike Eddard and Rickard (because we know Rickard counseled against the course of action brandon took), and threatened the life of the Prince and heir, Rhaegar. 

 

Whether he wanted it or not, the irony will be there when Jon sits his arse 'apon' the iron throne. . .



#10 Hippocras

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 12:14 PM

`  I don't think any of this makes sense.
 
   This is based on Barbry Dustin stating Rickard had southron ambitions. That could simply mean he wished he was from the south (or admired the south) and thus wanted to marry his children to southern houses in order for the North to become more southesque.
 
   Why would Rickard want to overthrow the Iron Throne? There's no evidence the North gave two shits about what happened in King's Landing.
 
   Why would Rickard want to dominate the south? With the Targs holding power the North doesn't have to worry about the south attacking the North.
 
   I've yet to see a good, solid argument for this supposed conspiracy by Rickard against the I.T. or the south in general.


I agree, he didn't particularly care about the Throne except.....

He might have cared about the steady decline of the Night's Watch. Improving Northern power for him might have been related to a genuine attempt to get the South to take the threat from the North more seriously, and to send a few more good people to help at the Wall instead of only ever the worst scum of the Kingdoms.

#11 AntZ

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 12:24 PM

I think the plan was always to make Robert king and in turn Lyanna the queen. Tywin wanted to make Cersei queen and he actually did it. But we saw how it worked out. Some of them are dead and it will get them all killed. If Rickard wanted to make Lyanna queen, he actually did it too. Though it might be arguable whether Lyanna was ever technically the queen. Regardless, it got all of them killed.


Edited by Paper Waver, 04 May 2014 - 12:25 PM.


#12 AryaNymeriaVisenya

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 12:33 PM

Its hard to wonder what his ambitions were as he was discussing it with Jon Arryn and Arryn seemed to change nothing even with Robert 'Wax Seal' Baratheon. Unless demise of the Targs was always the plan



#13 Lady Blizzardborn

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 03:23 PM

Rickard had no ambitions toward the throne?  Really?  Then why did he betroth his daughter to a member of a House with blood ties to the ruling family, a house that has in the past married one of their daughters to the Targaryens, and has taken at least one Targaryen bride?  You seriously think he didn't consider the possibility of his descendants getting a shot at the throne?  And betrothing Brandon to Catelyn Tully guaranteed the support of the Riverlands for the future Baratheon claimant if the opportunity ever arose.  Ned probably would have been betrothed to another powerful family (in Dorne or the Vale, most likely) to solidify the power base.  Too bad Rickard didn't get around to that one.  Would have told us a lot about his intentions.

 

I'm not saying he expected to have a grandchild on the throne, but I think he had a long-ranging plan to get Stark blood in the running and steadily gaining power throughout the land.  If not king or queen, I think he was going for Hand at least.  Remember he didn't just offer Lyanna to the Baratheons, he also fostered Ned with the same man who was fostering Robert.  Robert, cousin to the king.  If those moves weren't power plays, what were they?


Edited by Lady Blizzardborn, 04 May 2014 - 03:24 PM.


#14 Lady Blizzardborn

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 03:31 PM

Would it be the height of irony that Jon in fact becomes King of Westeros? I mean, if he's the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and if Aegon's a fake he's the heir. So Lord Rickard's grandson becomes King. Isn't that in line with what Rickard wanted?

 

The irony is that Rickard and Brandon were foully killed by Aerys, Jons other grandpa, and quite possibly at the urging of Varys, who probably suspected Rickard of wanting to undermine Aerys.

In-laws can be such a pain.

 

I don't think Varys urged Aerys to burn people.  I think he did exactly what he was paid to do, inform the king of threats and plots.  You know there were plenty of threats and plots given Aerys' firebug tendencies and other issues.  It's rather sad really that it was his own behavior that all but guaranteed people would come up with schemes to get rid of him.  He was paranoid, but there likely were people plotting against him, including his own son.

 

Varys gets blamed for the "rot" in Aerys' reign but the timing could be coincidental.  Why would a sound-minded Aerys hire a spy from the Free Cities to run Westerosi intelligence?  Seems to me that his hiring Varys (a foreigner and a eunuch for crying out loud!) is evidence that the paranoia had already set in.  



#15 Thendel

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 03:59 PM

While it's fairly clear that Rickard did have his sight beyond the borders of the North, this does not mean he had ambitions for the throne itself. My reading is that Rickard sought to raise House Stark's position among the great houses and create a political power block to check the power of the throne. The true mastermind behind it all, however, was most likely Jon Arryn, a man with a proven political accumen.



#16 Pikachu101

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 06:17 PM

I think the plan was always to make Robert king and in turn Lyanna the queen. Tywin wanted to make Cersei queen and he actually did it. But we saw how it worked out. Some of them are dead and it will get them all killed. If Rickard wanted to make Lyanna queen, he actually did it too. Though it might be arguable whether Lyanna was ever technically the queen. Regardless, it got all of them killed.


Did I miss something? Where is everyone getting the idea that people wanted to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty?

There was rumours of overthrowing Aerys and crowing Rhaegar, but no one was planning on making Robert king. That was triggered by Lyanna's abduction and Aerys' reaction.

If Rickard was interested in the crown he would have tried to marry Lyanna to Viserys not Robert. The only nobleman who showed interest in the crown was Tywin, and he didn't contemplate overthrowing the Targs either.

