Stannis, Renly and kinslaying.

[Mourneblade]

When was that revealed?

It was revealed to Bran when Bran questioned Coldhands about the dead Night's Watch that Summer came across, during his trip to the cave.

[A Man Has Said]

Theon: not a kinslayer. Being someone's ward or hostage is not the same as being kin.

Robb: not a kinslayer. Killing someone whose family branched off from your family 1,000 years earlier doesn't even come close to qualifying.

Euron: Believed to have ordered the death of his brother Balon. No proof though. :/

[Nyrhex]

That is all well and good... but the fact Stannis uses the same method the take Storms End lol... well...

Stannis is not a man to be undone.

Does he? He has nothing to connect the two. Renly's own guard claim that Brienne or Catelyn killed Renly, and Stannis never mentions having the same dream with Penrose' death. He tells Davos that he sounds a fool when he acuses Mel for Renly's death.

That's a pretty good effort at bringing together the facts, but I would differ with you on a couple of points.

The way I read it, (and he describes to Davos some time after the fact) he dreamed of the shadow assassination while it was taking place. Now, that could be a matter of interpretation, or possibly it could be determined by a closer reading of that passage. Knowing GRRM, I'd guess that you could read it over and over and there'd still be room for doubt. He just doesn't do definitive.

Even less definitive, and dependent on how you interpret they former point, is whether Melisandre bound the shadow to HER will or to Stannis' will. We don't really know enough about shadowbinding to say.

He had the same dream again for the past two weeks, and IIRC still does. Was it spectator mode only, or did he control it? We see no such dream with Penrose. which implies that the shadow is either launch-and-forget, or guide-by-shadowbinding (Mel).

Theon: not a kinslayer. Being someone's ward or hostage is not the same as being kin.

Robb: not a kinslayer. Killing someone whose family branched off from your family 1,000 years earlier doesn't even come close to qualifying.

Euron: Believed to have ordered the death of his brother Balon. No proof though. :/

The Northmen seem to think of Theon as a kinslayer, and Alys Karstark also calls Jon Snow kin, and asks him for aid based on that fact.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Stannis is a kinslayer, I wouldn't even bother debating against it. Its like Jon with Ygritte, Bloodraven with Daemon, yes I appreciate the former pair aren't kin but it still works with what I am saying, it may not have been their arrows that killed them, but they're still responsible for their deaths, or should I say that Jon, Bloodraven and Stannis are as responsible for the deaths of Renly, Ygritte and Daemon as the latter three were as responsible for their own.

[TheBastardofBluegrass]

It was revealed to Bran when Bran questioned Coldhands about the dead Night's Watch that Summer came across, during his trip to the cave.

Damn, I completely blanked out...was that in ASOS?...when Jojen says, "Your monster, Bran."

[The Dames do Moan]

So would Tywin be a kinslayer Tyrions was sentenced to death and executed being that he was a judge and would have made the order?

Is Cersei a kinslayer as she elaborates all this information to try and get Tyrion put to death?

Is the fact that is is "justified" in the realm's eyes make them not kinslaying?

Is Theon a kinslayer if the Miller's boys were his son's and he did order Reek to kill them?

[Mulled Wino]

Well we know Stannis has suffered physically and spiritually for his role in the creation of shadow babies.

We know the story of the Rat King, could be a complete myth, but there is some basis for it.

We know that Freys are dying left and right to a walking corpse, who is alive because solely because of magic.

We know that the mutineers at Craster's Keep were killed by Coldhands.... another walking corpse and totally magical, even if he is Bloodraven's meatsuit.

We know that Tyrion is suffering, and at just beginning to bounce off of total rock bottom.

We know that Robb was horribly betrayed and mutilated.

Euron is the only one who seems to be thriving after his kinslaying lol

Not necessarily all the mutineers.

Stannis is dealing with the repercussions of having to do Renly before Renly did him. Totally legit. Renly told him he will kill him. If that doesn't justify homicide of anyone, nothing does.

[Mulled Wino]

In the World of Ice and Fire, kinslaying is in the eyes of the beholder. I would call Stannis a kinslayer, he knew Renly was going to die before their battle, and he did it without hesitation. Whether it's a technicality or not Stannis was responsible for the action. Theon, Robb, and Euron, all three are labeled/believed/accused of kinslaying.

Horrible examples:

1) no one threatened Theon's life directly.

