Lady Stoneheart: To catch a Lannister

[Good Guy Garlan]

When it comes to vengeance, I say go big or go home. The best vengeance Lady S could orchestrate would be restoring Robb's kingdom, and for that she needs Edmure and Jeyne Westerling. The former gives her Riverrun once more and rouses other Tully loyalists, and with the latter someone can pull an Ossifer Plumm, get the girl pregnant and claim the baby is Robb's son and the King in the North.

The way I'd do it would be to infiltrate the group taking Edmure and Jeyne to the West. And there's this seemingly insignificant detail in aFfC when Jaime hangs some outlaws he finds in the Riverlands. One of them is wearing a Lannister uniform and Jaime assumes he was just a Lannister soldier that turned outlaw, but what if that's a hint that the Brotherhood stole Lannister colors to infiltrate their army?

When the convoy arrives at the Golden Tooth to rest, that's where I'd attack, maybe when the castle sleeps. If they can free the hostages and take the castle it would a huge, huge victory. Borderline impossible, yeah, but imagine the impact it would have. It would draw the attention to the Lannisters to the West, clearing the way for the Red Wedding: Riverrun Edition.

I'd take all sorts of hostages from that wedding to exchange for the prisoners at the Twins, and voila! Just like that war kicks off over again

[Pod The Rod]

Too many ripe plums. Not sure which to eat.

Exactly.

Edit: I like the idea of storming the Golden Tooth in the middle of the night, but all in all, Edmure and Jeyne are probably the least valuable and most heavily guarded of the three options facing LS at this point. The far better course to lay the foundations for restoring Robb's kingdom are liberating the Greatjon, Marq Piper et al from their own convoy. Look at the map. The road from the Twins to KL is much longer than the one from RR to CR, and it runs right through the heart of the Riverlands, the BwB's home turf. Liberating those hostages instantly removes the one check on the riverlords and northmen, without having to spend the limited manpower of the Brotherhood storming a castle, a task for which it's singularly ill suited.

[LordStoneheart]

You claimed that UnCat never broke guest right, then you said she is denying the custom because the custom of guest right was badly damaged, possibly irreparably, by the Freys when they disguised their intentions.

UnCat has no authority to simply refuse to recognize guest right, regardless of what happened to her. She is mirroring Walder Frey’s behavior. That’s just not good.

I'd much rather be sassy than wrong. If you refuse to see the big picture involved in this issue I can't help you, but it's very evident that Lady Stoneheart is not acknowledging or offering guest right, and cannot then break guest right. Can't break something if it's not there. Guest right is refused by Robb when Tyrion comes back to Winterfell. That does not mean he broke it. He did not consider Tyrion a guest. Nor did the BWB consider Brienne or any of the others guests when they executed them. If Lady Stoneheart has a place to "host" others, she has the right to refuse their status as guests or not. And coming into an enemy camp with an enemy squire and and enemy squire and an enemy sword has unfortunately sent all the wrong messages, none of them being "I'm a guest."

[LordStoneheart]

When it comes to vengeance, I say go big or go home.

Love this quote. :agree:

[sapphire_lion]

I'd much rather be sassy than wrong.

In your case, you are both. ;)

but it's very evident that Lady Stoneheart is not acknowledging or offering guest right, and cannot then break guest right. Can't break something if it's not there. Guest right is refused by Robb when Tyrion comes back to Winterfell. That does not mean he broke it. He did not consider Tyrion a guest. Nor did the BWB consider Brienne or any of the others guests when they executed them. If Lady Stoneheart has a place to "host" others, she has the right to refuse their status as guests or not. And coming into an enemy camp with an enemy squire and and enemy squire and an enemy sword has unfortunately sent all the wrong messages, none of them being "I'm a guest."

If Tyrion had been taken into Winterfell, and he had eaten there in good faith, and then Robb had shown up and decided that Tyrion did not have guest right, and then had proceeded to hang Tyrion, Robb would have been breaking guest right.

The fact that Walder Frey broke guest right with Cat, does not give UnCat the right to inflict the same transgression onto someone else.

