Septa Lemore identity (and why it matters) v.2

[Khal Shaggydog]

I think this is a lot better than the Ashara=Howland Reed's wife - at least we have some text to debate back and forth.

Ned Dayne is a huge deal, in terms of unpacking the dual mysteries of Jon Snow and the Dayne household. He is a young squire, and has absolutely NO reason to lie to Arya in their present circumstances. So, again, for him to be so courteous to Ned Starks daughter, when the realm knows that it was Ned Stark who was responsible for the death of the greatest Dayne to live, says something. That is beyond the name thing - but if there was some grand conspiracy between the Daynes and Starks as latent Targ loyalists - wouldn't there be a pretty solid understanding to NOT name someone and obvious name of your otherwise unconnected coconspirator? Like if ned raised Jon Snow as 'Rheagar Snow' - wouldn't that raise unnecessary questions?

[Laniki]

Someone surely had to take care of Aegon when he was a baby or an infant, even after Connington (I don't see him like the kind of man who would change their diapers, nor that he knows how to do that) but there is no indication that it was Lemore.

Let's say it's lemore, for a moment. She took care of Aegon when he was a baby, later, a child of six. Then she disappeared when Aegon was given to JC and reappeared to say "I'm just a septa"? Wouldn't Aegon recognise her? Say something like "oh, is Lemore!"? She could have been her wet nurse, though, and later, called by Varys to teach him about the faith.

That's an interesting possibility. But to me, it's hard to fathom that Lady Dayne acted as a surrogate mother for years then walked away and surrendered control to someone else. She and Connington had known each other in Westeros. He was the King's Hand, her brother was the King's Guard and she was the Queen's Princess Elia's Handmaid. At first, those relationships had me thinking that Ashara could be Lemore. But that passage that took place in the chapter "The Lost Lord" where Connington thinks of Lemore as only Aegon's educator in the Faith challenges the theory of Lemore being Ashara. So the question remains, who would have run away with an infant that was possibly still nursing during the sack of King's Landing aboard a ship (when Lannister's would have attempted to seal the harbor), to Essos and Illyio. We can see that with pre-planning, Littlefinger was able to do so with Sansa. So, it's possible Varys did so with Aegon. It's also just as likely that Varys and Illyrio have deceived everyone associated with Aegon as being Rhaegar's son.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's an interesting possibility. But to me, it's hard to fathom that Lady Dayne acted as a surrogate mother for years then walked away and surrendered control to someone else. She and Connington had known each other in Westeros. He was the King's Hand, her brother was the King's Guard and she was the Queen's Princess Elia's Handmaid. At first, those relationships had me thinking that Ashara could be Lemore. But that passage that took place in the chapter "The Lost Lord" where Connington thinks of Lemore as only Aegon's educator in the Faith challenges the theory of Lemore being Ashara. So the question remains, who would have run away with an infant that was possibly still nursing during the sack of King's Landing aboard a ship (when Lannister's would have attempted to seal the harbor), to Essos and Illyio. We can see that with pre-planning, Littlefinger was able to do so with Sansa. So, it's possible Varys did so with Aegon. It's also just as likely that Varys and Illyrio have deceived everyone associated with Aegon as being Rhaegar's son.

Yes, JonCon is polite with Lemore being just a septa. Then, he would definitely treat Ashara Dayne better if he knew who she really is, a proper lady. And I doubt he doesn't remember Lemore, specially when he met her personally, unless he got amnesia or is a completely moron. Which he's not.

Also, if Lemore is Ashara, and she's a fake septa, wouldn't be easier to make her pass as Aegon's mother, considering they have the same eyes? Instead, Connington and Aegon have to dye both their hair blue and he needs to be clean shaven for years. It's over complicate stuff.

[Laniki]

Yes, JonCon is polite with Lemore being just a septa. Then, he would definitely treat Ashara Dayne better if he knew who she really is, a proper lady. And I doubt he doesn't remember Lemore, specially when he met her personally, unless he got amnesia or is a completely moron. Which he's not.

Also, if Lemore is Ashara, and she's a fake septa, wouldn't be easier to make her pass as Aegon's mother, considering they have the same eyes? Instead, Connington and Aegon have to dye both their hair blue and he needs to be clean shaven for years. It's over complicate stuff.

I agree. The Lost Lord chapter reveals Jon C's and Lemore's relationship with each other as informal and he certainly regards his role with Aegon as superior to hers. So, the original topic is who is Lemore? If not Ashara Dayne then who is she. In that, I'm lost as to who she is. But there's a reason that GRRM has refused to reveal the identity of Duncan the Small's children, or for that matter, who the other brother of Duncan is.

[Starspear]

I agree. The Lost Lord chapter reveals Jon C's and Lemore's relationship with each other as informal and he certainly regards his role with Aegon as superior to hers. So, the original topic is who is Lemore? If not Ashara Dayne then who is she. In that, I'm lost as to who she is. But there's a reason that GRRM has refused to reveal the identity of Duncan the Small's wife, or for that matter, who the other brother of Duncan is.

We know Duncan the Small's wife: Jenny of Oldstones.

