[Book Spoilers] Forel vs. Trant debate

[Petyr Patter]

It is pretty well established trope in fiction Never Found the Body means the character is probably still alive. Even in cases where "nobody could have survived that."

Martin heavily implied death. He has yet to confirm death, even when Arya's escape is discussed. Martin has know what that means in "fiction." Writers have been teasing death for protagonists and absentee family members for time immemorial. A simple line from Trant saying he killed a former first sword of Braavos would have sufficed. We have nothing.

I get that all signs point to death, but simultaneously, I can't help but think Syrio survived the encounter, because Martin has never confirmed death.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ser Meryn Trant has proven to be the best Kingsguard since The White Bull. Never balks at doing the royal families bidding, keeps all their secrets with staunch loyalty and is adept at harming unarmed people with maximum impact.

He's the best KG ever because when Joffrey was dying, he was just there, watching.

[WinterisAlwaysComing]

Like we always know from the books, if you hear people talking about a death, but don't see a corpse, that person is always dead.

It's fun to speculate. Trant in the books says something about almost grabbing "the Stark girl, until the dancing master interfered." Ambiguous.

Footnote:

In fantasy, I can only think of one "we didn't see a death, but there really WAS a death." From The Wheel of Time - Sammael's death confirmed by the author.

[GallowsKnight]

Trant killed Syrio. Despite being a master swordsman, Syrio had no way to harm Trant in head to toe plate armour armour. As the hound points out "Trant had armour and a big sword". It's evidence of how dangerous even an average knight is.

Trant isn't a terrible knight either. Like Boros Blount. He manages to beat Harwin of Ned's guard in the jousting.

[Koi No Yokan]

I'll remain blissfully ignorant that he is still out there somewhere, just like Benjen and Weasel.

[Gurthnar]

Two points:

• The "first sword of Braavos doesn't run" conundrum is easily resolved: Syrio isn't the first sword anymore - just a moment before the Lannister guards appears he teaches Arya by calling "left" and striking "right".

The Hound scornfully dismisses Trant as a lousy fighter - this info is new: so far in the books we haven't seen anyone show this kind of contempt for Trant... Jaime displayed some contempt but not like this.

Again, I defend the point I always had: Syrio's fate was left unresolved purposefully.

I think it is in Hound's nature to dismiss anyone as a lousy fighter. At least anyone, whom he deems worse than himself.

[The hairy bear]

Syrio's fate was left unresolved because of the POV structure. George couldn't have Arya watching how he died and at the same time escape from Trant.

The best Martin could do to depict that Syrio was making a last stand was showing his situation as dire as possible. And he did: four men in armor are approaching him, and is wodden sword is already broken. It's obvious that George clearly intends to imply that Syrio is going to die.

[Annara Snow]

It is pretty well established trope in fiction Never Found the Body means the character is probably still alive. Even in cases where "nobody could have survived that."

Martin heavily implied death. He has yet to confirm death, even when Arya's escape is discussed. Martin has know what that means in "fiction." Writers have been teasing death for protagonists and absentee family members for time immemorial. A simple line from Trant saying he killed a former first sword of Braavos would have sufficed. We have nothing.

This is generally true. However, Syrio is not a protagonist, major supporting character or family member. He is a very minor character, which is why GRRM probably never gave it much thought.

Also, what hairy bear said.

[idler]

I think it depends on the status of a "First Sword of Braavos", as the exact title is. We didn't know that until 4x03 when Davos started to read the biography of Elyo Grivas. Syrio Forel introduced himself as First Sword to the Sealord of Braavos to Arya in 1x03, but in 1x08, he got the title right: The First Sword of Braavos does not run!

We know the Sealord is chosen for life and names a First Sword as he pleases. The present Sealord, Ferrego Antaryon, is "sickly and failing" for ages, and his First Sword Quarro Volentin runs business. That might well have been the same Sealord with a yellow cat on his lap that once hired Syrio Forel. So the "First Sword of Braavos" is not a mere bodyguard, but has actually responsibilities like a "Hand of the King". That's why there is a biography of Elyo Grivas.

So it brings Ser Meryn Trant into a dilemma, when Syrio Forel says "The First Sword of Braavos does not run!" (He even "forgets" to mention he's retired!). We may assume Cersei told him to seize Arya Stark - who is gone now anyway - and not to try and kill a high-ranking foreign politician and risk a war with a first-rate power like Braavos. Cersei might like to see his head on a spike right next to the Stark household.

So if he can take a breath and think it over, he will apologize. And Cersei will put the "Dancing Master" on the next ship to Braavos. As they well might have done, considering Syrio's head is not spiked with the rest of the Stark household. :dunno:

Edited for typo.

[Duron Qel-Droma]

So if he can take a breath and think it over, he will apologize. And Cersei will put the "Dancing Master" on the next ship to Braavos. As they well might have done, considering Syrio's head is not spiked with the rest of the Stark household. :dunno:

But wasn't it Sansa seeing the spiked heads of the Stark household? And iIrc she doesn't ever know Syrio, so wouldn't have noted his face. But there also was no mention of her, seeing a head, which former owner she doesn't know...

[Ankou]

I don't think that was intentional though. I think George just didn't realize at first what would happen every time he fails to include an explicit detail in the text about a character's fate. If someone disappears and is presumed dead, but no body is ever found, then not only will they still be alive, they will also turn out to be every other character in disguise at some point in the story. Now that the Syrio theories have exploded, it's easy to make toy with them now in retrospect.

