Septa Lemore is not Ashara Dayne

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This thread kinda started like a cynical answer to another thread and after some PMs about the subject, I simply expanded it and made it more serious. Anyway...

My point is that sometimes a mistake we commit as readers is to mix what we want to happen with what is going to happen. And I think that's a bit the case with Ashara Dayne being alive and being Septa Lemore (or anyone else), due to evidence that is actually rather forced into it instead of actually being proof of anything.

I wasn't active in this board before Dance, but I've read that it was expected for Aegon to manifest in some form, either real or fake (let's not discuss that now) due to Dany's visions in ACOK. Also, when a new character is introduced and in this case, Aegon being kinda important, he also comes with a bunch of new characters that not necessarily are all important. Jon Connington and Lemore, for example.

I searched the threads for some keywords like JC, Aegon and Griff in threads before the date of publication of Dance and I found that, when the first Tyrion chapter was released (2008) it was pretty much obvious that "Griff" was Jon Connington and "Young Griff" was meant to be "Aegon". Some things suggested were:

- Connington had a son (with Ashara, always Ashara!), Young Griff, and he was going to pass him as Aegon
- Connington found out some kid and he was trying to pass him as Aegon.
- Connington escaped with the real Aegon. Couple of people said that Connington switched baby Aegon. Congrats to those, whoever they are! They were VERY close.

While none of these are completely true, there is about 90% of accuracy in the events due to one simple fact: Connington wasn't the plot twist here, and I would even say that not even Aegon was. The twist was that Varys was behind him being alive all along (Again, let's not discuss Aegon's being real or not). JC being not the twist allows GRRM to not showing much mystery about him but directly show us the man that believes Aegon is who Varys claims to be. His "importance" is that he's our eyes and ears once Tyrion is away. A pm I received showed me how a thread/post wanted to imply the future importance of Lady Dustin in the general plot (or something like that) while this person and myself thought that there is no development of Dustin before her appearance for her to be actually a mayor player: there is not mention of her at all up until Dance, while Connington, a relatively minor character, is heavily mentioned in books before Dance and doesn't appear out of thin air. GRRM doesn't work that way, apparently.

So, I'll go backwards about his story, so we can see how elements of what we know now in Dance, are presented previously.

First, what we found out about him in Dance?

(1) He loved Rhaegar and people thought they were friends (whether romantically or only as a friendship, doesn't matter)
(2) He was the Lord of Griffin's Roost, a House from the Stormlands, after his father died.
(3) He was proud of his father's lands.
(4) He was Aerys' Hand during the Robelion although he was too young and inexperienced
(5) He lost the Battle of the Bells, which indirectly, caused Robert to kill Rhaegar because he escaped.
(6) He was exiled by Aerys
(7) and stripped from his lands
(8) He became a high ranked warrior among the Golden Company, and probably, could have been the next commander. This meant he can fight and know battles.
(9) In Westeros, people thought he drank himself to death.

later, in books we have:

aGoT
There is no mention of him, not his family. Either the character didn't exist yet or there was no need to introduce him that early. No sign of Aegon, either, except that he was killed by Gregor.

aCoK

JC is not mentioned by name, neither are the Conningtons. Only, Red Ronnet, Knight of Griffin's Roost being in Renly's camp as a man from the Stormlands (2) and later, as a war prisoner when he switches to Stannis. He's defeated by Brienne (this is later important for #3 and #7) and we know his sigil is a Griffin (it's on his shield)

aSoS

There are few mentions of Jon Connington as "lord Connington", except once when he's called fully "Lord Jon Connington". There is no way for us readers to know that those two Con are the same at first.

-Barristan says LC was close to Rhaegar (1), although Arthur was his best friend.
-Arya is told that Robert Baratheon was hurt in Stoney Sept by LC, hand of the King (4), Battle that Robert said Ned won (5). About LC, was said that he fought well and hurt Hoster Tully and killed Denys Arryn, among other men (8).
-Jaime remembers that there was a Hand Griffin (4), exiled (6) besides the Hand Merrywheater and the Hands were quickly and easily replaced. We don't know why until Jaime tells later Brienne the story of the BotB, and he mentioned that the griffin was exiled by Aerys (6) due to the BotB being lost (5). He doesn't says his name nor his House Name, but we already know it's the same griffin who was as Hand in Arya's chapter, Lord Connington, because there he's called Hand. He also says that this was the Battle that convinced Aerys that the situation was really bad (5).
-Jaime reads the full name, JC, and his title in the White Book, in Barristan's entry. So, we're meant to believe all the "Lord Conningtons" mentioned are Jon, I guess.