The Crossroads Inn is a base for the BWB. Anyone who eats there is eating at UnCat’s table. And UnCat is murdering people who have broken bread at the Crossroads Inn (her table). Ipso facto, she is breaking guest right. All the spin and loopholes in the world don’t change that.

Your silly "big picture" justifications, while amusing, don’t cut it.

[Cloud]

If Tyrion had been taken into Winterfell, and he had eaten there in good faith, and then Robb had shown up and decided that Tyrion did not have guest right, and then had proceeded to hang Tyrion, Robb would have been breaking guest right.

The fact that Walder Frey broke guest right with Cat, does not give UnCat the right to inflict the same transgression onto someone else.

The Crossroads Inn is a base for the BWB. Anyone who eats there is eating at UnCat’s table. And UnCat is murdering people who have broken bread at the Crossroads Inn (her table). Ipso facto, she is breaking guest right. All the spin and loopholes in the world don’t change that.

Your silly "big picture" justifications, while amusing, don’t cut it.

:agree: I've been here long enough to be sick of the excuses he makes for LS.

[Fire Eater]

I think the best opportunity would the RW 2.0 at Riverrun. The servants and smallfolk at Riverrun would likely cooperate as they had served the Tullys their whole lives and remember Edmure who sheltered them in his castle during battle when most lords who have closed the gates. Emmon has only been at Riverrun for a few months, and doesn't inspire loyalty. The smallfolk also see Emmon sitting his seat as his reward for the RW, with Frey having become a dirty household name.

It would be during Daven's wedding where everyone will be distracted and drunk. Walder Frey would be there as he has shown with how he treated Robb and Cat's bodies, he likes to humiliate his enemies. He would be holding a wedding for his kin at a castle that belonged the Tullys that now belongs to his son. Like at the RW, the killing would commence during the bedding, Tom O'Sevens would start playing "Wolf in the Night" which commemorates Robb's victory at Oxcross. The men of the garrison could be made drunk, and then surprised by the BwB. UnCat would reveal herself to everyone's horror. Most of the highborn Freys and Lannisters she will hang, except Lord Walder. UnCat will make him apologize for the RW first, and then make him die screaming.

Catelyn would gladly have spitted the querulous old man and roasted him over a fire

Strongboar noted that the Frey men hanged with crabapples in their mouths were trussed up like pigs. I think Walder will die roasting on a spit like a pig.

[Theda Baratheon]

I see a possibly third wedding bloodbath, but this time with wolves.

[Pod The Rod]

I think the best opportunity would the RW 2.0 at Riverrun. The servants and smallfolk at Riverrun would likely cooperate as they had served the Tullys their whole lives and remember Edmure who sheltered them in his castle during battle when most lords who have closed the gates. Emmon has only been at Riverrun for a few months, and doesn't inspire loyalty. The smallfolk also see Emmon sitting his seat as his reward for the RW, with Frey having become a dirty household name.

It would be during Daven's wedding where everyone will be distracted and drunk. Walder Frey would be there as he has shown with how he treated Robb and Cat's bodies, he likes to humiliate his enemies. He would be holding a wedding for his kin at a castle that belonged the Tullys that now belongs to his son. Like at the RW, the killing would commence during the bedding, Tom O'Sevens would start playing "Wolf in the Night" which commemorates Robb's victory at Oxcross. The men of the garrison could be made drunk, and then surprised by the BwB. UnCat would reveal herself to everyone's horror. Most of the highborn Freys and Lannisters she will hang, except Lord Walder. UnCat will make him apologize for the RW first, and then make him die screaming.

Catelyn would gladly have spitted the querulous old man and roasted him over a fire

Strongboar noted that the Frey men hanged with crabapples in their mouths were trussed up like pigs. I think Walder will die roasting on a spit like a pig.

This is absolutely how I think it would go down, if it were to go down. But as I've stated before, I think the best course depends on what Cat wants. Just want to kill a lot of Freys and Lannisters? Fine, attack the wedding. Want to revive the Kingdom of North and Trident? Spring the RW prisoners before they get to KL.

