[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa IX: The birth of Alayne Stone

[Newstar]

I doubt they'd make Alayne legitimate, since Sansa's dislike of bastards is somewhat prominent to her character.

Her book character, maybe (although I wouldn't say that Book Sansa dislikes bastards, merely that she's conscious of social class differences). Her TV character has no strong feelings about bastards one way or the other, and her TV character seems less mindful of class distinctions given how quickly she befriended and how attached she was to her handmaiden, knowing that she had a sketchy background (although Book Sansa did befriend Ser Dontos despite his drop in status to that of a fool, and I suppose Book Sansa might have befriended one of her handmaidens if she felt she could trust any of them).

[jons nissa]

making sansa littlefinger's niece must be what aiden meant by avuncular :leer:

interesting developments. i do think that revealing jon arryn is not a huge problem but ti was very dramatic as it played out in the books. is the show planning something to replace all that?

i don't know if we're meant to notice the ring as much as some have. it hasn't been mentioned in any of the episode discussions, has it? what's more, i don't see it being ripped off by sansa any time soon but perhaps lysa might rip it off.

i wonder when we'll have the snow scene? probably 2 or 3 episodes later ending with lysa looking in? dun dun duuuuun.

the look sansa gives after lysa mentions the betrothal didn't look like intrigue to me but more what??!!!!!!

Man, don't even joke about that shizz.

A+ use of "hagiography."

It is a little over the top this season, though, especially when it comes to Tyrion and Sansa. In five episodes we've had the following:

4x01: Tyrion tries to comfort Sansa, tells Oberyn that he's sworn off whores now that he's married, refuses to go to bed with Shae (whereas Book Tyrion had no compunction when it came to bedding Shae and did nothing to comfort Sansa because he thought she wouldn't want comfort from a Lannister)

4x02: Tyrion/Sansa talking at the wedding ("We have a new queen"), Tyrion holds Sansa's hand, Sansa hands Tyrion the cup to help salvage his dignity (whereas Book Sansa is distant and unmoved by Tyrion's humiliation and Tyrion is self-pitying and bitter)

4x03: Tyrion takes the news that Sansa's gone surprisingly well, insists Sansa's not a killer (whereas Book Tyrion thought Sansa could have done it, if not alone).

4x04: Tyrion again insists that Sansa's no killer (...yet), Sansa immediately denies that Tyrion was responsible for Joffrey's murder with no logical basis except "just knowing" (whereas Book Tyrion and Book Sansa each believed the other capable of the murder)

4x05: Sansa earnestly insists that Tyrion didn't want to marry her and that he was made to marry her by the Lannisters just as she was made to marry him (whereas Book Sansa stated in response to the same question that she was made to marry him by "them," meaning the Lannisters including Tyrion, and she never wanted it)

In isolation, each change from ASOS is not really anything to write home about, but when piled on top of each other, my God.

i mentioned this in last week's thread, the list above coupled with the fact that the whole marriage started off on a very different note is painting a very different picture in the minds of the unsullied viewer, however some book readers seem to be having a really hard time with that reality.

[1234567]

i mentioned this in last week's thread, the list above coupled with the fact that the whole marriage started off on a very different note is painting a very different picture in the minds of the unsullied viewer, however some book readers seem to be having a really hard time with that reality.

Probably because it is now the exact opposite of what it was in the book. You are used to characters and seeing these 180 changes are jarring. I haven't seen the episode yet, but I do fear VoodooQueen is correct in her assessment.

However I am still hoping that it is just the writers messing up as they have so far altered various characters in ways that are beginning not to make sense: Jaime for example. They certainly like to make Sansa seem stupid, which in the books she is not.

[jons nissa]

Probably because it is now the exact opposite of what it was in the book. You are used to characters and seeing these 180 changes are jarring. I haven't seen the episode yet, but I do fear VoodooQueen is correct in her assessment.

