Reasons Roose Bolton is not so hated in the north afterall.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I actually think they know damn well it's not Arya and are playing along until the timing is right.

Just like LF and "Alayne".

I think many think that it's easy to conspire in a universe like Westeros. It's not.

First, retaliations. If they simply kill Roose, the hostages of the North would be killed, and many of their villages and settlements, sacked.

Two, lack of information. Messages and news take days to arrive. And messages like these need to be extra secret. Which takes us to...

Three, like Doran (Or Aeroh?) said, "someone always talk". they don't know who they can trust, who has being bought, who would need anything from Bolton or the Crown so this person would realise that betraying them might get them something.

They always knew Roose betrayed them, but they probably weren't sure. Whatever they wanted to do needed two things: first, to be sure that their families would be safe, two, to know who they can trust. Both take time.

[Sages]

I actually think they know damn well it's not Arya and are playing along until the timing is right.

Yea the whole tone during the wedding made it seem to me that like the northern lords basically knew that arya is not the real deal. And they were only going only with the ruse (lol) because the freys have valuable important captives.

Also I believe all the northern lords know that the freys and boltons worked together to cause the downfall of house stark. Roose has a frey wife, he is one of two major northern highborns that returned unschathed from the red wedding with the blackfish being the other. Another giveaway is that he is now lord paramount of the north by the lannisters. And he is forcing arya stark to marry ramsay. That's just really a dead giveaway. They Frey's get all the vitriol because they violated guest right. Roose just assisted with thr killing. But everyone knows what Ramsay and Roose is about.

In my opinion they are just like manderly waiting for a chance to get the hostages set free, before risking open defiance. That's why they need stannis. All stannis really needs to do is weaken the bolton alliance by getting Dustin to abandon roose. If Roose loses Barbery dustin he looses the ryswells as well(I think she is a ryswell by birth) and will be significantly weakned. If they suffer a major defeat in the upcoming battle , I can see barbery dustin abandoning Roose. From there stannis can handle what's left of any bolton frey resistance with the help of manderly.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Like someone say upthread, technically there are no eye-witnesses or solid evidence against Roose. The guy really was thorough. Even sending Jaime to KL could be justified by claiming he was following Catelyn's orders.

But none of that would matter because I doubt there's gonna be a trial. Proof or no proof, the Northerners and Stannis would kill him all the same

[TheCrannogDweller]

Like someone say upthread, technically there are no eye-witnesses or solid evidence against Roose. The guy really was thorough. Even sending Jaime to KL could be justified by claiming he was following Catelyn's orders.

There are a lot of witnesses, actually - it's just that most of them are Freys. Hosteen Frey was there and he is currently riding towards Stannis's trap. If he is unlucky enough to survive the battle, he will be put to sharp questioning.

Then there are the others - the captives from the RW and Lady Stoneheart.

[HouseHarrison]

Roose doesn't have any real legitimate friends in the North

-Umbers = Half are working with him, but because the Freys have a hostage

-Karstarks = Acting out of anger towards the Starks for the death of Rickard

-Dustins = Acting out of Lady Dustins anger towards Ned

-Manderlys = Baking Freys and waiting for the moment to strike

-Ryswells = Hate Freys and seem unreliable

-Hornwoods = Pissed at the Boltons for Ramsay's treatment of Donella.

-Flint's = Half the House are vassals to Manderly.

And Glover/Reed/Mormont are acting against Roose.

That's basically all of the relevant houses of the North.

[The Fourth Head]

The thing about Roose is, he may have given himself enough leeway to survive because most, if not all evidence is circumstantial and he commands a sizeable number of men that have been served very well by him and done a great number of deeds in his name at this point. They are as thick as thieves. Roose could be spared if he is ever defeated. Had Robb forgiven, or imprisoned Rickard Karstark rather than execute him, then he would not have lost the Karstarks and the RW would not have been possible. Would the Bolton men lie down and take their Lord being beheaded? Or would it be more sensible to spare Roose, albeit wisely mistrusting him? After all, when the opportunity wasn't there for betrayal, Roose was an asset to Ned during Robert's rebellion and served him faithfully. From a pragmatic POV, there is no compelling case that pins him down and forces a ruler to behead him.

