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Stannis, Renly and kinslaying.


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#1 hollowcrown

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:47 PM

How many of you honestly believe the Stannis/Renly situation would've counted as kinslaying?

 

This goes either way....Stannis being slain by Renly's army, and obviously Renly's assassination. I really don't think it's kinslaying since it's being committed by a third party, either one of Renly's soldiers, or Stannis's dark assassin. Since neither of them were willing to negotiate or compromise it came to that, and it's not kinslaying either way.

 

You could even parallel it to Cersei trying to get Tyrion killed on the Blackwater by the Kingsguard...no one ever brings that up as kinslaying that much.

 

There's plenty of real life examples of "kinslaying" such as Elizabath I who had her half-sister Mary executed (so I recall), so it's not like it's an unprecedented thing to do.



#2 The Bittersteel

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:51 PM

People often make that mistake. Elizabeth actually had her first cousin once removed Mary queen of scots executed not her sister and predecessor Mary I of England. Honestly while I think whether he was justified is a grey area that fact that he killed him is undeniable. This is kinslaying



#3 hollowcrown

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:53 PM

People often make that mistake. Elizabeth actually had her first cousin once removed Mary queen of scots executed not her sister and predecessor Mary I of England. Honestly while I think whether he was justified is a grey area that fact that he killed him is undeniable. This is kinslaying

 

If Stannis died in the battle, would Renly have been a kinslayer?

 

I think personally because Stannis did not strike the blow himself, in fact it was Melisandre's doing, it doesn't entirely count as kinslaying.



#4 Mourneblade

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:54 PM

People often make that mistake. Elizabeth actually had her first cousin once removed Mary queen of scots executed not her sister and predecessor Mary I of England. Honestly while I think whether he was justified is a grey area that fact that he killed him is undeniable. This is kinslaying

 

I made that mistake, but it is still kinslaying as Bittersteel suggests.

 

whether it is justified or not is the real question. History forgives Elizabeth because of how she ruled, and the England she left was much better than the England she inherited.



#5 lifefullofwords

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:56 PM

I think it's kinslaying since Stannis was complicit in the act. I don't buy the theory about him not comprehending what Mel was going to do, he's a bright guy. I can see why other people don't see Stannis as a kinslayer though, I do think there is room for debate on this particular issue.

 

There's plenty of real life examples of "kinslaying" such as Elizabath I who had her half-sister Mary executed (so I recall), so it's not like it's an unprecedented thing to do.

 

I think it's clear that the kinslaying taboo only extends to immediate family members. People are constantly killing cousins and such in Westeros, and that was what Mary was to Elizabeth. Plus that example is from our world anyway and not necessarily directly relevant to the books.

 

ETA: I think the primary reason Cersei gets less shit for kinslaying than Stannis is her attempt on Tyrion's life wasn't successful. Also, we expect Cersei to be evil but Stannis sees himself as a good man.


Edited by lifefullofwords, 06 May 2014 - 02:59 PM.


#6 The Bittersteel

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:57 PM

 

If Stannis died in the battle, would Renly have been a kinslayer?

 

I think personally because Stannis did not strike the blow himself, in fact it was Melisandre's doing, it doesn't entirely count as kinslaying.

 

This is an often repeated idea put falls apart when you look at it closely. If he'd used poison he isn't striking the blow himself would that make it not kinslaying? When Tyrion shot Tywin he didn't strike the blow himself is that not kinslaying? Ultimately I believe if you are responsible for the act you are guilty of the crime, you don't necessarily have to be the one to strike the blow personally.

 

Edit: If Euron had paid a faceless man...


Edited by The Bittersteel, 06 May 2014 - 03:00 PM.


#7 Mourneblade

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:01 PM

I think it's kinslaying since Stannis was complicit in the act. I don't buy the theory about him not comprehending what Mel was going to do, he's a bright guy. I can see why other people don't see Stannis as a kinslayer though, I do think there is room for debate on this particular issue.

 

 

I think it's clear that the kinslaying taboo only extends to immediate family members. People are constantly killing cousins and such in Westeros, and that was what Mary was to Elizabeth. Plus that example is from our world anyway and not necessarily directly relevant to the books.