[Mithras]

I agree with RiWerrun 2.0. I think Brynden Tully never left the Riverrun. He is hiding in a secret place in the castle just like Bael the Bard did in Winterfell. He is a Tully and if there is such a place in Riverrun, he is the one who should know that. He and Tom might work from inside to organize the servants. The household servants would not listen to Tom if he is alone. But with Blackfish on the charge, they can do anything he commands.

[Fire Eater]

I agree with RiWerrun 2.0. I think Brynden Tully never left the Riverrun. He is hiding in a secret place in the castle just like Bael the Bard did in Winterfell. He is a Tully and if there is such a place in Riverrun, he is the one who should know that. He and Tom might work from inside to organize the servants. The household servants would not listen to Tom if he is alone. But with Blackfish on the charge, they can do anything he commands.

I would were it not for this:

"After the trouble Ser Brynden took to leave us, I doubt he'll come skulking back." Unless it is at the head of a band of outlaws.

The BF may link up with the BwB, and help to retake Riverrun, but I think he would be shocked at what his niece does, and grow a bit disillusioned.

[Kienn]

Catelyn specifcally asked for bread and salt, and Walder obliged. This was before there was a stain on guest right and they had little reason to suspect something was up. the Freys put on their charade to make it seem as if the northerners were guests, and deceived them. That's not the same as what the BWB did. And yes, you can decide who you consider a guest. I don't recall Walder having a sword across his lap when they showed up.

Walder said mayhaps, so he didn't break guest right - not his fault Catelyn didn't catch him.

[jon stark I]

First of all I never heard a guest right by proxy kind of thing.Brienne was Gendry and Meribalds guest not LSs.If your allies say someone is their guest you are not the host your allies are.And just as someone else pointed it out LS is not the host she is simply attacking a target.Also by breaking the guest right Freys, Lannister and even Boltons are heretics in the eyes of men so they can't demand guest right anymore because they showed everyone they don't care about it or value it or need it.

[Mad Monkey]

I'd much rather be sassy than wrong. If you refuse to see the big picture involved in this issue I can't help you, but it's very evident that Lady Stoneheart is not acknowledging or offering guest right, and cannot then break guest right. Can't break something if it's not there. Guest right is refused by Robb when Tyrion comes back to Winterfell. That does not mean he broke it. He did not consider Tyrion a guest. Nor did the BWB consider Brienne or any of the others guests when they executed them. If Lady Stoneheart has a place to "host" others, she has the right to refuse their status as guests or not. And coming into an enemy camp with an enemy squire and and enemy squire and an enemy sword has unfortunately sent all the wrong messages, none of them being "I'm a guest."

My understanding was that when Robb refused guest right he had to do so by having his sword across his lap and also by not offering Tyrion bread and salt. He couldn't feed Tyrion, give him a bed, then creep into his room at midnight and stab him in the throat with the excuse of, "well, I don't consider him a guest," Guest right as a tradition is meant to be open and forthright -- you either explicitly offer it to someone or you explicitly deny it to them. There's really no room to be sneaky with it; there's no, "well, technically in my head I don't think of you as a guest, so even though I gave you my bread and salt I didn't really mean it..."

That being said, I don't think that Lady Stoneheart was ever Brienne's host. It is likely that she has broken guest right before based on the wording that the brotherhood uses but it didn't take place in this instance.

[sapphire_lion]

First of all I never heard a guest right by proxy kind of thing.Brienne was Gendry and Meribalds guest not LSs.If your allies say someone is their guest you are not the host your allies are.And just as someone else pointed it out LS is not the host she is simply attacking a target.

First of all, Cat vowed to give guest right to Brienne indefinitely.

“I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor.”

-ASOS

The Crossroads Inn is a base of the brotherhood. Stoneheart is the leader of the brotherhood. The people who eat at the Crossroads Inn, are eating at her table. Stoneheart has broken guest right with other travelers as well. They ate at her table and believed they had guest right. She hanged them.

Also by breaking the guest right Freys, Lannister and even Boltons are heretics in the eyes of men so they can't demand guest right anymore because they showed everyone they don't care about it or value it or need it.