-Finally, the Tourney at Harrenhall. Ashara Dayne is meant to dance with "a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf". That griffin, I think, it's meant to be JC. I'll get to that later.

So, to summarize Jon in Storm: He was already a Lord (2), friend of Rhaegar(1), named Hand by Aerys at a probably young age (4) but he didn't last long. Fought the Battle of the Bells and lost (5) although he fought well (8). Got exiled due to that (6). The Conningtons's sigil was a griffin. That's 5/9.

*Here Ronnet finally appears as a Connington, in the apendix, but there is no real way to know if they're close relatives yet. Also, there is mention of some other Connington in the White book, who isn't even important. Either way, the whole book mentions A LOT the relationship between griffins and Conningtons, enough for readers to guess accurately that Griff and YG were Connington and a young man under his care

aFfC

We have a lot of info about Ronnet and Jon here, and Ronnet's encounter with Jaime gives some hints about #3 and #7. In clash we knew that Brienne defeated Ronnet and here we know he's an asshole to Brienne because his father wanted him to marry her for some very specific reason, related to Jon's falling from grace: the Conningtons now don't have much lands. When Jaime meets Ronnet in Harrenhall, seeing his sigil realises he is related to Jon Connington, who he referes to as "dead" (9). The whole story about him, according to Jaime is everything we've been told already in the previous book and add few more details that are later confirmed and are important for his motivations besides his love for Rhaegar. His lands and gold were taken away from him (7) and he was exiled across the Sea (6). There, he drank himself to dead (8). Robert then distributed his lands among his followers while Ronnet's father got nothing but the castle. Jon had no more family besides his father's cousin, apparently. (OT but while investigating, I found a SSM about Jon: "Nor was Robert willing to recall Lord Jon from exile, since he had been among Prince Rhaegar's closest friends". In the Arianne Chapter (WOW), we know Jon didn't like Robert that much. If Daeron sand knew, probably he wasn't the only one. Maybe that's why Robert took everything away from him and distributed his lands among his friend. ¡Bastardo! Now I hate him even more).

By the time he's introduced in Dance we have his full story and motivations. We had other's version of what happened to him and now we have his own version of the story and what he plans to do next. He can act as a character because we know already what we're meant to know about him and how he got there. That doesn't happen at all with Ashara Dayne for her to be alive and reveal something important later. Again, that's not how GRRM works and her being Lemore makes little sense, unless he's planning something completely unexpected and pointless and I think we don't have much time for that.

It's hard to prove something based in not having evidence, but let's see what we know about Ashara, despite being gorgeous, sister of Arthur and blah:

- Cat and Cersei think she might be Jon's mother.

- Edric Dayne and his family think she killed herself due to Ned.

- Harwin has heard that Ned and Ashara had "a thing" during the Tourney.

First, everything that is mentioned about Ashara is related to the Starks, while everything we know about Connington is related to the Targaryens. I think that says a lot.

Second, notice the difference between her death and Jon's "death": Here, Varys needed him to remain undercover, so, he makes up a dishonouring and simple credible death for people to not ask questions about him: he drank himself to death. And when Connington returns, he can say easily "nope, you all think I died, but I didn't and I'm real". Ashara, otoh, died in a way that has made people keep talking about it, something Varys said he doesn't need. She died in her own castle, and probably with witnesses who we know later try to find her body. What is she going to say now she's "back"? "That wasn't me, I pushed some girl so you think I died"?.

There is the story of they both (probably) dancing in Harrenhall, and that makes people think that they know each other. Personally, I think that disproves even more the fact that Ashara is Lemore. Not only Connington says that he has "grew fond" of Lemore but he doesn't think about her as Ashara once. Ned's thoughts about "the promise" weren't specific but they hinted something. There is nothing about Jon's thoughts that could hint he knew Lemore before. Jon's thoughts, unlike Ned, hide nothing, not even the fact that he's not shy about killing the Usurper's line (his children) or killing Varys in retribution of the humiliation he has asked him to live through.

IF -and I'm being generous with the IF- Ashara is alive and she's Lemore, she has no real motivation nor reason to be there with Aegon or anywhere, really. She's not his mother only because she has stretch marks. She's with Jon, a man who could easily recognise her and he doesn't even think about her as Ashara. Lemore might be someone, probably, but not Ashara. Ashara's story is related to Ned Stark, and having her with Aegon would be pointless and unnecessary for Varys. I'd even say that it's dangerous to have her close to Aegon if he's fake or his mother. She's not important enough to be revealed as a mayor plot later either, and taking Connington as an example, we would have found out already if she was: we're only two books left to worry about minor characters being suddenly revealed.