 

 

I agree with this also.

 

We also do not know if there is some kind of Monkey's paw like curse on Kinslayers and Guest rights, or if that is a superstitious self fulfilling prophesy.



#8 Ralph Targaryen

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:08 PM

Is executing a traitor kinslaying? If the gods have any sense, I'm sure they've forgiven Stannis. Renly was, after all, the younger brother, and it was his duty, according to their laws, to bow down to his elder brother.



#9 lifefullofwords

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:09 PM

We also do not know if there is some kind of Monkey's paw like curse on Kinslayers and Guest rights, or if that is a superstitious self fulfilling prophesy.

 

Good point. I tend to think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Society metes out the punishment for breaking taboos as a far as I can tell. People seem to get away with it when no one knows. I think part of the punishment is breaking taboos tends to eat people up from the inside, like Stannis for example. If people find out then you're either exiled (like Tyrion and Jorah) or you become a target (like the Freys). As far as I can tell breaking taboos is rarely worth it in Westeros.



#10 Mourneblade

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:12 PM

Is executing a traitor kinslaying? If the gods have any sense, I'm sure they've forgiven Stannis. Renly was, after all, the younger brother, and it was his duty, according to their laws, to bow down to his elder brother.

 

I believe there are no gods in Westeros. A curse is a curse though, just like peoples perception of them.

 

 

Good point. I tend to think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Society metes out the punishment for breaking taboos as a far as I can tell. People seem to get away with it when no one knows. I think part of the punishment is breaking taboos tends to eat people up from the inside, like Stannis for example. If people find out then you're either exiled (like Tyrion and Jorah) or you become a target (like the Freys). As far as I can tell breaking taboos is rarely worth it in Westeros.

 

I cannot say one way or the other because there is a strong fantasy element to this, but you could be completely correct.



#11 lifefullofwords

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:18 PM

 

I cannot say one way or the other because there is a strong fantasy element to this, but you could be completely correct.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure either honestly but I've seen no sign of magic as of yet in this particular area. I could definitely be wrong though, I frequently am when it comes to ASoIaF. ;)



#12 Mourneblade

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:24 PM

 

Yeah, I'm not sure either honestly but I've seen no sign of magic as of yet in this particular area. I could definitely be wrong though, I frequently am when it comes to ASoIaF. ;)

 

Well we know Stannis has suffered physically and spiritually for his role in the creation of shadow babies.

 

We know the story of the Rat King, could be a complete myth, but there is some basis for it.

 

We know that Freys are dying left and right to a walking corpse, who is alive because solely because of magic.

 

We know that the mutineers at Craster's Keep were killed by Coldhands.... another walking corpse and totally magical, even if he is Bloodraven's meatsuit.

 

We know that Tyrion is suffering, and at just beginning to bounce off of total rock bottom. 

 

We know that Robb was horribly betrayed and mutilated.

 

Euron is the only one who seems to be thriving after his kinslaying lol



#13 lifefullofwords

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:45 PM

 

Well we know Stannis has suffered physically and spiritually for his role in the creation of shadow babies.

 

We know the story of the Rat King, could be a complete myth, but there is some basis for it.

 

We know that Freys are dying left and right to a walking corpse, who is alive because solely because of magic.

 

We know that the mutineers at Craster's Keep were killed by Coldhands.... another walking corpse and totally magical, even if he is Bloodraven's meatsuit.

 

We know that Tyrion is suffering, and at just beginning to bounce off of total rock bottom. 

 

We know that Robb was horribly betrayed and mutilated.

 

Euron is the only one who seems to be thriving after his kinslaying lol

 

I definitely see your point but in most of those cases either society was responsible for the punishment or the people basically punished themselves. It's not surprising Tyrion is miserable, he did a horrible thing and now he's been exiled. Stannis is tortured by what happened to Renly but he's being drained by the shadow babies, not that. Catelynn I agree is an embodiment of the curse but we know how she was reanimated and it wasn't by curse magic. Also, how unsurprising that Euron is not affected - he is a lucky bastard and has absolutely has no conscience. Still, he could be punished yet.