I could see many possibilities for Roose. Afterall, Roose has never tried to claim part of Stannis' realm as his own as a King. All he is doing is filling in an empty post as warden of the North and he could cut a deal and do the same for Stannis. Or he could simply swear allegiance to Stannis, accept that Stannis would never have him as warden of the north, and go back to being the Lord of the Dreadfort- as the Boltons have been for how many thousand years. Stannis is a pragmatist first and foremost. Stannis needs men, he needs the North and beheading Roose: perhaps the only man capable of commanding the Bolton men: may not be perceived as the most pragmatic move.

[Mad Monkey]

The thing about Roose is, he may have given himself enough leeway to survive because most, if not all evidence is circumstantial and he commands a sizeable number of men that have been served very well by him and done a great number of deeds in his name at this point. They are as thick as thieves. Roose could be spared if he is ever defeated.

That's true. I still think that most northmen are not going to need hard evidence. They know that Ramsay's actions are at least with his tacit approval -- he has never so much as publicly criticized Ramsay for these things, or made some kind of token apology for Lady Hornwood or for Arya. He also holds the North with the support of the Freys and the Lannisters, who the northmen despise. He might wriggle out of it, I agree, but he is in a worse position.

Had Robb forgiven, or imprisoned Rickard Karstark rather than execute him, then he would not have lost the Karstarks and the RW would not have been possible.

Rickard Karstark's men slipped out of camp before Rickard killed the Lannister boys. He sent them off to recapture Jaime and they were very careful not to be noticed until the day after.

Would the Bolton men lie down and take their Lord being beheaded? Or would it be more sensible to spare Roose, albeit wisely mistrusting him? After all, when the opportunity wasn't there for betrayal, Roose was an asset to Ned during Robert's rebellion and served him faithfully. From a pragmatic POV, there is no compelling case that pins him down and forces a ruler to behead him.

Pragmatic... well, Roose Bolton stabbed the North in the back. As an "asset" he is highly treacherous. If you have to "wisely mistrust" one of your main military commanders, then how much resources and energy are you going to spend trying to keep him from stabbing you in the back? Let's say someone else becomes ruler of the North -- can that person ever give Roose Bolton a command again, knowing that there's a chance that he will carelessly send men into the meat grinder? Or that he will take an appointment from the enemy?

Honestly, it doesn't seem worth it to me. Roose is a decent commander but he doesn't seem that special to me. I don't think that it's worth the risk. It would be like if Robb had somehow escaped the Red Wedding and then, a few weeks later, agreed to attend another party at the Twins. Roose has thoroughly and flagrantly abused any position of trust that he might have earned from Robert's Rebellion. Right now he's coasting entirely on the fact that he has hostages and the northmen don't have any options.

I could see many possibilities for Roose. Afterall, Roose has never tried to claim part of Stannis' realm as his own as a King. All he is doing is filling in an empty post as warden of the North and he could cut a deal and do the same for Stannis. Or he could simply swear allegiance to Stannis, accept that Stannis would never have him as warden of the north, and go back to being the Lord of the Dreadfort- as the Boltons have been for how many thousand years. Stannis is a pragmatist first and foremost. Stannis needs men, he needs the North and beheading Roose: perhaps the only man capable of commanding the Bolton men: may not be perceived as the most pragmatic move.

That's a very good point. I still think that, after Arnolf Karstark, Stannis would be smart enough to realize that having an ally who is eager to stab you in the back is actually worse than not having any allies at all, but I can definitely see him making this error if he was at the end of his rope and was desperate for any kind of support for his campaign. Ordinarily Stannis could say, "OK, I don't really trust you yet so I will take a hostage from you to ensure your good behavior" but who can Roose hand over? Ramsay?

[TheCrannogDweller]

Roose doesn't have any real legitimate friends in the North

You can also add this:

1. Umbers - Half are working with him, but only because the Freys have the Greatjon. Also the Smalljon was decapitated by Bolton men at the RW.

2. Karstarks - Acting out of anger towards the Starks for the death of Rickard. And out of Arnolf's ambition to force the Lannisters into executing his nephew and then usurp the Lordship from his niece.

