Septa Lemore identity (and why it matters) v.2

[Starspear]

This is v. 2 of the following thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107733-septa-lemore-identity-summary-and-why-it-matters/

a poster on the above link, also provided a link to an earlier thread on the subject for those interested: (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/54083-adwd-spoilers-septa-lemore-part-ii/). I'm unfamiliar with this thread; this v.2 concerns only first link above.

Premise 1: Septa Lemore is an alias for another character of importance. Tyrion's suspicion at such, her birthing stretch marks, and her being part of a group with several fake identities being the markers for suspicion.

Premise 2: as per my original thread. Septa Lemore = Ashara Dayne.

Secondary suggestions: If Lemore is not Ashara, candidates suggested include Tyene Sand's mother.

Motivations for Ashara = Lemore. The caretaking of Aegon. Potential clues as to real heritage of Aegon. Assumption, Ashara would have feigned her death, and carried Aegon to Essos for safe-hiding, and eventual grooming.

Motivations for Tyene's mother = Lemore. Spy for Doran, which assumes that Doran was aware of Aegon's existance several years earlier than ADWD.

The pros and cons are well explored in the first thread. This thread seeks to lock down realistic motivation and timeline.

Feel free to suggest other candidates for Lemore.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't think is Tyene's mother because both Tyene and Arianne know her personally. They have visited her and she's in Westeros.

[Starspear]

I don't think is Tyene's mother because both Tyene and Arianne know her personally. They have visited her and she's in Westeros.

Well, as per my last post. I strongly feel Ashara = Lemore.

Tyene's mother is there to help contrast and compare. Aegon, whether it's Aegon or Faegon is a delicate, discreet matter. It's not clear why she'd be there with loyalties to Dorne. Also, her genes + Oberyn's are tough to explain Tyene's (hair, etc.)

Ashara meanwhile is directly connected to Aegon (via Elia). We also have an escape route for her to Essos. And an enigmatic quote from author.

P.S. Suggested Lemore's that I didn't include because of no evidence include Serra and Mellario.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, last thread I asked to prove why would Ashara do that for Elia? Is there any proof or evidence that they were friends?

[Starspear]

Well, last thread I asked to prove why would Ashara do that for Elia? Is there any proof or evidence that they were friends?

- GRRM SSM:

"I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar."

link: http://www.westeros..../SSM/Entry/1040

[JonCon's Red Beard]

- GRRM SSM:

"I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar."

link: http://www.westeros..../SSM/Entry/1040

You got the link wrong: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

Anyway, you're taking the answer out from his context. What precedes that question are speculations about Jon's birth date and this phrase: "As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time". He's talking about the chances of Ashara being Jon's mother.

The last part, saying that she was Elia's companion meant that she wasn't in Starfall all her life, which he says precisely before, but also, King's Landing. Meaning, her son could have been fathered by someone from there, or someone from another place.

So, it's something like this:

Question: I have my timeline of Jon's birth kinda messed up and Ashara doesn't fit and Catelyn don't see it

Answer: I'll answer that but not now. Ashara wasn't only in Starfall, she travelled places and also, she was in King's Landing with Elia".

Another thing that I kinda imply from that is the comment of "she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar". I think he meant that he was his companion AT FIRST, but not always, and eventually she left. How long will Elia and Rhaegar married? Rhaella was three when she died, so probably, they were together around four years. Maybe Ashara didn't even know Aegon. I think that, after the Tourney of Harrenhal, she returned home or was somewhere else. Maybe her family was looking for a husband for her.

[Starspear]

You got the link wrong: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040/

The link was broken, not wrong. Still entry 1040. But thanks for posting unbroken url.

It's not out of context. You asked if there was anything showing Elia and Ashara were friends. And there is the SSM that says they were companions.

It does not say anything about how shallow or how deep the friendship was. That's open-ended.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's not out of context. You asked if there was anything showing Elia and Ashara were friends. And there is the SSM that says they were companions.

It does not say anything about how shallow or how deep the friendship was. That's open-ended.

Indeed, didn't say they were friends, but it kinda says that they weren't always companions.

[Starspear]

Indeed, didn't say they were friends, but it kinda says that they weren't always companions.

As there is no elaboration in the books, to each his own interpretation.

For the benefit of Lemore = Ashara, and with the motivation of protecting/raising Aegon, the SSM provides at least evidence of companionship between Elia and Ashara.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I don't think is Tyene's mother because both Tyene and Arianne know her personally. They have visited her and she's in Westeros.

Arianne hasn't met Lemore yet. We have no idea about how that is going to go down.

[Bael's Bastard]

Ashara seems to have been a companion to Elia in a similar way that Joanna Lannister and Doran's mother were companions to Rhaella Targaryen. It seems that Joanna and Doran's mother were friends as a result of this, but I am not clear whether it is ever said that Rhaella was also a friend of theirs.

The statement that Ashara was a companion to Elia in the early years of her marriage to Rhaegar also implies that she did not continue to be a companion to her in later years of the marriage, or at least at the end. I am not sure that her being her companion implies friendship necessarily, but I would expect her to at least be trusted to carry out her role.

I don't think it is unlikely that Ashara could be sympathetic or helpful to a child of Elia. But I don't think she was still around KL before they were killed, and I haven't really seen a good case for her to become part of a plot involving Aegon after.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As there is no elaboration in the books, to each his own interpretation.

For the benefit of Lemore = Ashara, and with the motivation of protecting/raising Aegon, the SSM provides at least evidence of companionship between Elia and Ashara.