That's my two (well, more than two) cents while I'm back to my planet a few days and keep myself busy with real life. Enjoy and discuss.

[Ygrain]

Congrats on the thorough work once again :-)

Just, a little correction: Harwin doesn't think that Ned and Ashara were an item - he repeats the rumour but doesn't give it much credit.

[Mithras]

Good work. I agree that if Ashara is to resurface, she might be the wife of Howland Reed. She can't have anything to do with fAegon. Ashara's "death" is a common motiff in some songs. Not like the death Varys designed for JonCon.

It is obviously stated that Lemore is hiding her real identity and even changed her outfit (from a septa to a merchant's wife) at Volantis. Among the possible candidates who might be related to fAegon, I can say Wenda White Fawn, fAegon's mother (Serra) or Mellario of Norvos (Arianne's mother).

By the way, I don't agree with you about Lady Dustin. She is tied to many arcs in the North. Of course she is not a primary character but she will appear more in WoW.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

By the way, I don't agree with you about Lady Dustin. She is tied to many arcs in the North. Of course she is not a primary character but she will appear more in WoW.

Agree. She might be related to the North, indeed, but that's all. I doubt she might have more relevance than that.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

The rumor is that Ned and Ashara had a romantic inclination towards one another, but I don't recall it being specifically tied to Harrenhal. It's unlikely that the dishonoring which occurred there was done by Ned. But he still could have had feelings for her, and she for him.

I fully agree that Lemore is not Ashara but I disagree that her being alive would be pointless. If GRRM includes it, it won't be pointless. That is not the way he writes. There may or may not be a reason no one ever found her body, but just because her death was talked about doesn't mean she's dead. We don't know that anyone saw her jump into the sea. We also don't know that if she did jump it had to be fatal. She hasn't been seen since and is probably dead, but it's possible that she's not.

Anyway, aside from the fact that it's Edric Dayne, not Eddard Dayne, great job putting this together. It's quite good.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Anyway, aside from the fact that it's Edric Dayne, not Eddard Dayne, great job putting this together. It's quite good.

Fixed (hey, it was 3am!). And thanks ^^

Yeah, she might have a point, somewhere, maybe, but what I meant is that we're a bit late for introductions. Ashara is a character that might have a few fans but she's not important enough to devote her one of the big final solving mysteries of the books. I really don't think there is a big mystery surrounding who Lemore is, as much, "some lady" or maybe Aegon's mother, and if she's Aegon's real mother, then the whole plot is about HIM not her. But that's it: we will know her identity and that's all.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Bless you! I am so sick and tired of this Lemara nonsense. It is just a bad fanfic without any reason. However ma’am you make sense and that is very unique in this “theory”.

[Jarocal]

Fixed (hey, it was 3am!). And thanks ^^

Yeah, she might have a point, somewhere, maybe, but what I meant is that we're a bit late for introductions. Ashara is a character that might have a few fans but she's not important enough to devote her one of the big final solving mysteries of the books. I really don't think there is a big mystery surrounding who Lemore is, as much, "some lady" or maybe Aegon's mother, and if she's Aegon's real mother, then the whole plot is about HIM not her. But that's it: we will know her identity and that's all.

Since everyone else throws out crackpot theories I'll toss one in...

Lemore is Ashara and fAegon is actually her child with Ned. Ned took R+L=J home at Lyanna's insistence and claimed that child as the bastard he had (with Ashara and he thought perished in infancy). While hating Magic, Varys recognized the offspring of the otherwise honorable Ned and Ashara as TPWP. He spirited them away and later had JonCon act as their protector lying to him by saying the child was actually Aegon. Believing the bastard offsring of Ned to be TPTWP/AAR he has conspired to destabilize the realm and put the kid on the throne in due time in order to protect the realm from the others.

OKay, with the crackpottery out of the way I would like to concur with you and congratulate you for your well reasoned post.

[bent branch]

Fixed (hey, it was 3am!). And thanks ^^

Yeah, she might have a point, somewhere, maybe, but what I meant is that we're a bit late for introductions. Ashara is a character that might have a few fans but she's not important enough to devote her one of the big final solving mysteries of the books. I really don't think there is a big mystery surrounding who Lemore is, as much, "some lady" or maybe Aegon's mother, and if she's Aegon's real mother, then the whole plot is about HIM not her. But that's it: we will know her identity and that's all.

