Wmarshal Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 Seriously, this not how religion works, a king can't take religious powers because he says so. Unless they are prepared for a whole of rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 Just because it is supposed to work that way doesn't mean it actually will. Once again, law in Westeros is whatever the person who wins the war says it is.No king can go against the word of gods, no matter how sword they have. Tyrion lost his rights, no king or queen with sanity will wage war on the dominant faith just to see this fool take over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 If the HS is dead, the Faith picks a new leader, if the FM is destroyed, he is still in charge of the faith and has say of matters involved with the gods and oaths. Yeah, that is why the GC went to an HS to pardon Aemon to make him king. Yeah, those who do not worship the Faith, to bad for Tyrion the West keep the Faith. The Faith is now in the hands of the sparrows, just killing them to make one asshole lord of a land that does not want him is jut going to cause a decade long revolt with the Faith again. And if the new leader is a puppet of someone friendly to Tyrion? Then voila, Tyrion has the Faith on his side. True enough that Tyrion will need to win the support of a critical mass of Westerlords to hold on to Casterly Rock long-term, but even as a kinslayer there are potential ways to do that. A well-chosen marriage, good strategic bribes, the fact that Tywin was feared rather than loved and fear doesn't survive death... all the stuff you've brought up are indeed obstacles that could potentially prevent Tyrion from becoming Lord of the Rock, but your sense of certainty that the obstacles are insurmountable is totally unwarranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Seriously, this not how religion works, a king can't take religious powers because he says so. Unless they are prepared for a whole of rebellion. There is a whole world of difference between negating the result of one trial by combat and trying to dismantle the Faith root and branch. Obviously trying to rip out the Faith ain't going to work. But plenty of people can and will overlook some breaches of principle if they decide it isn't worth fighting over. People shrugged off many years of puppet High Septons rubber stamping the king's politically motivated decisions before, why shouldn't they do so again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 And if the new leader is a puppet of someone friendly to Tyrion? Then voila, Tyrion has the Faith on his side. True enough that Tyrion will need to win the support of a critical mass of Westerlords to hold on to Casterly Rock long-term, but even as a kinslayer there are potential ways to do that. A well-chosen marriage, good strategic bribes, the fact that Tywin was feared rather than loved and fear doesn't survive death... all the stuff you've brought up are indeed obstacles that could potentially prevent Tyrion from becoming Lord of the Rock, but your sense of certainty that the obstacles are insurmountable is totally unwarranted.seeing how the sparrows have taken over the Faith, I don't see that happening. Making marauders is a dumb idea for any king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 No king can go against the word of gods, no matter how sword they have. Tyrion lost his rights, no king or queen with sanity will wage war on the dominant faith just to see this fool take over. A king can make the word of gods be what he wants it to be, by dominating or co-opting the Faith. There are plenty of ways that the High Septon might be persuaded to go along with it... threats, bribes, all kinds of stuff. Nothing is certain, but it's all possible. The High Sparrow is pretty principled, but he won't live forever and someone may decide to speed along his demise and then manipulate the new leader process to get their own puppet in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 Everything is possible till the end, but Tyrion has no rights as of this moment, he was judged and he lost. I still don't see why any lord would take such effort to give this man something lost in the most degusting way when they can easily give it to someone else with less war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Everything is possible till the end, but Tyrion has no rights as of this moment, he was judged and he lost. I still don't see why any lord would take such effort to give this man something lost in the most degusting way when they can easily give it to someone else with less war. At the moment, yes, he has no rights. But depending on his future help and services to future Kings/Queen, that can change. For instance, Cersei wanted to send Osney to the Wall and then, offer a Royal pardon for him to return. She was probably lying, of course, but who knows. Maybe if she had done otherwise, Osney would talk. Kings have all the power and if Aegon and Dany realises that Tyrion has served them right, they won't mind on giving him CR. Also, they aren't completely pro-lannisters. Let's say one of them wins at the end (arr... let's just keep it quiet to prove my point, k?) and they managed some peace and obedience a la Aegon the Conqueror, and people bend the knee. They can give the Westerlands to whoever they wanted to. And that might be Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Everything is possible till the end, but Tyrion has no rights as of this moment, he was judged and he lost. I still don't see why any lord would take such effort to give this man something lost in the most degusting way when they can easily give it to someone else with less war. Tyrion's situation is extremely bleak at the moment and he will need a lot of help to recover his birthright, but if he manages to gain a critical mass of support, preferably from a new occupant of the Iron Throne, others will fall into line. Some of the Westerlords may support his claim for the sake of getting rid of Cersei, whom we all know to be dangerously unstable and hopelessly incompetent as a ruler. Tyrion may be a dwarf and a kinslayer, but he is competent and doesn't go around alienating allies out of pointless petty spite. He is the only claimant to CR who is both interested in taking the lordship and has a claim which is superior to Cersei's under the conventional inheritance law of male-preference primogeniture, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Everything is possible till the end, but Tyrion has no rights as of this moment, he was judged and he lost. I still don't see why any lord would take such effort to give this man something lost in the most degusting way when they can easily give it to someone else with less war. I can think of a few of reasons. 