 

I guess I would need something more concrete to be sure. Obviously magic is involved in some of your examples but outside actors are always responsible for it. The only exception seems to be the Rat King and that's a legend. I do agree that people who break taboos seems to be cursed. A lot of non-taboo breakers come to bad ends too though so I'm not sure that alone is convincing. But I could very well be wrong, I definitely think it's very possible that there is a magic element to taboo punishment.

 

BTW I don't consider Robb a kinslayer since he didn't kill an immediate relative, just a cousin and that seems to happen a lot in Westeros. I suppose it's a bit of a gray area though, people seems to see it that way in the books.



#14 Mourneblade

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:48 PM

 

I definitely see your point but in most of those cases either society was responsible for the punishment or the people basically punished themselves. It's not surprising Tyrion is miserable, he did a horrible thing and now he's been exiled. Stannis is tortured by what happened to Renly but he's being drained by the shadow babies, not that. Catelynn I agree is an embodiment of the curse but we know how she was reanimated and it wasn't by curse magic. Also, how unsurprising that Euron is not affected - he is a lucky bastard and has absolutely has no conscience. Still, he could be punished yet.

 

I guess I would need something more concrete to be sure. Obviously magic is involved in some of your examples but outside actors are always responsible for it. The only exception seems to be the Rat King and that's a legend. I do agree that people who break taboos seems to be cursed. A lot of non-taboo breakers come to bad ends too though so I'm not sure that alone is convincing. But I could very well be wrong, I definitely think it's very possible that there is a magic element to taboo punishment.

 

BTW I don't consider Robb a kinslayer since he didn't kill an immediate relative, just a cousin and that seems to happen a lot in Westeros. I suppose it's a bit of a gray area though, people seems to see it that way in the books.

 

yeah it proves absolutely nothing, and neither does it disprove it lol....who knows.



#15 A Man Has Said

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:52 PM

Boy, did GRRM ever go out of his way to make this the most morally ambiguous act in the books. 

 

Stannis DID go back on his word - until dawn there was a ceasefire in place that both Baratheon brothers had agreed to. Stannis broke that ceasefire. That puts the act in the 'murder' category. It cannot be argued that it was a killing in the heat of combat.

 

Stannis DID direct the actions of the shadowbaby. The shadowbaby LOOKED like Stannis and ACTED with Stannis' intentions. He wanted to kill his brother, HE killed his brother - with Melisandre's sorcerous assistance. This is especially clear if you put together the description of the act as it was taking place, Stannis' statements to Davos after the fact, Catelyn's recollections of witnessing the event, and Brienne's recollections. In that respect Stannis, not Mel, killed Renly.

 

BUT Stannis was not informed by Mel ahead of time that this was going to take place. It was as if he committed the act while sleepwalking. If you google 'sleepwalking killer' or 'sleepwalking rapist' you'll see instances where such a defence has gotten the 'perp' off the hook, and other instances where they have gone to jail. So, as I said, it's morally ambiguous. It's impossible to say to a legal certainty that there was mens rea attached to the act.

The "I am the rightful king and he was committing treason" defence doesn't cut it for me.

Stannis was the rightful king only in his own estimation.

He had never been recognized by the realm as the monarch, nor had he ever sat the Iron Throne.

If he had won at Blackwater he would have become king then, but at the time Renly was killed he was not.



#16 Nyrhex

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 03:53 PM

How many of you honestly believe the Stannis/Renly situation would've counted as kinslaying?

 

This goes either way....Stannis being slain by Renly's army, and obviously Renly's assassination. I really don't think it's kinslaying since it's being committed by a third party, either one of Renly's soldiers, or Stannis's dark assassin. Since neither of them were willing to negotiate or compromise it came to that, and it's not kinslaying either way.

 

You could even parallel it to Cersei trying to get Tyrion killed on the Blackwater by the Kingsguard...no one ever brings that up as kinslaying that much.

 

There's plenty of real life examples of "kinslaying" such as Elizabath I who had her half-sister Mary executed (so I recall), so it's not like it's an unprecedented thing to do.

