Doran and Oberyn planned on poisoning Tywin

[Ghost wind]

I was reading Areoh Hota's chapter in aFfC when I came across this quote:

Doran: "Lord Tywin shall deliver us the Mountain's head"

Obara: "And who shall deliver us Lord Tywin's head?"

Doran: "Obara, look at the children, if it please you"

[...]

to watch the battles as smaller children rode through the waist deep shallows on the solders of the larger and tried to shove each other into the water.

[...]

"Your father played that same game once, as I did before him", said the prince. "We had ten years between us, so I had left the pools by the time he was old enough to play, but I would watch him when I came to visit Mother. He was so fierce, even as a boy. Quick as a water snake. I oft saw him topple boys much bigger than himself. He reminded me of that the day he left for King's Landing. He swore that he would do it one more time, else I would never have let him go."

That is a dialogue between Obara and Doran discussing Oberyn. Oberyn was going to KL to take his place at the Small Council and to get revenge from Elia's death. He was promised Clegane's head but here Doran suggests that Oberyn himself was going to "topple some big guy". He couldn't mean the Mountain as his head was already promised by Tyrion and Oberyn didn't actually have to take him down (he only did to achieve a confession and when he left Dorne he wouldn't know about someone killing Joffrey and there being a trial so he could champion for Tyrion and etc.)

So could Doran be saying that Oberyn was going to KL to take down Tywin and that he only let him go to KL because he is the one person in Dorne perfect to do such work? This obviously ties with the whole invisible poison and so on.

Also this is a line of work to be expected for Doran. He's not going to risk to an open war against the Lannisters but poisoning Tywin would be the perfect cover because even though people would suspect of Oberyn they would have no proof so they couldn't blame Dorne.

I was going to post this in the "Oberyn poisoned Tywin" thread but it was locked.

[iliasb]

He couldn't mean the Mountain as his head was already promised by Tyrion and Oberyn didn't actually have to take him down

Where was it promised, if not literally? I still believe he meant The Mountain...

[Bael's Bastard]

I think what you are interpreting as referring to Tywin is referring to the Mountain. I don't know whether he poisoned Tywin or not, but I don't think the comment refers to poisoning Tywin.

[Ran]

Don't think so. Per AFfC:

"I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children. It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him, but it would seem his dwarf son has robbed me of that pleasure."

I think they rightfully doubted Tywin's willingness to hand over Gregor, so Oberyn was going to force the issue. Killing Tywin was not a plan at this point, as they wanted to destroy everything around him first so he could see the ruin of his house before he died.

[Dornish Vinegar]

This is a fairly common theory, I think, that Oberyn was sent to Kings Landing to take care of Tywin and Gregor Clegane. My favorite interpretation (I can't remember who first wrote it out but I read it here maybe two months ago) is that Oberyn was sent to KL and poison Tywin. Obviously, with Oberyn's reputation as a master of poisons and the Lannisters on the throne, Oberyn would be brought to trial for Tywin's death. Oberyn would request a trial by combat, the Mountain would be the Lannister's champion, and Oberyn would get a confession from and kill the Mountain and return to Dorne, a free man, with the world knowing who really was responsible for Elia and her children's deaths and that justice was dealt. Obviously, the Lannisters would then have no legal recourse for punishing Oberyn, which is just a humiliating cherry on top of the Martell's sundae.

This would be happening at the same time (roughly) that Quentyn would be going to fetch Daenerys, so it would be worth the escalation in hostilities between the Martells and the Crown that it would engender, even for Doran. And anyway, they would still have Myrcella as a hostage.

EDIT: (Whether or not this was actually the plan, in light of Ran's quote above, obviously isn't something that's totally consistent with what Doran has said his plan was. At least, as we know it at this point in the story.)

[Ghost wind]

Well Tyrion promised him vengeance for Elia and everyone in Westeros knows the Mountain killed Elia. Also Obara asks for Tywin's head which means that in Dorne they had the idea that Tywin was the one ordering Clegane to do so. So I don't know it doesn't seem to me that Oberyn is going to KL to fight against the Mountain because that was a coincidence. So Doran couldn't know he was going to fight the Mountain he'd think that Oberyn would discuss with Tywin and they would execute Gregor. So Oberyn taking down someone would have to refer to Tywin.

[Bael's Bastard]

Don't get me wrong, I think Oberyn may have wanted to get the Mountain to admit that Tywin gave the order, then who knows what he would have done next, but I doubt he planned ahead to poison Tywin, or actually ended up poisoning him.

[Ghost wind]

Don't think so. Per AFfC:

"I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children. It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him, but it would seem his dwarf son has robbed me of that pleasure."

I think they rightfully doubted Tywin's willingness to hand over Gregor, so Oberyn was going to force the issue. Killing Tywin was not a plan at this point, as they wanted to destroy everything around him first so he could see the ruin of his house before he died.

Do you know who Oberyn is talking to there?

[Ser Artys Arryn]

Well Tyrion promised him vengeance for Elia and everyone in Westeros knows the Mountain killed Elia. Also Obara asks for Tywin's head which means that in Dorne they had the idea that Tywin was the one ordering Clegane to do so. So I don't know it doesn't seem to me that Oberyn is going to KL to fight against the Mountain because that was a coincidence. So Doran couldn't know he was going to fight the Mountain he'd think that Oberyn would discuss with Tywin and they would execute Gregor. So Oberyn taking down someone would have to refer to Tywin.

He promised him vengeance but he didn't specifically promise them Gregor's head. Tywin wasn't willing to throw Gregor to the snakes before, he wasn't going to be if Oberyn showed up because of a vague promise the son he hates made. The only way Oberyn was going to bring Gregor down was to kill him, Tywin showed he had no intent of just handing Gregor over by putting all the blame on Amory until after Gregor confesses and kills Oberyn.