#17 the conquoring bastard25

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 06:48 PM

Why else would Rickard Stark marry his daughter to a man that was 4 in line for the throne. Remove the king, Rheagar, and Visenys as Aegon wouldn't have been born when they made these plans.
By this time Duskendale and it's damage had already happen.

Tywin, Hosteen, Arryn, Baelish and Blackfish and more were fighting down in the Stepstones for the final Blackfyre rebellion.

It seems when you add in the fact that Hosteen was planning to marry Blackfish to a Hightower, which is at least half of the Reach's powerbase and more than likely one of the Iron Throne's main powerbase. Take that away and well...it's a game of dominoes.

If the goal wasn't to overthrow to throne then it was to cede from the realm.

The only thing that makes sense if that Rickard was gathering swords and alliances to topple the IT.

An alliance between the Rock, Stone, River,North and a split power base of the Reach and Dorne. The throne is almost theirs.

Jamie was suppose to marry Lysa Tully, Starks other ally. Ned falling for Dayne was the best thing that could have happened to this alliance. They could have married and that splits the alliegance of the Dornish the other powerbase of House Targ. Leaving them only the crownlands and what ever force they can gather from a civil war torn reach and dorne.

That's the only outcome I can gather. That's why Rheagar held the tourney of Harrenhal. He must have heard some of the plot, Whent is uncle to Cat and good brother to Hosteen. He must have gotten some word of the plot holds the tourney. From there crowning Lyanna is served two fold. It tells the conspiritors that he's on to them but that him marrying Lyanna could be a viable solution. Support him and he will take the throne from his father, make your sister a queen and the realm need not bleed.

With Lyanna Queen, she can name the honors that she wants bestowed upon her family. This might also be part of her motivation to run with Rheagar. To prevent bloodshed and Rhe's family not falling she runs with him.

#18 Lady Blizzardborn

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 11:25 PM

Did I miss something? Where is everyone getting the idea that people wanted to overthrow the Targaryen dynasty?

There was rumours of overthrowing Aerys and crowing Rhaegar, but no one was planning on making Robert king. That was triggered by Lyanna's abduction and Aerys' reaction.

If Rickard was interested in the crown he would have tried to marry Lyanna to Viserys not Robert. The only nobleman who showed interest in the crown was Tywin, and he didn't contemplate overthrowing the Targs either.

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that Rickard wanted to overthrow anyone.  I figure he wanted his descendants on the throne eventually but understood it could take many generations to accomplish that.

 

Betrothing Lyanna to Viserys would never have happened.  He was about six years old when the Tourney of Harrenhal took place.  But I see your point.  Of course he might have offered her for Rhaegar at some point and been turned down by Aerys because the Starks weren't Valyrian enough for his taste.  Makes sense considering they aren't Valyrian at all.


Edited by Lady Blizzardborn, 04 May 2014 - 11:26 PM.


#19 Aetta

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 11:47 PM

Why else would Rickard Stark marry his daughter to a man that was 4 in line for the throne. Remove the king, Rheagar, and Visenys as Aegon wouldn't have been born when they made these plans.
By this time Duskendale and it's damage had already happen.

Tywin, Hosteen, Arryn, Baelish and Blackfish and more were fighting down in the Stepstones for the final Blackfyre rebellion.

It seems when you add in the fact that Hosteen was planning to marry Blackfish to a Hightower, which is at least half of the Reach's powerbase and more than likely one of the Iron Throne's main powerbase. Take that away and well...it's a game of dominoes.

If the goal wasn't to overthrow to throne then it was to cede from the realm.

The only thing that makes sense if that Rickard was gathering swords and alliances to topple the IT.

An alliance between the Rock, Stone, River,North and a split power base of the Reach and Dorne. The throne is almost theirs.

Jamie was suppose to marry Lysa Tully, Starks other ally. Ned falling for Dayne was the best thing that could have happened to this alliance. They could have married and that splits the alliegance of the Dornish the other powerbase of House Targ. Leaving them only the crownlands and what ever force they can gather from a civil war torn reach and dorne.

That's the only outcome I can gather. That's why Rheagar held the tourney of Harrenhal. He must have heard some of the plot, Whent is uncle to Cat and good brother to Hosteen. He must have gotten some word of the plot holds the tourney. From there crowning Lyanna is served two fold. It tells the conspiritors that he's on to them but that him marrying Lyanna could be a viable solution. Support him and he will take the throne from his father, make your sister a queen and the realm need not bleed.

With Lyanna Queen, she can name the honors that she wants bestowed upon her family. This might also be part of her motivation to run with Rheagar. To prevent bloodshed and Rhe's family not falling she runs with him.

 

 

I giggled at the fact that you don't mention the Iron Islands at all.  Not only don't the characters in the books give a shit about the Greyjoys, the readers don't either.



#20 Aetta

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 11:49 PM

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that Rickard wanted to overthrow anyone.  I figure he wanted his descendants on the throne eventually but understood it could take many generations to accomplish that.

 

Betrothing Lyanna to Viserys would never have happened.  He was about six years old when the Tourney of Harrenhal took place.  But I see your point.  Of course he might have offered her for Rhaegar at some point and been turned down by Aerys because the Starks weren't Valyrian enough for his taste.  Makes sense considering they aren't Valyrian at all.

 

 

BBM- We don't know that.