This excuse goes under the heading, “they did it, so I can too.”

It’s the type of excuse a small child would make. And as I would tell any small child, two wrongs don’t make a right.

[LordStoneheart]

First of all, Cat vowed to give guest right to Brienne indefinitely.

The Crossroads Inn is a base of the brotherhood. Stoneheart is the leader of the brotherhood. The people who eat at the Crossroads Inn, are eating at her table. Stoneheart has broken guest right with other travelers as well. They ate at her table and believed they had guest right. She hanged them.

This excuse goes under the heading, “they did it, so I can too.”

It’s the type of excuse a small child would make. And as I would tell any small child, two wrongs don’t make a right.

Cat has no way of knowing Brienne has been true to her, and in fact has every reason to think the opposite. If Brienne is a traitor, Cat has no obligation to uphold her end of their agreement.

the Inn is merely connected with the Brotherhood, it is not the base. Otherwise, Brienne would wake up in the Inn, not in Hollow Hill.

So? The enemy has proven they will not fight fair in this war so Catelyn will not either. They're not about setting anything right, they're about getting vengeance on those who wronged her and her family. If the Lannisters, Boltons, and Freys will not fight the war with the customs of men, Lady Stoneheart does not need to either.

[IRON BANK]

How does that make Lady Stoneheart right? She's just asking someone else to break guest right for her, like Tywin Lannister.

the right and wrong lol! this is about northern vengeance and I for one support it! King in the north!

[LordStoneheart]

the right and wrong lol! this is about northern vengeance and I for one support it! King in the north!

In the name of the King in the North... but Lady Stoneheart is my true Queen.

Queen of the Damned.

Hang them all, Stoneheart. Hang them all.

[sapphire_lion]

Cat has no way of knowing Brienne has been true to her, and in fact has every reason to think the opposite. If Brienne is a traitor, Cat has no obligation to uphold her end of their agreement.

UnCat broke Catelyn's vow. She is the true oathbreaker. Your excuses do not change that fact.

And by your logic, Brienne has no obligation to up hold her end now, since UnCat broke the oath Cat made to her.

the Inn is merely connected with the Brotherhood, it is not the base. Otherwise, Brienne would wake up in the Inn, not in Hollow Hill.

BS. The Inn is their base. A place where they lure travelers, feed them, and then murder them. Thus, breaking guest right.

Hence, guest right no longer meaning what it used to.

It’s low to behave like a Frey. It’s low to inflict suffering on innocent and faithful allies the way UnCat has done. A pity she wasn't able to learn from the mistakes she made in her life. She’s jumping to erroneous conclusions and wrongfully accusing people all over again.

[LordStoneheart]

UnCat broke Catelyn's vow. She is the true oathbreaker. Your excuses do not change that fact.

And by your logic, Brienne has no obligation to up hold her end now, since UnCat broke the oath Cat made to her.

Of course she doesn't. But she's claiming she is while the evidence says different. It's not an excuse. It's analyzing the text, something you don't seem to grasp. All the evidence points to Brienne being a Lannister ally, which would be breaking Catelyn's oath first.

BS. The Inn is their base. A place where they lure travelers, feed them, and then murder them. Thus, breaking guest right.

Hence, guest right no longer meaning what it used to.

It’s low to behave like a Frey. It’s low to inflict suffering on innocent and faithful allies the way UnCat has done. A pity she wasn't able to learn from the mistakes she made in her life. She’s jumping to erroneous conclusions and wrongfully accusing people all over again.

No, Hollow Hill is their base just as it was in Storm. They may lure guests there, but that is not their real operating place. I don't know how that isn't clear.

Guest right is no longer what it used to be because the Freys broke it. Not just at the wedding, but they broke the tradition all across Westeros, elsewise we wouldn't be hearing about it from all over the realm.

Catelyn has learned from her mistake, which is why she's not trusting Brienne solely on her word, and that's completely the right call. Words are wind, and Brienne's explanation is flimsier than a Yunkish slave's cock.