 

Depends on how one looks at the kinslaying taboo in Westeros, and how one looks at Renly's death and the details we have on it.

 

Kinslaying

 

Bael had a son with a lord Stark's only daughter. He would not kill his own son in battle, due to the taboo of kinslaying. His son killed him, unknowing that he was killing his father. His mother saw her son entering Winterfell with his father's head on a spear, and killed herself by jumping from a tower. That Stark would later die at the hands of Boltons.

 

Think for a moment that in this story, the gods blame someone for kiiling his own kin without his grandfather, his mother, or hell, even his own father telling him mid-battle sometihng along the lines of "I am your father". He gets fucked and is flayed by Boltons for doing what he thought a lord should do - defend his realm nd people against an invasion of a hostile force. 

 

Now think how stupid this story is. Set aside for the moment the retarded notion that someone can simply hide in the crypts for 9 months, with a pregnant woman, without running out of food or water, without seeing the sun, needing to shit where you live, without those 9 months falling on some date that the lord of Winterfell goes to the crypts to place flowers or something on this grave or that one. If Bael's son is lord, that means that his grandfather is already dead. If the Stark lord who was fathered by Bael did not know the tale of how he was born, nobody but Bael and the mother know. If no one but Bael and the Mother knew, who the hell would spread that tale later and make a song of it, if the mother killed herself right after seeing Bael's head on a spear, and Bael did not tell his own son before he died? It's a made up story with a built-in logical fallacy. A society that is built around the family structure creats a taboo about killing your own kin. It's passed down for generations with "proof" in the shape of song and legend. It's still bullshit.

 

Now compare Karstark and Theon. Rickard Karstark calls Robb a kinslayer for killing his own kin, regardless of it being just. This fits with the old and new gods being dicks and punishing people for killing a person who deserves it, but has blood ties to the person who orders/carrys out the killing. But Theon is not a Stark by blood. Theon is a Greyjoy, and was a prisoner in Winterfell. Was raised there, learned to read and do sums, went to ride and hunt with the boys, but he was still a prisoner. So, blood ties is not the only thing that makes you eligible to be kinslayer, it's also if you are considered as good as family. After Theon "kills" his own kin, he is no longer considered kin. Men who are sworn to the Starks wish to kill him. Starks wish to kill him.

 

By the same logic, if someone is declaring that he is about to kill who he believes are his nephew (at least, if not all three), his nephew's mother (as Cersei points out to Robert after Tyrion is kidnapped, his kin by law), and later his brother as well, is that person still considered family to the (twincest) trio and to Stannis?

 

Renly's death

 

Stannis claims to have been asleep at the time. He brings Mel and Devan as two people who saw him asleep at the time. He dreams of Renly's death later, and remembers details he could not see (if we interpret a woman screaming as Brienne), which implies that he saw through the shadow. We have no idea if he was directing the shadow, or if he was in spectator mode. Considering that Mel had to pass Storm's End's magical defenses to use the shadow, and Stannis does not mention similar visions regarding Penrose, one could assume that the shadow operates by itself or by Mel (seems most likely, considering that she is a SHADOWBINDER. Binding shadows is literally in her title). The magical defenses of SE likely stopped Stannis from getting feedback, the same way they prevent Mel's control or even the shadow itself from entering to SE.

 

If Stannis is not aware that he is in fact part of Renly's death, if Mel, a shadowbinder, binds a shadow to her will and tries to force a future, using Stannis' life force as fuel, is being fuel for someone elses' kill the same as killing by yourself?



#17 Mourneblade

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:00 PM

 

Depends on how one looks at the kinslaying taboo in Westeros, and how one looks at Renly's death and the details we have on it.

 

Kinslaying

 

Bael had a son with a lord Stark's only daughter. He would not kill his own son in battle, due to the taboo of kinslaying. His son killed him, unknowing that he was killing his father. His mother saw her son entering Winterfell with his father's head on a spear, and killed herself by jumping from a tower. That Stark would later die at the hands of Boltons.