However I am still hoping that it is just the writers messing up as they have so far altered various characters in ways that are beginning not to make sense: Jaime for example. They certainly like to make Sansa seem stupid, which in the books she is not.

yes, it is very different from the books. i've said that several times along with everyone else.

however, i don't believe she seemed stupid. in fact, she was much bolder and aggressive with littlefinger in last week's episode than she ever was in the books.

[Sun]

Alayne Baelish, surely.

[Annara Snow]

i mentioned this in last week's thread, the list above coupled with the fact that the whole marriage started off on a very different note is painting a very different picture in the minds of the unsullied viewer, however some book readers seem to be having a really hard time with that reality.

No, you said that the Unsullied think that the marriage wasn't forced, which is definitely not the reality for the majority of viewers or for the way it is shown in the show, and if some Unsullied actually think that Sansa wanted to marry Tyrion or had any choice in the matter, then, as I said, they are just not very smart.

Heck, even in this episode they had Sansa reiterate that it was a forced marriage just in case someone forgot/was too dumb to get it. The difference from the book is that they're doing everything to make Tyrion look as a total good guy, including making him much nicer to her and making it look as if he has no more choice in the matter than she did - and consequently making their relations friendlier... but it's still a marriage Sansa was forced to, even if they made her wedding night far less traumatic.

Anyway, there is certainly a big difference in the level of friendliness in their relationship, but 180 degrees it's not... they would have to hate each other in the book, or to be passionately in love in the show for that to be the case, so it's more like...45 degrees? 60? 75?

[The hairy bear]

In a weird bit, Lino Facioli's IMDb entry had him credited for episodes 7 and 10 for months now, which we all assumed was a management thing, but he turned out to be in this episode too, and that wasn't put up. Very weird.

IMDB is completely unreliable when reporting information from future episodes. Anyone can submit it, and they'll upload it without checking it. It's not reliable until the episode has aired.

Really: IMDB is never a valid source of information for upcoming GoT episodes.

I doubt they'd make Alayne legitimate, since Sansa's dislike of bastards is somewhat prominent to her character.

I don't recall show!Sansa ever showin any kind of "dislike" towards bastards. Having her be a Stone wouldn't mean much within the context of the show.

My guess is that they'll just never give a surname for Alayne, and her status won't be addressed at all.

[jons nissa]

No, you said that the Unsullied think that the marriage wasn't forced, which is definitely not the reality for the majority of viewers or for the way it is shown in the show, and if some Unsullied actually think that Sansa wanted to marry Tyrion or had any choice in the matter, then, as I said, they are just not very smart.

Heck, even in this episode they had Sansa reiterate that it was a forced marriage just in case someone forgot/was too dumb to get it. The difference from the book is that they're doing everything to make Tyrion look as a total good guy, including making him much nicer to her and making it look as if he has no more choice in the matter than she did - and consequently making their relations friendlier... but it's still a marriage Sansa was forced to, even if they made her wedding night far less traumatic.

Anyway, there is certainly a big difference in the level of friendliness in their relationship, but 180 degrees it's not... they would have to hate each other in the book, or to be passionately in love in the show for that to be the case, so it's more like...45 degrees? 60? 75?

yes i did say that and it was based on many unsullied posting she wasn't forced into it by tyrion. the show has gone out of it's way to show that. but thanks again for remembering my posts!

[Annara Snow]

IMDB is completely unreliable when reporting information from future episodes. Anyone can submit it, and they'll upload it without checking it. It's not reliable until the episode has aired.

Really: IMDB is never a valid source of information for upcoming GoT episodes.

I don't recall show!Sansa ever showin any kind of "dislike" towards bastards. Having her be a Stone wouldn't mean much within the context of the show.

My guess is that they'll just never give a surname for Alayne, and her status won't be addressed at all.

I don't remember Sansa showing any dislike for bastards in the book, either. She was just very conscious of class status and initially shocked she would have to pretend to be one.

She did show dislike for a commoner (Mycah) and Arya socializing with him in AGOT, but I think she ever said anything about bastards, other than always calling Jon their bastard half brother.