3. Dustins - Acting out of Lady Dustins anger towards Ned. And she hates Ramsay, which can create a rift between them.

4. Manderlys - Baking Freys and waiting for the moment to strike. Lost a son at the RW and their army was abandoned by Roose to be destroyed by the Mountain.

5. Ryswells - Hate Freys and seem unreliable. They are tied to Lady Dustin and I expect the two Houses to act together, whatever they choose to do.

6. Hornwoods - Pissed at the Boltons for Ramsay's treatment of Donella. Well, politically speaking, there are no Hornwoods. There are a couple of Tallhart children with a Hornwood mother, who will side with the Manderlys, but only if they come to wield power, which is a far-off thing, considering that they are kids.

7. Flints - Half the House are vassals to Manderly. No, they aren't. There are at least three Houses Flint in the North and all of them will probably side with the Manderlys, but they are not their vassals. One of those houses lost a family member at the RW.

You missed the Cerwyns and the Tallharts - both of those Houses lost a family member to Ramsay's butchery outside of Winterfell.

Had Robb forgiven, or imprisoned Rickard Karstark rather than execute him, then he would not have lost the Karstarks and the RW would not have been possible.

Had King WhatsHisName Stark executed the Boltons of his time after their Rebellion with House Greystark, a lot of problems would've been prevented down the road. Sometimes mercy is a mistake.

From a pragmatic POV, there is no compelling case that pins him down and forces a ruler to behead him.

Pragmatism has nothing to do with it. He betrayed and murdered his King. That's treason and treason is punishable by death. If he's lucky and the Stark who does for him is merciful (or stupid) his newborn child may be spared (along with Fat Walda), but that's about it.

[The Fourth Head]

Stannis would be smart enough to realize that having an ally who is eager to stab you in the back is actually worse than not having any allies at all, but I can definitely see him making this error if he was at the end of his rope and was desperate for any kind of support for his campaign. Ordinarily Stannis could say, "OK, I don't really trust you yet so I will take a hostage from you to ensure your good behavior" but who can Roose hand over? Ramsay?

LOL exactly- the Lord of Winterfell. Or perhaps his "daughter in law"? :lol: If Stannis executes Theon he will be none the wiser. Maybe if Roose lookes like losing he could surrender on the pretence that he is trying to ensure his daughter in laws safety? Even if other lords believe her to be fake, if Theon is slienced, Stannis could be fooled into believing that Roose thinks Arya is genuine?

[Pablosplinter]

Does Roose ever express any thoughts over the Frey story of Robb turning in to a wolf and going nuts, and all the other nonsense they claim?...His stance on that story might have a bearing on his reputation in the North?

[fuem]

Stannis sorta had his brother killed

As he said laws should be made of ''iron not pudding''

If Stannis wins Roose is dust.

Also what POV is now inside Winterfell? Giving the more reason to think Stannis will win

Stannis has Theon do you think he will spare Roose if he can get Theon to talk to him bout what truly happened?
Also if Roose lives he will loose most of the clans all the rest.

[The Fourth Head]

You can also add this:

1. Umbers - Half are working with him, but only because the Freys have the Greatjon. Also the Smalljon was decapitated by Bolton men at the RW.

2. Karstarks - Acting out of anger towards the Starks for the death of Rickard. And out of Arnolf's ambition to force the Lannisters into executing his nephew and then usurp the Lordship from his niece.

3. Dustins - Acting out of Lady Dustins anger towards Ned. And she hates Ramsay, which can create a rift between them.

4. Manderlys - Baking Freys and waiting for the moment to strike. Lost a son at the RW and their army was abandoned by Roose to be destroyed by the Mountain.

5. Ryswells - Hate Freys and seem unreliable. They are tied to Lady Dustin and I expect the two Houses to act together, whatever they choose to do.

6. Hornwoods - Pissed at the Boltons for Ramsay's treatment of Donella. Well, politically speaking, there are no Hornwoods. There are a couple of Tallhart children with a Hornwood mother, who will side with the Manderlys, but only if they come to wield power, which is a far-off thing, considering that they are kids.