1. The current HS is on a mission that seems to include taking down Cersei, and she wants Tyrion dead. If she somehow squeaks through and wins her trial, what better way to stick it to her than pardoning her brother or declaring him innocent? 2. Dragons. Do you really think the HS is going to say no to someone who has dragons? From the perspective of his religion he should consider the person having the dragons and winning the throne as one chosen by the gods to rule, and thus his/her word on the matter is what he would follow for spiritual as well as temporal reasons. 3. Why the effort? Well it would piss Cersei off. And if Tyrion provides valuable help to Aegon or Dany either would be happy to reward him. Also he killed the man responsible for the deaths of Elia and Rhaenys (if not Aegon) and married his daughter to the Usurper. Getting rid of Tywin alone might be enough for anyone named Targaryen to favor Tyrion. 4. Now that I think of it, what effort? You show up with dragons and tell the High Septon that the Usurper's wife lied and this man is innocent, he's going to agree. No effort needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquoring bastard25 Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 WMarshal did you just say that a king can't take the power of the faith in their hands? Are you serious? Have you ever heard of King Henry VIII? He started this little church called the Church of England. He made himself the Supreme Head of the Church of England. He stripped the power of the Pope(whom is the similar in power status of the High Septon) denounced his power and said that the King not the Pope had the powers of the spiritual in their hands, as they not the Pope was appointed to rule by divine right. It was because of Henry and his tangling with Rome(a break of faith/doctrine)from the top instead of the bottom. Before 1527, Henry was a devote catholic and even ordered Thomas More one of the best humanist of time to write a pamphlet defaming Martin Luther and his articles of faith. The Pope even granted Henry a holy title, as before this England was naked of holy titles next to their other Catholic brethren, The French the Most Devote Monarch, Holy Roman Emperor which was always a Hapsburg. So please come up with a different argument than that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winds of Winter blow cold Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Jon will give it to him in exchange for annulling his marriage to Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Rights or no rights, if he rides in on a dragon, he's not going to get much opposition. If Daenerys grants him Casterly Rock he'll have a claim through that regardless of what came before. Kinslaying is frowned upon and said to ensure being accursed but...is it actually illegal? Tyrion was deemed treasonous and all his worldly goods and claims were attainted based on the regicide charge, not based on having killed his father, IIRC.Well, it's murder, so yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Whatever influence the Faith has now it will be done by the time the Others are becoming a real menace in Westeros and they're proven to be a farce. There is a small little line in Feast, when Bonifer Hasty tells Jaime that according to the Seven Pointed Star, wights (and other scary things) can't hurt a pious man who is armed with his faith. By the time some Others and wights are going to start showing up from behind the Wall, the Faith will be send to defeat them, armed with their Faith against this supernatural event. And that will be hilarious to watch. So, the Faith's power might start to fade away after all. My two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuem Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Give him harrenhal after all he has done he couldn't get any unluckier ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquoring bastard25 Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 If I were Jon I would give Tyrion Casterly Rock to keep her married to the Imp. That's one less claimant to the throne and that's a western ally with all the gold in the world to help build a war chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 WMarshal did you just say that a king can't take the power of the faith in their hands?Are you serious? Have you ever heard of King Henry VIII? He started this little church called the Church of England. He made himself the Supreme Head of the Church of England.He stripped the power of the Pope(whom is the similar in power status of the High Septon) denounced his power and said that the King not the Pope had the powers of the spiritual in their hands, as they not the Pope was appointed to rule by divine right.It was because of Henry and his tangling with Rome(a break of faith/doctrine)from the top instead of the bottom.Before 1527, Henry was a devote catholic and even ordered Thomas More one of the best humanist of time to write a pamphlet defaming Martin Luther and his articles of faith. The Pope even granted Henry a holy title, as before this England was naked of holy titles next to their other Catholic brethren, The French the Most Devote Monarch, Holy Roman Emperor which was always a Hapsburg.So please come up with a different argument than that one.And seem in your great wisdom forget the rebellion Henry faced. HS isn't in some far away place like the Pope. He is in KL, with all his swords. The crown can't take his power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerArthurHeath Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 And seem in your great wisdom forget the rebellion Henry faced. HS isn't in some far away place like the Pope. He is in KL, with all his swords. The crown can't take his power.They did before but they had Dragons.Oh. Wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 Whatever influence the Faith has now it will be done by the time the Others are becoming a real menace in Westeros and they're proven to be a farce. There is a small little line in Feast, when Bonifer Hasty tells Jaime that according to the Seven Pointed Star, wights (and other scary things) can't hurt a pious man who is armed with his faith. By the time some Others and wights are going to start showing up from behind the Wall, the Faith will be send to defeat them, armed with their Faith against this supernatural event. And that will be hilarious to watch. So, the Faith's power might start to fade away after all. My two cents.Wait, because holy men fight and die killing Others, you believe the Faith would fall? That is not how it works, that is like a man burning a weirwood tree in the North, and because nothing happens to him, all Northmen would abandon the old gods, they wouldn't as shown in Dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 You mean the revolts which the Targs never put them down, and Maegor was stabbed to death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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