Bloodraven, the King

[Lord Ravenstark]

Note: I am not affirming he is the King of Westeros.

Bloodraven, the King. I know it may sound weird and unsettling, so let me explain. I will be brief.

Bloodraven, Brynden Rivers, one of the Great Bastards, former Hand of the King, former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and now a greenseer. During the events of A Dance with Dragons, he now resides in his Weirwood throne, in the cave of the Children of the Forest, at the age of 125.

The whole idea of Bloodraven being king of something started in Heresy, when someone posted a excerpt from A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 31.

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away. A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

She prayed to see the king, the instrument. She was hoping to see Stannis but the first thing she got was a glimpse of Bloodraven, with Bran beside him.

Are Melisandre's visions to be trusted?

I trust in what I see in the fire, not Melisandre's interpretations. The fire shows what is, the reading is left to the reader.

"And if he is king of something, who cares?"

Well, she asked not only for the king but also the instrument. It may mean that Bloodraven isn't in the Ice side but actually in the Fire side. It would make sense when you remember he is not only a Blackwood, he is also a Targaryen. Does it means he is a good guy? Absolutely not. The fire lot may be "well intentioned" in their fight to protect life but Good and Evil are more than just intentions.

Any opinions?

[Hielo y Fuego]

A very interesting theory.

I'm in the camp of those who feel that this whole thing is about a struggle for survival itself. And in that sense, I'm positive that the GoT (and the IT) itself are just a diversion. In the end, once the battle between fire (dragons) and Ice (Others) begins, none of that will matter.

In that sense, I'm positive that BR may see himself as a candidate to rule, once the dust settles (with Bran taking his place as the Greenseer). The only question, IMO, is if this would be a good thing or not.

[Nucky Thompson]

Very nice theory, I like it! What is more interesting, though, is how would have Maester Aemon reacted if he knew that an even more ancient Targaryen king lurked in the far North...

[Frey family reunion]

Very nice theory, I like it! What is more interesting, though, is how would have Maester Aemon reacted if he knew that an even more ancient Targaryen king lurked in the far North...

Remember that not only does Aemon know Bloodraven but they both went up the Wall together.

[Mace Cooterian]

Remember that not only does Aemon know Bloodraven but they both went up the Wall together.

Good point; and if I remember correctly we are never really given any detail about the relationship between Aemon and Brynden once they are at the wall. Come to think of it; we really don't know about their relationship before they arrive at the wall. Aemon, supposedly volunteered; Brynden (Bloodraven) was sent from the Black Cells.

[The King Beyond The Wall]

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere.

That's a quote by Dunk. I believe Bloodraven is much much more interesting than what he just appears to be... But I don't think he's the king (the king is unknown, prophecies could act as motivation for those who follow them, but at the end of the day the king doesn't have to be someone who wields a sword of fire born amongst smoke and salt, I mean anyone born amongst smoke and salt could spend their lives finding a fiery sword which they'd use to proclaim themselves king and sit the iron throne, but that doesn't mean they won't get assassinated on the last page of the last book).

Maybe he (Brynden) controls what these lord of light servants see in their fires?? That's why to one he shows Stannis sometimes, to another he shows Dany, to someone else he could be showing something else entirely. That's why maybe the messages are not only difficult to interpret but are also inconsistent? We know he's a "sorcerer". Maybe he's playing the game of thrones too, while he has been away from the 'world' he has maintained his control/chaos by sending different messages to different people. Since GRRM doesn't believe in God/Gods it'd make sense if a Targaryen such as Brynden is the one who sends visions to these 'priests' in the fire.

Edit: this would have some messed up implications if proven to be true for Bran. But from that description by Dunk... Arya is heading in this direction I believe.

[Lord Ravenstark]

That's a quote by Dunk. I believe Bloodraven is much much more interesting than what he just appears to be... But I don't think he's the king (the king is unknown, prophecies could act as motivation for those who follow them, but at the end of the day the king doesn't have to be someone who wields a sword of fire born amongst smoke and salt, I mean anyone born amongst smoke and salt could spend their lives finding a fiery sword which they'd use to proclaim themselves king and sit the iron throne, but that doesn't mean they won't get assassinated on the last page of the last book).

Maybe he (Brynden) controls what these lord of light servants see in their fires?? That's why to one he shows Stannis sometimes, to another he shows Dany, to someone else he could be showing something else entirely. That's why maybe the messages are not only difficult to interpret but are also inconsistent? We know he's a "sorcerer". Maybe he's playing the game of thrones too, while he has been away from the 'world' he has maintained his control/chaos by sending different messages to different people. Since GRRM doesn't believe in God/Gods it'd make sense if a Targaryen such as Brynden is the one who sends visions to these 'priests' in the fire.

Edit: this would have some messed up implications if proven to be true for Bran. But from that description by Dunk... Arya is heading in this direction I believe.

It was proposed by Black Crow, when he said that the fire "tunes itself to the frequency", like a radio, of the local "magic station". In the North/Westeros, the local magic acknowledges the greenseer as its king. In other words, the fire isn't a direct call to R'hllor but a magic TV.

Very nice theory, I like it! What is more interesting, though, is how would have Maester Aemon reacted if he knew that an even more ancient Targaryen king lurked in the far North...