7. Flints - Half the House are vassals to Manderly. No, they aren't. There are at least three Houses Flint in the North and all of them will probably side with the Manderlys, but they are not their vassals. One of those houses lost a family member at the RW.

You missed the Cerwyns and the Tallharts - both of those Houses lost a family member to Ramsay's butchery outside of Winterfell.

Had King WhatsHisName Stark executed the Boltons of his time after their Rebellion with House Greystark, a lot of problems would've been prevented down the road. Sometimes mercy is a mistake.

Pragmatism has nothing to do with it. He betrayed and murdered his King. That's treason and treason is punishable by death. If he's lucky and the Stark who does for him is merciful (or stupid) his newborn child may be spared (along with Fat Walda), but that's about it.

Disliking the Boltons is a weak argument when it comes to who can protect you, who holds your loved ones, who holds the strength, who you fear the most. I think fear will become a growing factor in TWOW. I don't think Stannis necessarily offers a convincing enough alternative for the Northern Lords in Winterfell to suddenly grow a backbone. I could be wrong, but I think there is too much that we don't know for this speculation to be of much merit. I don't think Roose is what he seems to be, I don't think Stannis was snowed in by chance, and I think the WW, the roaming dead, and the means to escape their clutches will rapidly become the overriding concern for all the Lords- liking the Starks and disliking the Boltons will pale when faced with imminent annihilation and whoever can combat them or protect their lords from their wrath will be the King of Winter- personal hatred and love will pale compared to this, and if the boltons know something the Starks don't- ie sacrifice or offerings may protect you from the WW- then the Boltons could poke the eyes out of every other lord and still be safe.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Stannis has Theon do you think he will spare Roose if he can get Theon to talk to him bout what truly happened?

Theon knows all about Ramsay's actions in the North, but does he know about Roose's part in the Red Wedding?

...and I think the WW, the roaming dead, and the means to escape their clutches will rapidly become the overriding concern for all the Lords- liking the Starks and disliking the Boltons will pale when faced with imminent annihilation...

That might be the issue if the timeline was different. However, by the time the WW attack the Wall, the Battle for Winterfell would be long over. From there, it all depends on how Roose plays it. If he survives the battle and faces Stannis himself and tells him that he has information that can help him against the WW, I can definitely see his execution being postponed and Stannis taking him back to the Wall to meet Mel. But him keeping his power is pretty much out of the question.

[The Fourth Head]

Stannis sorta had his brother killed

As he said laws should be made of ''iron not pudding''

If Stannis wins Roose is dust.

Also what POV is now inside Winterfell? Giving the more reason to think Stannis will win

Stannis has Theon do you think he will spare Roose if he can get Theon to talk to him bout what truly happened?

Also if Roose lives he will loose most of the clans all the rest.

He still accepted Renlys' bannermen out of pragmatism despite them declaring for his brother. Plus Bolton has not defied Stannis in open combat, and what law has Roose openly broken? It was all the Freys and Ramsey. Roose just picked up the pieces, and looked suspicious by circumstance, no more. What witness could state categorically that they saw him commit any crime? you can't kill someone based on suspicion. This is not upholding the law. The only blatant crime committed was killing Robb- his king, and that was witnessed by noone by LS.

The absence of a POV in Winterfell doesn't suggest anything. It's often used as "evidence" of Stannis winning- which is nonsense. You believe what you want to believe, but I believe the opposite applies. The POV was on the losing side in the RW, the POV (Davos) lost on the blackwater, as did Tyrion on the BW before the non-POV's (Tyrells and Tywin) swept in to win.

Indeed, being recaptured by the Boltons as Stannis' army are defeated around him would be far more interesting from a POV perspective than to tag along to witness an already defeated Winterfell. Talk about bad positioning- it also suggests the non-POV's have something up their sleeves ready to surprise the POV- that could be a good lucky surprise, or it could be a bad surprise. We have already been shown Stannis' plan. What about Roose?