I agree that friendship could be a motivation but so far, there is no proof. OTC, that Jon was friends with Rhaegar it was a known thing, apparently, unless Varys knew Connington was in love. The motivation wasn't only friendship but love and the desire of revenge. I see Arthur Dayne doing the same for Rhaegar, for instance, but I don't see any other guy who was squire along with Rhaegar doing it only because they once squired together in KL.

[HexMachina]

I agree that friendship could be a motivation but so far, there is no proof. OTC, that Jon was friends with Rhaegar it was a known thing, apparently, unless Varys knew Connington was in love. The motivation wasn't only friendship but love and the desire of revenge. I see Arthur Dayne doing the same for Rhaegar, for instance, but I don't see any other guy who was squire along with Rhaegar doing it only because they once squired together in KL.

The other squire Richard Lonmouth(?) I dont remember why, but I always thought that Jon Connington was resentful that Rhaegar was closer to Arthur and Richard. I'll look for what made me think that

ETA: Without looking for the quotes, the wiki says that Richard Longmouth was a close personal friend of Rhaegar's, as was Myles Mooton (who died in the battle of the bells).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The other squire Richard Lonmouth(?) I dont remember why, but I always thought that Jon Connington was resentful that Rhaegar was closer to Arthur and Richard. I'll look for what made me think that

ETA: Without looking for the quotes, the wiki says that Richard Longmouth was a close personal friend of Rhaegar's, as was Myles Mooton (who died in the battle of the bells).

That I know but still what matters is what moves Jon. Even if Rhaegar ignored him, he still loved him and is trying to crown his son, in the same way that even thought Dany rejected Jorah's proposal and love, he still fights for her.

[nedhed]

We don't have to pin her motivation solely on a hypothetical freidnship with Elia. If we assume R+L=J, then Arthur Dayne, Ned Stark, Lyanna, etc., are all invested in protecting Targ kids. I know this is basically fanfic, but imagine that Lyanna tells Ned about Jon, and also about a scheme to protect Aegon, which involves Ashara. Ned then goes to Starfall, they conspire a bit- she hosts him long enough to let Wyla nurse Jon, Ned explains that Arthur is dead but Aegon lives, and they both go on to make big sacrifices to hide the identity of baby targs. So here Ashara isn't just motivated by affection for Elia, but also her loyalty to her now-dead bro, who was a babytarg protector, and her affection (romantic or not) for Ned. It would basically be like her and ned becoming two sectret members of the Targ kingsgaurd, and she inherited her spot from her bro.

[Bael's Bastard]

That I know but still what matters is what moves Jon. Even if Rhaegar ignored him, he still loved him and is trying to crown his son, in the same way that even thought Dany rejected Jorah's proposal and love, he still fights for her.

I think the notion of Rhaegar and Jon's friendship being more in Jon's mind than real is a figment of the imaginations of some readers. The friendship of Rhaegar and Jon seems to be pretty well established in other people's POvs. Obviously Rhaegar didn't love him the same way he appears to love Rhaegar, but I think the close friendship was there. I understand that you qualified it with "even if," but just giving my two cents.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think the notion of Rhaegar and Jon's friendship being more in Jon's mind than real is a figment of the imaginations of some readers. The friendship of Rhaegar and Jon seems to be pretty well established in other people's POvs. Obviously Rhaegar didn't love him the same way he appears to love Rhaegar, but I think the close friendship was there. I understand that you qualified it with "even if," but just giving my two cents.

Yeah, I think the same. There is few love for JonCon in the fandom, even though Jaime and GRRM himself called him friend of Rhaegar and that's the reason Robert didn't sent for him and distributed his lands among all of his friends according to him. Besides, there are levels in friendship. He probably wasn't his BEST FRIEND, but he still appreciated him.

[Ankou]

Does her identity matter or is it the motion of the barge?

Worst joke of all time, but I'm sticking to it.

[Starspear]

The reason why there is mystery, is that Lemore's identity is questioned by Tyrion, for reasons mentioned in this and previous thread.

Meanwhile, Ashara has popped into the story several times throughout the novel, she too, shrouded in mystery.

As we are nearing the end of the series, loose ends will likely start to be tied up.

The points mentioned in this thread and previous, explain thread's Ashara = Lemore theory. Without the Hitchcock reference, it reverts to the status of a wild guess.

Ashara has though the potential motivation to be with the crew. The connections to Aegon and JonCon. And had potential reasons to be away from Westeros. It fits.

Naturally, if TWOW reveals new details that cancel these suppositions, then theory fizzles.

[OnlyOne]

We don't have to pin her motivation solely on a hypothetical freidnship with Elia. If we assume R+L=J, then Arthur Dayne, Ned Stark, Lyanna, etc., are all invested in protecting Targ kids. I know this is basically fanfic, but imagine that Lyanna tells Ned about Jon, and also about a scheme to protect Aegon, which involves Ashara. Ned then goes to Starfall, they conspire a bit- she hosts him long enough to let Wyla nurse Jon, Ned explains that Arthur is dead but Aegon lives, and they both go on to make big sacrifices to hide the identity of baby targs. So here Ashara isn't just motivated by affection for Elia, but also her loyalty to her now-dead bro, who was a babytarg protector, and her affection (romantic or not) for Ned. It would basically be like her and ned becoming two sectret members of the Targ kingsgaurd, and she inherited her spot from her bro.

Ok, I see your POV. In book one Eddard Stark goes out of his way to make sure her name is never mentioned again at Winterfell. (People were gossiping). Interesting.