[Annara Snow]

yes i did say that and it was based on many unsullied posting she wasn't forced into it by tyrion. the show has gone out of it's way to show that. but thanks again for remembering my posts!

"Not forced by Tyrion" =/= "not forced". Which one were your Unsullied saying?

[Chebyshov]

These "St. Tyrion" posts are annoying me. They're clearly setting him up for a giant fall. If they end up not having him kill Shae like he does in the books, then I'll certainly join everyone else in admonishing the show-runners. But my god, it's getting tiresome to read.

As for how it pertains to Sansa, Tyrion didn't want the marriage either and Sansa knew that. And that's straight from the books.

He waddled closer. “You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce.

Her reiterating that to Lysa doesn't bother me.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

OMG she is a niece not a daughter.

This has ruined everything ever written. It spoils the Gandalf the White reveal. It spoils the I see dead people reveal. It spoils the Kaiser Soze reveal. It spoils the I am your father reveal. It's burned my dinner in the oven and my wife has left me with it.

Everything is ruined.

[Colonel Green]

I saw Sophie Turner's hair being dyed in one of the behind-the-scenes videos (possibly A Foreshadowing, although I can't guarantee) so I guess they'll have her hair dyed during her next appearance.

Turner never changed her hair at any point during filming.

[Red Tiger]

OMG she is a niece not a daughter.

This has ruined everything ever written. It spoils the Gandalf the White reveal. It spoils the I see dead people reveal. It spoils the Kaiser Soze reveal. It spoils the I am your father reveal. It's burned my dinner in the oven and my wife has left me with it.

Everything is ruined.

LMAO, I agree some people take this too hard.

[jons nissa]

"Not forced by Tyrion" =/= "not forced". Which one were your Unsullied saying?

they are hardly my unsullied. they were the group this site often discusses from TWoP and it was not forced by tyrion. the site no longer is active but is still accessible if you want to read the comments.

[Cas Stark]

It just makes me wonder if some of the book predictions for Sansa and Tyrion ending up together aren't as far fetched as I thought they were....if there is nothing more in store for them...why use up so much dialogue with Sansa showing how she doesn't have any hostile feelings toward him and sees him as a victim just like herself.

[juanml82]

Regarding the ring. It's a neon light with "married girl here!" written on it. But in-story, it's not a marriage ring - such a thing doesn't exist in Westeros. We don't even know if the character links it to Tyrion

[Annara Snow]

Turner never changed her hair at any point during filming.

She's naturally blonde and dyes her hair red for the role, wouldn't that be why she was seen dyeing her hair?

they are hardly my unsullied. they were the group this site often discusses from TWoP and it was not forced by tyrion. the site no longer is active but is still accessible if you want to read the comments.

I've never been a fan of that forum in general, so no. But you haven't answered my question.

I am not joking. Whilst I ultimately think Tyrion and Sansa are ultimately the end game, in the books, this will be portrayed as a tragedy: a beautiful girl must prostitute herself to a depraved, rapist with Greyscale/VD (book Tyrion without euphemisms), so that she can use Lannister gold to rebuild Winterfell, thus sacrificing her happiness for the good of Rickon and the Starks... to the show's "Look at the stupid, spoiled teenage girl who is rude to her Septa and licks her fingers, lucky she got rescued from Obviously!EVIL!Littlefinger by St Tyrion, whom she loves because he is so nice and funny, even though the Gold Mines under Casterly Rock are empty" Thus erasing the very scary female gaze for the benefit of male viewers, and teaching female viewers the lesson that they should love a man who is short, has scoliosis and arms too short to wipe his own backside and has a 50% chance of passing on those undesirable traits to their children, whilst being beautiful and thin, because fat women are just the worst.