If it implies something mysterious and big may happen in WF off camera for dramatic effect then I still harbour hopes of the following:

"Icy eyed" Roose Bolton brought the Freys up to WF for a purpose. The WW's froze Stannis in deliberately at this exact position by the lake for a purpose. Freys army will go in the lake. Well done Stannis. Victory. The Freys will rise again as frozen reanimated wights. Shit. Roose meanwhile back in ADWD, was indeed worried that the lords would kick off and kill him and the Freys before he could put his master plan into action but winter is nigh, and that situation has diffused itself by sending the Freys and Manderleys off seperatly- he was going to march the whole lot into the lake under Ramseys leadership in one go, but fear that they could all turn on eachother mid battle forced him to separate them.

So just as we, from Theons POV see the undead emerge from the lake, we see Ramsey leading an army of wights headed by the undead lords that had just been betrayed and killed in winterfell- they had been gathered together for that exact purpose- perhaps Roose bolton has magical ice-powers, or perhaps he simply flings open the gates to the WW's who in actual fact aren't prevented from passing a wall that is made of the very ice they can wield, and we all hit out foreheads in wonderment that we ever assumed it would. So anticipating an assasination attempt on Ramsey and Roose, something that has been greatly implied by Mance's presence, the mistrust, the plotting and whispering, and our desire to see the Boltons betrayed: the exact opposite happens- the Boltons betray their own bannermen to the WW's, convert the remaining lords to undead, and pincer-trap Stannis, converting HIS army to undead as well. And so commences TWOW.

Thus POV Theon is the last harrowing witness to the entire north being converted to wights under ice-eyes Bolton-the new king of winter, who had successfully sacrificed all the remaining northmen he hadn't already killed off in the south, having remained faithful to the "old gods- the WW's- and having maintained his ritual of blood sacrifice when all other lords had forgotten to their cost.

[LROSyke]

The Roose, The Roose is on fiiire.

Raise the Roose!

Roose on the loose.

[fuem]

He still accepted Renlys' bannermen out of pragmatism despite them declaring for his brother. Plus Bolton has not defied Stannis in open combat, and what law has Roose openly broken? It was all the Freys and Ramsey. Roose just picked up the pieces, and looked suspicious by circumstance, no more. What witness could state categorically that they saw him commit any crime? you can't kill someone based on suspicion. This is not upholding the law. The only blatant crime committed was killing Robb- his king, and that was witnessed by noone by LS.

The absence of a POV in Winterfell doesn't suggest anything. It's often used as "evidence" of Stannis winning- which is nonsense. You believe what you want to believe, but I believe the opposite applies. The POV was on the losing side in the RW, the POV (Davos) lost on the blackwater, as did Tyrion on the BW before the non-POV's (Tyrells and Tywin) swept in to win.

Indeed, being recaptured by the Boltons as Stannis' army are defeated around him would be far more interesting from a POV perspective than to tag along to witness an already defeated Winterfell. Talk about bad positioning- it also suggests the non-POV's have something up their sleeves ready to surprise the POV- that could be a good lucky surprise, or it could be a bad surprise. We have already been shown Stannis' plan. What about Roose?

If it implies something mysterious and big may happen in WF off camera for dramatic effect then I still harbour hopes of the following:

"Icy eyed" Roose Bolton brought the Freys up to WF for a purpose. The WW's froze Stannis in deliberately at this exact position by the lake for a purpose. Freys army will go in the lake. Well done Stannis. Victory. The Freys will rise again as frozen reanimated wights. Shit. Roose meanwhile back in ADWD, was indeed worried that the lords would kick off and kill him and the Freys before he could put his master plan into action but winter is nigh, and that situation has diffused itself by sending the Freys and Manderleys off seperatly- he was going to march the whole lot into the lake under Ramseys leadership in one go, but fear that they could all turn on eachother mid battle forced him to separate them.

So just as we, from Theons POV see the undead emerge from the lake, we see Ramsey leading an army of wights headed by the undead lords that had just been betrayed and killed in winterfell- they had been gathered together for that exact purpose- perhaps Roose bolton has magical ice-powers, or perhaps he simply flings open the gates to the WW's who in actual fact aren't prevented from passing a wall that is made of the very ice they can wield, and we all hit out foreheads in wonderment that we ever assumed it would. So anticipating an assasination attempt on Ramsey and Roose, something that has been greatly implied by Mance's presence, the mistrust, the plotting and whispering, and our desire to see the Boltons betrayed: the exact opposite happens- the Boltons betray their own bannermen to the WW's, convert the remaining lords to undead, and pincer-trap Stannis, converting HIS army to undead as well. And so commences TWOW.