 

Think for a moment that in this story, the gods blame someone for kiiling his own kin without his grandfather, his mother, or hell, even his own father telling him mid-battle sometihng along the lines of "I am your father". He gets fucked and is flayed by Boltons for doing what he thought a lord should do - defend his realm nd people against an invasion of a hostile force. 

 

Now think how stupid this story is. Set aside for the moment the retarded notion that someone can simply hide in the crypts for 9 months, with a pregnant woman, without running out of food or water, without seeing the sun, needing to shit where you live, without those 9 months falling on some date that the lord of Winterfell goes to the crypts to place flowers or something on this grave or that one. If Bael's son is lord, that means that his grandfather is already dead. If the Stark lord who was fathered by Bael did not know the tale of how he was born, nobody but Bael and the mother know. If no one but Bael and the Mother knew, who the hell would spread that tale later and make a song of it, if the mother killed herself right after seeing Bael's head on a spear, and Bael did not tell his own son before he died? It's a made up story with a built-in logical fallacy. A society that is built around the family structure creats a taboo about killing your own kin. It's passed down for generations with "proof" in the shape of song and legend. It's still bullshit.

 

Now compare Karstark and Theon. Rickard Karstark calls Robb a kinslayer for killing his own kin, regardless of it being just. This fits with the old and new gods being dicks and punishing people for killing a person who deserves it, but has blood ties to the person who orders/carrys out the killing. But Theon is not a Stark by blood. Theon is a Greyjoy, and was a prisoner in Winterfell. Was raised there, learned to read and do sums, went to ride and hunt with the boys, but he was still a prisoner. So, blood ties is not the only thing that makes you eligible to be kinslayer, it's also if you are considered as good as family. After Theon "kills" his own kin, he is no longer considered kin. Men who are sworn to the Starks wish to kill him. Starks wish to kill him.

 

By the same logic, if someone is declaring that he is about to kill who he believes are his nephew (at least, if not all three), his nephew's mother (as Cersei points out to Robert after Tyrion is kidnapped, his kin by law), and later his brother as well, is that person still considered family to the (twincest) trio and to Stannis?

 

Renly's death

 

Stannis claims to have been asleep at the time. He brings Mel and Devan as two people who saw him asleep at the time. He dreams of Renly's death later, and remembers details he could not see (if we interpret a woman screaming as Brienne), which implies that he saw through the shadow. We have no idea if he was directing the shadow, or if he was in spectator mode. Considering that Mel had to pass Storm's End's magical defenses to use the shadow, and Stannis does not mention similar visions regarding Penrose, one could assume that the shadow operates by itself or by Mel (seems most likely, considering that she is a SHADOWBINDER. Binding shadows is literally in her title). The magical defenses of SE likely stopped Stannis from getting feedback, the same way they prevent Mel's control or even the shadow itself from entering to SE.

 

If Stannis is not aware that he is in fact part of Renly's death, if Mel, a shadowbinder, binds a shadow to her will and tries to force a future, using Stannis' life force as fuel, is being fuel for someone elses' kill the same as killing by yourself?

 

That is all well and good... but the fact Stannis uses the same method the take Storms End lol... well...

 

Stannis is not a man to be undone.



#18 TheBastardofBluegrass

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:04 PM

We know that the mutineers at Craster's Keep were killed by Coldhands.... another walking corpse and totally magical, even if he is Bloodraven's meatsuit.

When was that revealed?



#19 A Man Has Said

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:07 PM

 

Depends on how one looks at the kinslaying taboo in Westeros, and how one looks at Renly's death and the details we have on it.

 

Kinslaying

 

Bael had a son with a lord Stark's only daughter. He would not kill his own son in battle, due to the taboo of kinslaying. His son killed him, unknowing that he was killing his father. His mother saw her son entering Winterfell with his father's head on a spear, and killed herself by jumping from a tower. That Stark would later die at the hands of Boltons.

 

Think for a moment that in this story, the gods blame someone for kiiling his own kin without his grandfather, his mother, or hell, even his own father telling him mid-battle sometihng along the lines of "I am your father". He gets fucked and is flayed by Boltons for doing what he thought a lord should do - defend his realm nd people against an invasion of a hostile force. 