So, I gather, you don't like Tyrion? ;)

I could list lots of Sansa-related reasons why I find this endgame unlikely - such as why I don't think that Sansa's arc so far points or hints to an outcome in which she end up prostituting/sacrificing herself for Winterfell; or that, even if she were to end that way, there are lots of other people she could prostitute herself to for much better political gains compared to what marrying a Lannister could get her; but what particularly strikes me about your doom scenario is that it is contingent on Tyrion ultimately playing the role of a immoral villain/twisted monster/sexually deviant demon monkey, much like the Richard III-like version of him from Phario Forel's play, or the popular image of him among people of Westeros. Now, book!Tyrion is not Saint Tyrion of the show, he's a very flawed man, but he's definitely not Twisted Demon Monkey Tyrion, even though this version seems popular among a portion of book fans on this forum. (As with Dany, who must be Evil Mad Queen if she's not the Perfect Messiah of Goodness, characters apparently must be black of white.) GRRM is subverting the "twisted monster" trope with Tyrion (and with other characters) - even when Tyrion, as a part of his descent into darkness in ADWD, starts thinking of himself and behaving similarly to what people always thought he was, I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to think "they were right, he is and was always an evil monster". And, well, I also don't think that an ending based on making the readers ponder "look at how awful, disgusting and vomit-inducing those men with dwarfism are" would be any more... enlightened than your sarcastic scenario about beautiful girls having to prostitute themselves and fat women being the worst.

Really, we've been there with Sansa and Tyrion, (not) done that, seen that scenario subverted in multiple ways; I don't see it being repeated and played straight the second time, in either one of those ways (Twisted Demon Monkey raping and abusing the beautiful tragic maiden, or spoiled girl Seeing the Light and realizing that her forced marriage was what she always needed because her husband is just so awesome and girls don't know what's good for them in the first place).

I will concede though that I don't think it's out of the question that Sansa and Tyrion may, due to circumstances, always remain married... officially. I just don't think they'll ever going to have sex or actually live like husband and wife. The ring may always stay there, but there'll be no bloody cloak, so to speak. I wouldn't be too surprised if, just like in the game we love to play in the Games forum, the people Sansa gets to fuck, marry and kill are all separate from each other. :)

[rpmaluki]

I think D&D might be playing their "in the know" card when it comes to some of the Tyrion/Sansa scenes. I personally don't see them as a complete 180 from the books but a 'softening' and I realise that it's something that is not universally liked on this site.

[Annara Snow]

It just makes me wonder if some of the book predictions for Sansa and Tyrion ending up together aren't as far fetched as I thought they were....if there is nothing more in store for them...why use up so much dialogue with Sansa showing how she doesn't have any hostile feelings toward him and sees him as a victim just like herself.

1. (Definitely) Because they really, really want the audience to think that Tyrion is a total Good Guy and really, really didn't force that 14-year old girl to marry him, so what better way to do that than have her reiterate once more that he's a a total good guy?

2. (Definitely) Because they try to minimize all conflict between the "good guys", and they want the audience to like Sansa now, and some portions of the audience would hate her just for disliking their favorite character, the cool and funny Tyrion (it happens with lots of book readers.. just look at all those "why was Sansa such a bitch to Tyrion" threads that pop up once in a while)

3. (Possibly) Because Sansa and Tyrion may end up having friendly relations (a political alliance, for instance) in the far future, and they think they need to set it up because the audience would otherwise think that they hate each other if we don't get their internal thoughts (and obviously, as far as the show goes, you are either BFFs or hate each other's guts... subtlety isn't the show's strong suit).

I think D&D might be playing their "in the know" card when it comes to some of the Tyrion/Sansa scenes. I personally don't see them as a complete 180 from the books but a 'softening' and I realise that it's something that is not universally liked on this site.

You mean, like they did with the Tyrion/Sansa scenes in season 3?... Except that, as we know, they only had that talk with GRRM after season 3 had already been shot.

The way they're writing Sansa/Tyrion scenes in season 4 is a natural continuation of how they were writing them in season 3. Am I the only one who doesn't get why people are acting as if there's some huge turnaround now that needs to be explained?