Very nice theory, I like it! What is more interesting, though, is how would have Maester Aemon reacted if he knew that an even more ancient Targaryen king lurked in the far North...

Remember that not only does Aemon know Bloodraven but they both went up the Wall together.

Good point; and if I remember correctly we are never really given any detail about the relationship between Aemon and Brynden once they are at the wall. Come to think of it; we really don't know about their relationship before they arrive at the wall. Aemon, supposedly volunteered; Brynden (Bloodraven) was sent from the Black Cells.

I was wondering... Maester Aemon knew anything about what Bloodraven was doing when he went North for the last time as Lord Commander? They were both black brothers, relatives... and as Maester, I think Aemon was one of his (BR) most trusted advisors.

But yet... we have not even a single mention of his name. Maybe Aemon swore to take the secret to his tomb? What secret? Did Aemon kept contact with BR?

"How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere."

That crows/ravens can whisper we have no doubt, it was confirmed they can talk the True Tongue. Maesters have lots of ravens.

[The King Beyond The Wall]

The Crows refers to the Crows in the Cave and the ones with ColdHands, they're controlled by Bloodraven.

Edit: It's like the first thing he teaches Bran.

[TheNorthernWarrior]

So Mel is asking to see a King in the fire vision and sees Bloodraven and Bran. Maybe it is Bran that is the King? In fact he is the rightful King in the North and King of Winter.

[Daenor]

It's not that Mel sees or gets whatever she wishes when she's watching the fires.And what she actually asks is a glimpse of Stannis.Instead he sees Bran and Brynden.This could probably mean that against the Great Other these two will play some role while Stannis is practically unimportant.

Also i disagree about Bloodraven commanding the fires and visions.Whatever his past may have been he's a greenseer.This means his magic has to do with his connection to nature.If you've played RPGs ,especially D&D,think of Brynden as an Archdruid and Mel as a Wizard/Priest.

[Lord Ravenstark]

So Mel is asking to see a King in the fire vision and sees Bloodraven and Bran. Maybe it is Bran that is the King? In fact he is the rightful King in the North and King of Winter.

And I agree with you.

Bran may be the King in the North... and all title he have by right but he is still too young.

Bloodraven, however, is in his Weirwood throne. Decades of manipulation, observation. Not only men but also nature and magic. As far as I can see, Bloodraven is the true king, a king who doesn't wear a crown but wields the power.

And there's Bran, with the potential to become even greater than Bloodraven.

[Apple the Great]

So Mel is asking to see a King in the fire vision and sees Bloodraven and Bran. Maybe it is Bran that is the King? In fact he is the rightful King in the North and King of Winter.

:agree: THE KING IN THE NORTH!

[King17]

Bran is not the king of the north he is the king of westeroes

[The Great Cornholio!]

A very interesting theory.

I'm in the camp of those who feel that this whole thing is about a struggle for survival itself. And in that sense, I'm positive that the GoT (and the IT) itself are just a diversion. In the end, once the battle between fire (dragons) and Ice (Others) begins, none of that will matter.

In that sense, I'm positive that BR may see himself as a candidate to rule, once the dust settles (with Bran taking his place as the Greenseer). The only question, IMO, is if this would be a good thing or not.

Dude. Blood Raven is not leaving that cave. He's a near corpse stuck to the roots of a tree.

Furthermore, theres no mention of him being in line to the throne. Ever. Not in the D&E tales, not in ASOIAF. There were a lot of people in line for the Iron Throne before him. A lot.

What I took from that scene is that BR can tap into the knowledge network that Mel access when she looks into the fires. Which leads me to believe that either; they are the same network, are mirrored somehow, or that blood raven can tap into that separate network. This makes me think that all magic/Gods are the same magic/Gods. Just accessed/worshippe in different ways.

[Beorn Snow]

Dude. Blood Raven is not leaving that cave. He's a near corpse stuck to the roots of a tree.

Furthermore, theres no mention of him being in line to the throne. Ever. Not in the D&E tales, not in ASOIAF. There were a lot of people in line for the Iron Throne before him. A lot.

What I took from that scene is that BR can tap into the knowledge network that Mel access when she looks into the fires. Which leads me to believe that either; they are the same network, are mirrored somehow, or that blood raven can tap into that separate network. This makes me think that all magic/Gods are the same magic/Gods. Just accessed/worshippe in different ways.

:agree:

[Balerion the kitten]

An interesting point.

I used to think bloodraven might be championing the other but not anymore.

As we've seen in ASOIAF/AWOIAF, lots of religions had different saviours who stopped the long night. The rhoynar had a hero who managed to get all the gods of the rhoyne to stop their fighting, Yiti had a women with a monkey's tail, Hyrkoon the hero, Neferion, Eldric shadowchaser, azor ahai, yin tar. And of course westeros (who at the time were worshippers of the old gods) had the last hero.

Bloodraven follows the old gods, especially since he's far north with the children of the forest.

Maybe the gods have stopped their bickering and have joined together, realizing this saviour is one.

Explains how the prince and azor ahai are now one.

Perhaps the old gods have now joined, with the last greenseer as the head. He's representing the old gods. That's why when Mel was in the north r'hllor said he was his instrument and king. Cause he's connecting the old gods to the red one.

He's the real "king" in the north because he's the one representing it on behalf of the gods

Pure speculation.