So, do you think this is the reason for the long wait between books? Do you think GRRM writes the story and then waits to see how many fans a character gets to judge if they are suitable for solving the mysteries of the books?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So, do you think this is the reason for the long wait between books? Do you think GRRM writes the story and then waits to see how many fans a character gets to judge if they are suitable for solving the mysteries of the books?

Is that what you understood?

GRRM can do anything he likes, but while he's flawed he's good at foreshadowing and subtle clues. There are some things that might be a surprise, yes. Some others will be expected. But at least Lemore being Ashara has absolutely no base nor foundation to happen. There is not even ONE single clue that links the both of them being the same person.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I agree I've always thought Lemore is just Lemore.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

This again. sigh I'm not going to argue this, you non beleivers can have this thread as a haven. All the evidence in the world won't convince you otherwise.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Congrats on the thorough work once again :-)

Just, a little correction: Harwin doesn't think that Ned and Ashara were an item - he repeats the rumour but doesn't give it much credit.

Fixed. Thanks ^^

[Ygrain]

This again. sigh I'm not going to argue this, you non beleivers can have this thread as a haven. All the evidence in the world won't convince you otherwise.

Why not? This is a proper analysis of writing technique, no wishful thinking. Add to it the lack of any mention of Lemore's eyes, which would be a pretty crude way to conceal that they are purple and it's not what we have seen GRRM do several times, and there is indeed at least reasonable doubt for this theory. I don't think that it busts the whole A=L, but it is definitely something to ponder.

[Mithras]

Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her.

Lemore had changed out of her septa’s robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I’d judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. “What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa’s robes, Lemore.”

“I preferred her naked,” said Tyrion.

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. “That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa’s robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us.” She turned back to Prince Aegon. “You are not the only one who must needs hide.”

Lemore is not just Lemore. Why did she change her clothes in Selhorys? Why can’t Tyrion sniff out the truth beneath her septa robes?

[Good Guy Garlan]

Great work. And I know it's been said ad nausem but I'll say it anyway: Lemore's eyes are not purple. She's not even trying to hide that with blue hair like Aegon. And Tyrion, a known horndog, describes her as "handsome" which is a far cry from the way Ashara was described by pretty much everyone else in the story as being drop dead gorgeous.

That said, I agree with Paper Waver above, Martin does seem to imply she's more than she appears.

[Ygrain]

The rumor is that Ned and Ashara had a romantic inclination towards one another, but I don't recall it being specifically tied to Harrenhal. It's unlikely that the dishonoring which occurred there was done by Ned. But he still could have had feelings for her, and she for him.

“Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It’s an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now.” He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. “I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”

That said, I agree with Paper Waver above, Martin does seem to imply she's more than she appears.

He doesn't just imply, he basically says straight away that she has a hidden identity. It just doesn't mean that she must be Ashara.

[chrisdaw]

Yes she is, threw herself off a tower, please as if that wasn't coming back. GRRM isn't even really trying to hide it, all he's done is stop short of confirming it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You actually brought up a point that I've actually never seen either side acknowledge: Connington knew Ashara and had danced with her. If she were Lemore, he'd recognize her in his POV or think of her in those terms. It's such a "no shit" thing once you think of it (not a knock on you at all; if anything it should've been brought up long before now).

I've always been skeptical of the Lemore-Ashara theory (for various reasons, namely a lack of mention of the purple eyes and the obvious age discrepancy). But that point about Jon knowing Ashara and not connecting her in any way with Lemore pretty much seals it, or at least it should.

By favorite Lemore crackpot is that it's Mellario of Norvos, Doran's wife, and that their "estrangement" is a cover story for her undercover assignment (her being one of the few people he would trust absolutely), meaning Doran is in way deeper than he's let on up to this point.

Whoever she is, I do agree that she's not just a septa. She's "someone." But it's not Ashara.

Yes she is, threw herself off a tower, please as if that wasn't coming back. GRRM isn't even really trying to hide it, all he's done is stop short of confirming it.

That just suggests that Ashara could be alive out there somewhere, which few people would dispute as a possibility. It doesn't have to mean she's Lemore.

[Starspear]

If GRRM means to hide her identity, he wouldn't have Jon Con remind himself that Lemore is Ashara. He can be more subtle, like for instance, calling a Septa - Lady.