Yes, there is an unknown son. Ideas?

[Laniki]

Yes, there is an unknown son. Ideas?

I've got no idea who Aegon V's unknown son could be, who he was married to, where he lived (Westeros or Essos) or anything about his children. The fact that Barristan says that Aegon's sons married for love indicates that there were probably children from the marriages of both Duncan and his unknown brother. After Summerhall, the unknown brother may have fled Westeros fearing for his family. Barristan said the source of Summerhall's tragedy was treason. Perhaps abandoning Westeros was a way to safely continue his family line. That's pure speculation and crackpottery, I know. Until GRRM give's a reveal as to his identity, it's one of the major mysteries of ASoIaF.

[league of blooDraven]

I've got no idea who Aegon V's unknown son could be, who he was married to, where he lived (Westeros or Essos) or anything about his children. The fact that Barristan says that Aegon's sons married for love indicates that there were probably children from the marriages of both Duncan and his unknown brother. After Summerhall, the unknown brother may have fled Westeros fearing for his family. Barristan said the source of Summerhall's tragedy was treason. Perhaps abandoning Westeros was a way to safely continue his family line. That's pure speculation and crackpottery, I know. Until GRRM give's a reveal as to his identity, it's one of the major mysteries of ASoIaF.

An ancestor of howland reed or his wife maybe? Aegon V famously wanted to bring dragons back and was trying at summerhall. Maybe someone associated with the old gods didn't want dragons back. They wanted to maintain balance and dragons don't really play into that.

[Starspear]

I've got no idea who Aegon V's unknown son could be...

It just hit me.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well, last thread I asked to prove why would Ashara do that for Elia? Is there any proof or evidence that they were friends?

I always wandered about this. AFAWK Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting and companion but that doesn't mean that they were friends and that she would threw her life away for a no one. Anne Boleyn was Catherine of Aragon's lady in waiting and I can bet they were BFFE.

[nedhed]

I have to agree that the JonCon bit may sink the Ashara=Lemore battleship. BUT I just watched Vertigo (had never seen it) and the opening sequence features a tight shot of a woman's face tracking from her mouth to her eye; it focuses on the eye which subsequently changes from black and white to color (they appear brown) then to being shot through a red filter. Just saying' . . .

[Laniki]

During the first couple of days on the Shy Maid, Tyrion’s identified that Griff is a knight, but he can’t make out who Lemore is to young Griff. Why does Lemore need to hide her identity? How does she know about the Faith to educate young Griff in its ways?

Chronologically, Ashara Dayne would be in her mid thiry’s (300 – 283 = 17 + 19-years old at the time of RR = 36-years old). Tyrion was born in 274, so he’s 26-years old. Tyrion thinks Lemore is past fourty. Lemore seems to take good care of herself with physical activity (morning swim), so it’s unlikely that Lemore has aged poorly. Tyrion notices that she has stretch marks from giving birth. As she is past fourty, if she had her child while still a teen and only had one child, that child would be in its twenties. If Jon Connington thinks Young Griff is Aegon, then Young Griff must be nearly 18 (RR = 17 years ago + <1 year old baby Aegon). If Young Griff were Lemore’s child, she would have to have had him when she was 23 to 25 years old. We’ve been told that Ashara took her own life possibly due to Ned Stark forsaking her to marry Catelyn. Ned was born in the year 263, 37-years ago. The tourney at Harrenhal was in 281, so Ned was 18-years at the time. Barristan thinks of Ashara “as a young maiden not long at court”. It could be presumed that Ashara was no more than 17 years old at the time of the tourney. Therefore, Ashara shouldn’t be more than 36 –years old if she were still alive. It’s hard to see how an attractive woman that takes pride with her body would age so poorly that Tyrion who is within 10-years of her in age would mistake her to be half a dozen years older than she is.

Lemore is a real puzzle. We don't know if she's hiding her identity from eyes in Essos or Westeros. Her personality is more like that of a woman who's been from privilege than that of a servant. However, JonCon thinks of her only as Aegon's educator and they both consider his position in Aegon's development superior to hers, even though she offers her opinion and council.

[Bael's Bastard]

I agree. The Lost Lord chapter reveals Jon C's and Lemore's relationship with each other as informal and he certainly regards his role with Aegon as superior to hers. So, the original topic is who is Lemore? If not Ashara Dayne then who is she. In that, I'm lost as to who she is. But there's a reason that GRRM has refused to reveal the identity of Duncan the Small's children, or for that matter, who the other brother of Duncan is.

He intends to do the entire lives of Dunk and Egg up to the end (Summerhall), during which a lot of information not revealed in the books so far would be revealed naturally in its time. But IIRC the World book will fill in the identity of Egg's third son, and wives of Egg, Jaehaerys, etc.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I have to agree that the JonCon bit may sink the Ashara=Lemore battleship. BUT I just watched Vertigo (had never seen it) and the opening sequence features a tight shot of a woman's face tracking from her mouth to her eye; it focuses on the eye which subsequently changes from black and white to color (they appear brown) then to being shot through a red filter. Just saying' . . .

