Lady Stoneheart: To catch a Lannister

[RoamingRonin]

So if you bribe someone to do something, you are innocent as long as you didn’t do it yourself, even if you engineered the whole scheme. Really?

He's guilty of being an accomplice but I don't think he broke guest right. He wasn't there.

[Boarsbane]

He's guilty of being an accomplice but I don't think he broke guest right. He wasn't there.

Even if he was it is the Frey's who offered Robb protection and the Frey's who broke it. I don't think even Roose technically broke guest right.

[LordStoneheart]

Oh, so you can decide who you consider a guest. By that logic, Walder Frey had the right not to consider the Starks guests because they broke their vow to him.

Catelyn specifcally asked for bread and salt, and Walder obliged. This was before there was a stain on guest right and they had little reason to suspect something was up. the Freys put on their charade to make it seem as if the northerners were guests, and deceived them. That's not the same as what the BWB did. And yes, you can decide who you consider a guest. I don't recall Walder having a sword across his lap when they showed up.

[sapphire_lion]

He's guilty of being an accomplice but I don't think he broke guest right. He wasn't there.

But if you bribe someone to commit a murder, and they do it, are you merely an accomplice? I mean, you weren't even there when it happened, right?

ETA: OMG. Tywin is much more innocent that I would have ever guessed. He usually had others do his dirty work. I guess it doesn't count if you have someone else do it.

[Pod The Rod]

This thread derailed very quickly.

[LordStoneheart]

This thread derailed very quickly.

You're right. We'll end it here. the Freys destroyed the "sanctity" of guest right, so the BWB denying it is not severe especially when their current leader is a direct victim.

Moving on, I think the BWB will definitely have something going on in Riverrun for Daven's wedding, considering Tom o Sevens is there. I think a Blue Wedding might be in order, Would love to see Catelyn make a public debut here.

[Boarsbane]

Moving on, I think the BWB will definitely have something going on in Riverrun for Daven's wedding, considering Tom o Sevens is there. I think a Blue Wedding might be in order, Would love to see Catelyn make a public debut here.

He'd be a good spy but I don't think he would be good for much else, Emmon brought 300 men with him hold Riverrun.

[LordStoneheart]

He'd be a good spy but I don't think he would be good for much else, Emmon brought 300 men with him hold Riverrun.

yeah in all reality its a little unlikely but I don't believe he's there by accident.

[Boarsbane]

yeah in all reality its a little unlikely but I don't believe he's there by accident.

I don't either, I think he will be a spy. I can't see a Red Wedding repeat with Riverrun garrisoned as well as it is, plus Daven's army possibly camped outside.

[Pod The Rod]

He'd be a good spy but I don't think he would be good for much else, Emmon brought 300 men with him hold Riverrun.

And Robb had 3500 men with him at the Twins. 300 men partying and drinking are going to be easy targets for the BwB, which I'd estimate outnumbers them at least 2 to 1.

Really, the problem facing the BwB at this point is that they have too many easy targets. Which to attack? The convoy taking Edmure and Jeyne Westerling west to CR? The convoy taking the Greatjon, Marq Piper, and others southeast to KL? Daven's wedding? All provide benefits, all are feasible, but they don't have the manpower to pull them all off.

[sapphire_lion]

Catelyn specifcally asked for bread and salt, and Walder obliged. This was before there was a stain on guest right and they had little reason to suspect something was up. the Freys put on their charade to make it seem as if the northerners were guests, and deceived them. That's not the same as what the BWB did. And yes, you can decide who you consider a guest. I don't recall Walder having a sword across his lap when they showed up.

I love how you just make up your own rules. It’s hilarious.

UnCat can simply decide not to honor guest right anymore, even when other innocent people believe guest right is still in effect. That's fair.

UnCat can kidnap these innocent people who have broken bread at one of her bases. That's cool.

UnCat can kidnap them after they've been injured defending the kids she was supposed to protect. That's just.

You know, the kids who were almost raped/slaughtered on her watch, because she/the BWB ran off to do something else.

And this is all honorable because... ummm... the RW changed everything.

Awesome.

[Boarsbane]

And Robb had 3500 men with him at the Twins. 300 men partying and drinking are going to be easy targets for the BwB, which I'd estimate outnumbers them at least 2 to 1.

Really, the problem facing the BwB at this point is that they have too many easy targets. Which to attack? The convoy taking Edmure and Jeyne Westerling west to CR? The convoy taking the Greatjon, Marq Piper, and others southeast to KL? Daven's wedding? All provide benefits, all are feasible, but they don't have the manpower to pull them all off.

The difference is the Twins were controlled by the Freys and Robb was inside and separated from his army. Emmon brought his own garrison and all bets are off now, Daven and the Freys aren't going to be so comfortable and unsuspecting as Robb was.

[LordStoneheart]

I love how you just make up your own rules. It’s hilarious.