Except for the fact he does this exact thing, he even brings back characters who were clearly dead. Nobody to blame but himself, the fans are just using what he gives them,

[Colonel Green]

So it brings Ser Meryn Trant into a dilemma, when Syrio Forel says "The First Sword of Braavos does not run!" (He even "forgets" to mention he's retired!). We may assume Cersei told him to seize Arya Stark - who is gone now anyway - and not to try and kill a high-ranking foreign politician and risk a war with a first-rate power like Braavos.

Why would Trant believe that a high-ranking foreign politician has been living in King's Landing unbeknownst to anyone and giving fencing lessons?

Moreover, at that point he's already (in the books) killed several Lannister guards; they aren't going to keep him alive after that.

[Pod The Impaler]

So, the show added another tidbit of fan service: The good old Syrio Forel vs. Meryn Trant debate! I was surprised to see that they kept it for quite some screen time and threw most arguments seen in forums until now!

What do you guys think? Personally this just confirms my own theory on the this matter: Syrio Forel unfinished demise was particularly devised by GRRM as a provocation to readers. :rolleyes:

Any thoughts or comments?

I think it is exactly as you say - fan service, with a side of trolling.

One "side" says he was the greatest swordsman, blah blah blah and believes he's alive, the other"side" that with no good weapon and no heavy armour blah blah blah he's dead.

In the end, the question is still not actually resolved of whether Syrio died (only that Meryn Trant is still alive).

[Envie]

I think D&D put the bit in there about Syrio between Arya and The Hound just to work up fans on forums just like this one. ;)

They're book fans too - they probably had a whole bucket list of minor characters they wanted to know what happened to while writing the show (Gendry, Coldhands, Patchface, etc etc) and from that bucket list they decided which characters would be important to cast each season and which ones would be dropped or never added because they did not advance the story in some important way.

Adding back in a line or two from Arya about Syrio doesn't mean he's still alive. It's just tying back in Arya's 'water dancing' routine so that when the Hound laughs at her and knocks her on her butt, the point is hit home, she's no warrior with that fighting style and better find another way to survive and kill her 'hit list' - which as we all know, is coming with her decision to go to Braavos. Television show only viewers have no idea what Arya's going to do and thus they wrote in some material to help tie it all together in the near future.

[Pod The Impaler]

It's just tying back in Arya's 'water dancing' routine so that when the Hound laughs at her and knocks her on her butt, the point is hit home, she's no warrior with that fighting style and better find another way to survive and kill her 'hit list'

To be fair, the style a girl was demonstrating goes better with stabbing people where their armour is not.

A girl has forgotten some of her lessons. :fencing:

[trgryn-strk-lnstr-mrtell]

I think it is in Hound's nature to dismiss anyone as a lousy fighter. At least anyone, whom he deems worse than himself.

Except for the fact he does this exact thing, he even brings back characters who were clearly dead. Nobody to blame but himself, the fans are just using what he gives them,

^^ :agree: with both...hound is dismissive of EVERYONE, his opinion on people is not to be seriously considered...stupid guy accused Ned Stark of enjoying killing too! :tantrum:

im convinced that GRRM introduced LHS just to mess with everyone and consider the possibility of "who else can come back"

[Envie]

To be fair, the style a girl was demonstrating goes better with stabbing people where their armour is not.

A girl has forgotten some of her lessons. :fencing:

It did occur to me Sandor's armor looked more like studded boiled leather armor and not plate - in which case one would think Needle could pierce it ... but I tried not to over analyze the scene too much. We can't really try to scientifically explain everything in a very fantasy oriented show. ;)

[JonBranRickon]

The whole argument about the wooden sword has been taken as an absulote when it should be looked at as the weapon he started the fight with. Syrio killed several men and I'm sure he was smart enough to pick up a real sword if he need to. Also, if he is a FM like so many people believe than he would have had several other ways to kill and survive.

Furthermore, Ser Meryn is notorious for not behaving like a knight, he most likely ran after the odds were evened up.

I believe GRRM loves to make us think things as beiing much more complicated and eloborate than they appear but when you look at these two characters it seems pretty simple.

[Colonel Green]

and I'm sure if he wanted to live, he was smart enough to pick up a real sword.

He would have to stop in the middle of the fight and stoop, at which point he would be killed. Look at the way the show staged it.

Also, if he is a FM like so many people believe

Based on nothing whatsoever. Syrio being a Faceless Man is totally contrary to the spirit of his character.

[boojam]

Any thoughts or comments?

Poor ol Ian Beattie (Trant) he's been a second stringer with a speaking role in all 4 seasons, and I guess will be there next season. That's kind of a record!

I don't think I have ever seen an interview with him, he seems due one!

Meryn Trant has been in all five novels, and besides Jamie maybe the only surviving Kings Guard from, I don't know on the show we never really meet them all.

It's not surprising that Sandor has little respect for anyone's abilities , even his brother.

Still odd to bring it up on the show as they did.

I hard to think that Robert would have appointed Trant if he was worthless as a warrior.

As for ambiguity , I was sure the Hound had bit the biscuit, tho I have noticed , in the novels, when GRRm does not have a character die 'on-screen' there is always the thought of "I wonder what the hell happen to character?"