[Ghost wind]

He promised him vengeance but he didn't specifically promise them Gregor's head. Tywin wasn't willing to throw Gregor to the snakes before, he wasn't going to be if Oberyn showed up because of a vague promise the son he hates made. The only way Oberyn was going to bring Gregor down was to kill him, Tywin showed he had no intent of just handing Gregor over by putting all the blame on Amory until after Gregor confesses and kills Oberyn.

Did Tywin blame Amory? I didn't remember that. I thought it was common known Gregor killed Elia and her children.

[Ran]

That's Doran speaking to Arianne in "The Princess in the Tower."

[Sun]

The Oberyn poisoned Tywin theory is covered here http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/67678-oberyn-poisoned-tywin/#entry3252149

And here's the continuing thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104602-oberyn-poisoned-tywin-vol-2/?hl=%2Boberyn+%2Btywin+%2Bpoison

[Ghost wind]

Then Doran might think his brother could never finish the deed so he'd think Tyrion killed him. He doesn't have any proof that Oberyn could finally kill Tywin

[oursisthefury69]

Great thread, to the first two comments, the whole point is that the Mountain's head is already taken for granted assuming Tywin will try to appease Dorne, Tywin is the man Oberyn was sent to take down. Obviously he didn't anticipate Tyrions trial, so I believe Oberyn left with the intentions of eventually poisoning Tywin while on the small council, and when he was inevitably accused he would demand a trial by combat and try to defeat a different champion or Gregor if Tywin still hadn't had him executed. However, I don't know if Doran was necessarily behind how quickly/recklessly Oberyn went about everything

I think a lot of people around here acknowledge Tywin was poisoned by someone, and its usually a debate of Oberyn Vs Varys; I think Oberyn's the better choice considering Varys pretty blatantly lead an infuriated Tyrion to Tywins chambers, so it would seem like overkill for him to poison him as well

To Rans point, I think its a fair possibility Oberyn and Doran weren't on the same page anymore, and Oberyn planned to finally recklessly take matters into his own hands rather than wait on Doran's over-cautious plans, (especially in the wake of the marriage pact he made for Viserys being ruined with Viserys death) and didn't share Dorans idea of ruining everything around Tywin first., just a slow painful death by poison instead. And Tywins blaming of Amory would have gave Obeyn the incentive to know he would probably get to face the Mountain in a trial by combat instead

[Ser Artys Arryn]

Did Tywin blame Amory? I didn't remember that. I thought it was common known Gregor killed Elia and her children.

Yes, Amory already being dead meant Amory couldn't say otherwise and implicate Tywin or Gregor. It seems to be but if Tywin just puts all the blame on Amory who was in the vicinity of Gregor at the time I don't think anyone else could, or would, prove otherwise.

[Sun]

There's also a very good theory that Varys poisoned Tywin (I find Varys a more convincing candidate). A quick search can lead you to the thread.

[The King In Yellow]

This is a fairly common theory, I think, that Oberyn was sent to Kings Landing to take care of Tywin and Gregor Clegane. My favorite interpretation (I can't remember who first wrote it out but I read it here maybe two months ago) is that Oberyn was sent to KL and poison Tywin. Obviously, with Oberyn's reputation as a master of poisons and the Lannisters on the throne, Oberyn would be brought to trial for Tywin's death. Oberyn would request a trial by combat, the Mountain would be the Lannister's champion, and Oberyn would get a confession from and kill the Mountain and return to Dorne, a free man, with the world knowing who really was responsible for Elia and her children's deaths and that justice was dealt. Obviously, the Lannisters would then have no legal recourse for punishing Oberyn, which is just a humiliating cherry on top of the Martell's sundae.

This would be happening at the same time (roughly) that Quentyn would be going to fetch Daenerys, so it would be worth the escalation in hostilities between the Martells and the Crown that it would engender, even for Doran. And anyway, they would still have Myrcella as a hostage.

I completely agree with this.

I also believe that the deed to Tywin was already done, however, Tyrion beat Oberyn to it, right before Tywin dies of excessive indigestion (due to the poison provided in a wine tasting event between Tywin, Mace and Oberyn).

[oursisthefury69]

@Sun We see Varys blatantly tell Tyrion how he can get to his Tywin's chambers; He's not an idiot, he knew that Tyrion was going to do something extreme and probably kill him. This would all seem a bit unnecessary (especially given he knows he's going to be implicated in Tyrions escape, as is made apparent from his absence in Kings Landing afterwards) if he knows Tywins already dying from poison.

We also know from the ADWD epilogue Varys can kill people rather easily enough with his knowledge of the hidden passages, he doesn't need poison

[Bael's Bastard]

Did Tywin blame Amory? I didn't remember that. I thought it was common known Gregor killed Elia and her children.

I am not sure if he ever got around to putting it on Lorch publicly, but in the conversation between Tywin and Tyrion, Tywin tells Tyrion that it is his intent to blame Lorch for all three deaths, and for the Mountain to remain as far away as possible while the Dornish remain in King's Landing.

[Mithras]

“Give me your blessing, then, and I shall go.”

Doran hesitated half a heartbeat before placing his hand on his niece’s head. “Be brave, child.”

No sooner had she taken her leave than Maester Caleotte hurried to the dais. “My prince, she did not... here, let me see your hand.” He examined the palm first, then gently turned it upside down to sniff at the back of the prince’s fingers. “No, good. That is good. There are no scratches, so...”

Tyene knows a lot of poison craft only seconded by Oberyn. Doran and Maester Caleotte worried that there might be a hidden spiky end on her head and with that scratch she could have poisoned Doran.

This shows how dangerous it is to keep a viper like Oberyn close . Tywin had to break his meals with him and stood by him during the trials.