I know the Vertigo reference might be tempting but as you said, you have just seen the movie. I haven't (I'm not interested on watching it) and many people haven't either. GRRM might have taken some things from the movie to create Ashara's death but do you actually think that GRRM would simply put the "clues" to Ashara's identity on a movie that not all of his readers have seen and probably don't remember? Whoever is Ashara, if she's alive, the clues are in the books and nowhere else.

I always wandered about this. AFAWK Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting and companion but that doesn't mean that they were friends and that she would threw her life away for a no one. Anne Boleyn was Catherine of Aragon's lady in waiting and I can bet they were BFFE.

Indeed. One of the first things Tyrion thinks is that JC must be a really good friend for simply tossing his life aside in order to put his friend's son on the throne, even though the kid's grandpa exiled him and took his lands away from him. And we know, due to JC's thoughts, that there is two things that move him to to it: 1. he's in love with Rhaegar, 2. His bad decisions during the RR indirectly caused Rhaegar's death. So, his motivations are love, revenge and guilt. Do you see any other of those "young lordlings who gathered around Rhaegar", whoever they were, doing that, now that Rhaegar is dead? doubt it. Of course, few people remembers Elia in the same way they remember Rhaegar and his life. Jaime and Barristan have talked about JC and Rhaegar being close, but Barristan only refers to Ashara as a handmaid of Elia, not a friend. Barristan was able to distinguish the level of friendships between Rhaegar and Arthur and JC and he wasn't even close to the Prince, but apparently, knew nothing of Elia and Ashara. Considering he loved her, he could have paid more attention but he didn't.

[Starspear]

During the first couple of days on the Shy Maid, Tyrion’s identified that Griff is a knight, but he can’t make out who Lemore is to young Griff. Why does Lemore need to hide her identity? How does she know about the Faith to educate young Griff in its ways?

Chronologically, Ashara Dayne would be in her mid thiry’s (300 – 283 = 17 + 19-years old at the time of RR = 36-years old). Tyrion was born in 274, so he’s 26-years old. Tyrion thinks Lemore is past fourty. Lemore seems to take good care of herself with physical activity (morning swim), so it’s unlikely that Lemore has aged poorly. Tyrion notices that she has stretch marks from giving birth. As she is past fourty, if she had her child while still a teen and only had one child, that child would be in its twenties. If Jon Connington thinks Young Griff is Aegon, then Young Griff must be nearly 18 (RR = 17 years ago + <1 year old baby Aegon). If Young Griff were Lemore’s child, she would have to have had him when she was 23 to 25 years old. We’ve been told that Ashara took her own life possibly due to Ned Stark forsaking her to marry Catelyn. Ned was born in the year 263, 37-years ago. The tourney at Harrenhal was in 281, so Ned was 18-years at the time. Barristan thinks of Ashara “as a young maiden not long at court”. It could be presumed that Ashara was no more than 17 years old at the time of the tourney. Therefore, Ashara shouldn’t be more than 36 –years old if she were still alive. It’s hard to see how an attractive woman that takes pride with her body would age so poorly that Tyrion who is within 10-years of her in age would mistake her to be half a dozen years older than she is.

Lemore is a real puzzle. We don't know if she's hiding her identity from eyes in Essos or Westeros. Her personality is more like that of a woman who's been from privilege than that of a servant. However, JonCon thinks of her only as Aegon's educator and they both consider his position in Aegon's development superior to hers, even though she offers her opinion and council.

Good breakdown, but you are putting much faith in Tyrion's age estimation.

And "aging poorly" can very well be a subjective conclusion.

[Starspear]

But IIRC the World book will fill in the identity of Egg's third son, and wives of Egg, Jaehaerys, etc.

Do you have the source for this by chance?

[Laniki]

Good breakdown, but you are putting much faith in Tyrion's age estimation.

To me, from the first introduction of Tyrion at Winterfell in AGoT and throughout his POV's in the other books, he seems more insightful than almost any other character. Barristan thinks of himself to be trained to be observant, but, in just Tyrion chapters 3 & 4 of ADwD, Tyrion has deduced that Griff was once a knight and is actually Jon Connington protecting Aegon VI. That's pretty observant, as Connington's been hiding that identity successfully for 12-years.

Lemore indicates that she's keeping her identity secret. Other than crackpot fantasy speculation, I don't know what her identity is, but I don't think she's Ashara

[Bael's Bastard]

Do you have the source for this by chance?

IIRC Ran confirms it somewhere in the World of Ice and Fire forum, but I don't have a link handy.

[voodooqueen126]

Given that Jon Connington and Ashara Dayne would've been at court at the same time, wouldn't he have recognised her in his POV chapter?

[Starspear]

Given that Jon Connington and Ashara Dayne would've been at court at the same time, wouldn't he have recognised her in his POV chapter?

He calls her Lady, he doesn't call her Septa.

Jon Connington calls all the people on the boat by their aliases.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He calls her Lady, he doesn't call her Septa.

Jon Connington calls all the people on the boat by their aliases.

People also call Melissandre "Lady". It's because it's a formal way to talk to an important woman.