 

Now think how stupid this story is. Set aside for the moment the retarded notion that someone can simply hide in the crypts for 9 months, with a pregnant woman, without running out of food or water, without seeing the sun, needing to shit where you live, without those 9 months falling on some date that the lord of Winterfell goes to the crypts to place flowers or something on this grave or that one. If Bael's son is lord, that means that his grandfather is already dead. If the Stark lord who was fathered by Bael did not know the tale of how he was born, nobody but Bael and the mother know. If no one but Bael and the Mother knew, who the hell would spread that tale later and make a song of it, if the mother killed herself right after seeing Bael's head on a spear, and Bael did not tell his own son before he died? It's a made up story with a built-in logical fallacy. A society that is built around the family structure creats a taboo about killing your own kin. It's passed down for generations with "proof" in the shape of song and legend. It's still bullshit.

 

Now compare Karstark and Theon. Rickard Karstark calls Robb a kinslayer for killing his own kin, regardless of it being just. This fits with the old and new gods being dicks and punishing people for killing a person who deserves it, but has blood ties to the person who orders/carrys out the killing. But Theon is not a Stark by blood. Theon is a Greyjoy, and was a prisoner in Winterfell. Was raised there, learned to read and do sums, went to ride and hunt with the boys, but he was still a prisoner. So, blood ties is not the only thing that makes you eligible to be kinslayer, it's also if you are considered as good as family. After Theon "kills" his own kin, he is no longer considered kin. Men who are sworn to the Starks wish to kill him. Starks wish to kill him.

 

By the same logic, if someone is declaring that he is about to kill who he believes are his nephew (at least, if not all three), his nephew's mother (as Cersei points out to Robert after Tyrion is kidnapped, his kin by law), and later his brother as well, is that person still considered family to the (twincest) trio and to Stannis?

 

Renly's death

 

Stannis claims to have been asleep at the time. He brings Mel and Devan as two people who saw him asleep at the time. He dreams of Renly's death later, and remembers details he could not see (if we interpret a woman screaming as Brienne), which implies that he saw through the shadow. We have no idea if he was directing the shadow, or if he was in spectator mode. Considering that Mel had to pass Storm's End's magical defenses to use the shadow, and Stannis does not mention similar visions regarding Penrose, one could assume that the shadow operates by itself or by Mel (seems most likely, considering that she is a SHADOWBINDER. Binding shadows is literally in her title). The magical defenses of SE likely stopped Stannis from getting feedback, the same way they prevent Mel's control or even the shadow itself from entering to SE.

 

If Stannis is not aware that he is in fact part of Renly's death, if Mel, a shadowbinder, binds a shadow to her will and tries to force a future, using Stannis' life force as fuel, is being fuel for someone elses' kill the same as killing by yourself?

That's a pretty good effort at bringing together the facts, but I would differ with you on a couple of points.

 

The way I read it, (and he describes to Davos some time after the fact) he dreamed of the shadow assassination while it was taking place. Now, that could be a matter of interpretation, or possibly it could be determined by a closer reading of that passage. Knowing GRRM, I'd guess that you could read it over and over and there'd still be room for doubt. He just doesn't do definitive.

 

Even less definitive, and dependent on how you interpret they former point, is whether Melisandre bound the shadow to HER will or to Stannis' will. We don't really know enough about shadowbinding to say.

 

Just to add something that I might have said above, not responding to your post Nyrhex 
If it had been the other way around and Renly had ended up killing Stannis, I would not have hesitated to call Renly a kinslayer.

I think it's important to apply the same standard of judgment to all the characters, rather than to pick one and act as their advocate. 


Edited by A Man Has Said, 06 May 2014 - 04:23 PM.


#20 TheBastardofBluegrass

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:09 PM

In the World of Ice and Fire, kinslaying is in the eyes of the beholder.  I would call Stannis a kinslayer, he knew Renly was going to die before their battle, and he did it without hesitation.  Whether it's a technicality or not Stannis was responsible for the action.  Theon, Robb, and Euron, all three are labeled/believed/accused of kinslaying.