UnCat Lady Stoneheart can simply decide not to honor guest right anymore, even when other innocent people believe guest right is still in effect. That's fair.

UnCat Lady Stoneheart can kidnap these innocent people who have broken bread at one of her bases. That's cool.

UnCat Lady Stoneheart can kidnap them after they've been injured defending the kids she was supposed to protect. That's just.

You know, the kids who were almost raped/slaughtered on her watch, because she/the BWB ran off to do something else.

And this is all honorable because... ummm... the RW changed everything.

Awesome.

oh don't even. I've never claimed my Lady is honorable. I never claimed she is doing "good." I said the aftermath of the RW pretty much broke the concept of guest right to the point where many people across the realm are uncertain of it anymore. I said the BWB are not acknowledging it because of this. I said that Stoneheart is a direct victim of breaking guest right, which is why she is not practicing it anymore. It didn't save her, so why should she? But sure, straw man away.

[Pod The Rod]

The difference is the Twins were controlled by the Freys and Robb was inside and separated from his army. Emmon brought his own garrison and all bets are off now, Daven and the Freys aren't going to be so comfortable and unsuspecting as Robb was.

Aren't they? As far as they know, there's nothing that can really threaten them. The BwB? They're just scruffy outlaws who wouldn't dare attack real sold*gets shot by Anguy*

[Minstral]

The difference is the Twins were controlled by the Freys and Robb was inside and separated from his army. Emmon brought his own garrison and all bets are off now, Daven and the Freys aren't going to be so comfortable and unsuspecting as Robb was.

For them the war is practically over, and they have a chance to celebrate their efforts/gains. And its a garrison that Jaime leaves Emmon, its not his. Moreover, considering the peasants remaining at Riverrun have a new strange lord they have no reason to like (a scion of a House that the Faith has all but named as cursed) there is a lot of room for his new garrison to be taken unawares.

[Boarsbane]

Aren't they? As far as they know, there's nothing that can really threaten them. The BwB? They're just scruffy outlaws who wouldn't dare attack real sold*gets shot by Anguy*

Some of them might not be worried, but I don't think Emmon is one of them. The garrison he brought was already excess and after hearing about Ryman getting ambushed I imagine he is even more worried.

[sapphire_lion]

oh don't even.

Oh Girl! You are so sassy.

I never claimed she is doing "good." I said the aftermath of the RW pretty much broke the concept of guest right to the point where many people across the realm are uncertain of it anymore. I said the BWB are not acknowledging it because of this. I said that Stoneheart is a direct victim of breaking guest right, which is why she is not practicing it anymore. But sure, straw man away.

You claimed that UnCat never broke guest right, then you said she is denying the custom because [insert pathetic excuse here].

UnCat has no authority to simply refuse to recognize guest right, regardless of what happened to her. She is mirroring Walder Frey’s behavior. That’s just not good.

[Boarsbane]

For them the war is practically over, and they have a chance to celebrate their efforts/gains. And its a garrison that Jaime leaves Emmon, its not his. Moreover, considering the peasants remaining at Riverrun have a new strange lord they have no reason to like (a scion of a House that the Faith has all but named as cursed) there is a lot of room for his new garrison to be taken unawares.

They are going celebrate while Freys are being hunted down and hanged by the Brotherhood? Sorry, I don't buy it.

[Pod The Rod]

For them the war is practically over, and they have a chance to celebrate their efforts/gains. And its a garrison that Jaime leaves Emmon, its not his. Moreover, considering the peasants remaining at Riverrun have a new strange lord they have no reason to like (a scion of a House that the Faith has all but named as cursed) there is a lot of room for his new garrison to be taken unawares.

:agree:

All in all, what I would do at this point if I were UnCat really depends on what my goals are.

If I just want to kill some Freys and Lannisters for petty revenge, I crash the wedding. Big, fat, unsuspecting, vulnerable target.

If I want to help restore the Kingdom of North and Trident, I try to ambush the convoy carrying the Red Wedding prisoners. Those hostages are all that's preventing the riverlords and northmen from rising up once more in open revolt. Free them, and the war's back on.

If I want to help out family, I try to spring my brother and my daughter in law before they can cross into the Westerlands.

The key is that the BwB is going to have to choose. They have three golden opportunities sitting in front of them, but they don't have the manpower to grab them all. The most they could conceivably do is two, and that'd be pushing it. UnCat is going to have to make a hard choice about how to use her limited resources here.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

And Robb had 3500 men with him at the Twins. 300 men partying and drinking are going to be easy targets for the BwB, which I'd estimate outnumbers them at least 2 to 1.

Really, the problem facing the BwB at this point is that they have too many easy targets. Which to attack? The convoy taking Edmure and Jeyne Westerling west to CR? The convoy taking the Greatjon, Marq Piper, and others southeast to KL? Daven's wedding? All provide benefits, all are feasible, but they don't have the manpower to pull them all off.

Too many ripe plums. Not sure which to eat.