2) Robb, c'mon....

3) Euron hired someone to kill his brother who didn't pose him any immediate danger at all. Balon had no idea where Euron was..

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Kinslaying is like sheepfucking, really. You fuck a sheep, you're a sheep fucker, you kill your brother, you're a kinslayer. It's as simple as that. The fact that you were very lonely, or that she looked very purty, doesn't suddenly make the coitus "not sheepfucking".

[TheBastardofBluegrass]

Horrible examples:

1) no one threatened Theon's life directly.

2) Robb, c'mon....

3) Euron hired someone to kill his brother who didn't pose him any immediate danger at all. Balon had no idea where Euron was..

Ok, but my point was that's how they're (Robb, Theon, Stannis, Euron) perceived at varying times in the novels, not whether they actually committed kinslaying.

[A Man Has Said]

Not necessarily all the mutineers.

Stannis is dealing with the repercussions of having to do Renly before Renly did him. Totally legit. Renly told him he will kill him. If that doesn't justify homicide of anyone, nothing does.

Kind of ignores the fact that Stannis had come all the way from Dragonstone specifically to kill Renly and take his bannermen, doesn't it?

In modern terms, you could say that Renly had a strong 'stand your ground' defence. He didn't go after Stannis until Stannis came after him.

[chicagostatecougars]

Renly had some pretty good reasons there for stealing his bro's claim. I mean, he's totally popular with the small folk and such a great looking guy.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Kind of ignores the fact that Stannis had come all the way from Dragonstone specifically to kill Renly and take his bannermen, doesn't it?

In modern terms, you could say that Renly had a strong 'stand your ground' defence. He didn't go after Stannis until Stannis came after him.

Yeah but then a man could go a step further and say that what with Renly intending to queue jump Stannis, Stannis can only assume Renly means to do away with him, and for that reason he attacked him first in an attempt to either make him stand down, or kill him.

Renly had some pretty good reasons there for stealing his bro's claim. I mean, he's totally popular with the small folk and such a great looking guy.

That green armour...

[coatzin]

Yes he is, he killed his brother... is Jon a kinslayer for executing Janos Slynt, his brother?

[Boarsbane]

Yes he is, he killed his brother... is Jon a kinslayer for executing Janos Slynt, his brother?

Is Janos Slynt one of Rhaegar's bastards too? Seems a bit old

[Mourneblade]

Damn, I completely blanked out...was that in ASOS?...when Jojen says, "Your monster, Bran."

It might not be that same chapter, but if it's not it's around then.

[devilrob6]

Kind of ignores the fact that Stannis had come all the way from Dragonstone specifically to kill Renly and take his bannermen, doesn't it?

In modern terms, you could say that Renly had a strong 'stand your ground' defence. He didn't go after Stannis until Stannis came after him.

He may not have come to kill him. He offered Renly terms for bending the knee. Just showing up at SE with an army doesn't mean he wanted Renly dead. You can order your men to capture certain people alive. Like Renly did about Barristan (and NOT about Stannis).

If Stannis ordered Mel to murder Renly he is a kinslayer. If he controlled the shadowbaby, he is a kinslayer. But there is no proof from the books that either is true (or false). It's all speculation. The whole discussion is basically: I don't like Stannis so I interprete it this way. I do like Stannis so i interprete it that way.

[Boarsbane]

He may not have come to kill him. He offered Renly terms for bending the knee. Just showing up at SE with an army doesn't mean he wanted Renly dead. You can order your men to capture certain people alive. Like Renly did about Barristan (and NOT about Stannis).

If Stannis ordered Mel to murder Renly he is a kinslayer. If he controlled the shadowbaby, he is a kinslayer. But there is no proof from the books that either is true (or false). It's all speculation. The whole discussion is basically: I don't like Stannis so I interprete it this way. I do like Stannis so i interprete it that way.

No proof other than his dreams, guilt, and his physical state worsening after the deed? Sure, probably all just a coincidence.

[Wmarshal]

Yeah it was, but an unavoidably one.

[devilrob6]

His dreams don't prove if he controled the shadowbaby, or that he ordered it. He had a part in creating the shadowbaby, but might just as well just know he had sex with Mel without having a clue what she was up to. Again no proof of kinslaying. And getting physically in a worse state can only happen to kinslayers? Drogo got worse from MMD's magic. Did that make him a kinslayer?