Thus POV Theon is the last harrowing witness to the entire north being converted to wights under ice-eyes Bolton-the new king of winter, who had successfully sacrificed all the remaining northmen he hadn't already killed off in the south, having remained faithful to the "old gods- the WW's- and having maintained his ritual of blood sacrifice when all other lords had forgotten to their cost.

LOL wow.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

He still accepted Renlys' bannermen out of pragmatism despite them declaring for his brother. Plus Bolton has not defied Stannis in open combat, and what law has Roose openly broken? It was all the Freys and Ramsey. Roose just picked up the pieces, and looked suspicious by circumstance, no more. What witness could state categorically that they saw him commit any crime? you can't kill someone based on suspicion. This is not upholding the law. The only blatant crime committed was killing Robb- his king, and that was witnessed by noone by LS.

From those who went to the Red Wedding, a few were killed, a few were imprisoned, and Roose Bolton returned a big winner, with Tywin Lannister's kisses all over his face. Why not in chains? That's enough circumstantial evidence to anyone.

We've seen how Westerosi justice works. "Beyond any reasonable doubt" has never been a requirement for an execution. And it's patently obvious that everybody knows Roose is guilty as hell, even if they don't know the details: again, see the Big Bucket Wull's speech (Wull, mind you: an inhabitant of the mountains far, far north, as removed from current events as possible, so if even he knows something, then everybody else knows at least as much).

"There's no proof of Roose's involvement" is an argument which, maybe, would work if Roose was to have a 21st-century style trial. But in the setting of the story - if Stannis can cut off Bolton's head and refuses to do so, he'll simply loose the North a little bit sooner.

[Nittanian]

Roose has a frey wife, he is one of two major northern highborns that returned unschathed from the red wedding with the blackfish being the other. Another giveaway is that he is now lord paramount of the north by the lannisters.

Do you mean someone other than Brynden the Blackfish, a southerner who was at Riverrun during the Red Wedding? To be precise, Roose is the Warden of the North (GRRM has so far only used "Lord Paramount" in reference to the Trident).

1. Umbers - Half are working with him, but only because the Freys have the Greatjon. Also the Smalljon was decapitated by Bolton men at the RW.

Could the Smalljon's killers possibly have been Karstarks, since they are wearing furs? Are Bolton men ever described as wearing fur?

[The Fourth Head]

Well if he cuts off Roose's head, he will lose the Bolton men for a certainty, and that wont win him the crown he needs. To appease the other lords, he could make Manderly his warden of the North and demote Roose to lord of the Dreadfort, but all this is getting ahead of ourselves. It's a hypothetical scenario that will probably never play out. The Northern lords need to find the backbone and the trust that if they rise up, so will their fellow lords, and I don't think Stannis is enough of a reason- not when Roose has hostages and they all fear for their own lives if it backfires. Then there is the high probabililty that Roose has an exit plan if all should go awry. How long was the siege of the Dreadfort? Stannis simply couldn't afford to waste years besieging a lord who was prepared to swear loyalty to him just because the northern lords deeply suspected him of perhaps colluding with the Freys. Why not, in Stannis' shoes, just accept Roose's pledge of fealty, and appease the rest by making someone else warden of the north and giving the lords their pound of flesh in Frey blood instead?

[TallTyrion]

Can we please stop with this whole "conclusive evidence" thing. This is middle age mentality innocent until proven guilty means nothing in this world. It couldn't be more obvious that Bolton betrayed his King. He comes back from the Red Wedding unharmed, with a Frey wife, and as Warden of the North while everyone else is slaughtered or arrested. Furthermore, his army is the only one intact while every other Stark loyalist has been decimated under Bolton's command.

Why wasn't he taken prisoner like every other major Lord attending the wedding? A child could figure this out