The cinematography/style of this show drives me crazy (only TV spoiler)

[Bridgeburners]

In reading this thread in it's entirety, I can safely say that not one person making complaints here has any idea what cinematography actually means. Like, at all. Wikipedia/Google is your friend if it's not your area of expertise either.

I think the word you want is "direction" and as an aside, the directors who work on GoT are some of the most acclaimed working in television today (and participate in some of the shows that are mentioned here that can do no wrong) so you aren't going to get any better in terms of craftsmen.

I don't get it... a major part of my problem, as I have stated, is the way the camera zooms on people's facial reactions in order to show you how dramatic things are. Isn't the motion of cameras part of cinematography?

I don't even know if I'm supposed to respond to this, since you were being super safe by making vague allusions to whom you are responding, which was completely open to interpretation. But since I am on the general stance that you argue against, I suppose I should weigh in.

I'm certainly no expert in film direction, in fact I'm not much of an artist by a long shot. But art is entirely subjective, isn't it? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I made it pretty clear that my frustration with the show is entirely personal, and that all the camera angle and soundtrack techniques are frustrating me in particular. I don't think a massively dramatic scene justifies massively forceful cinematic techniques. I do think it takes away from the scene. I would have favoured the trial scene if it didn't have a musical crescendo at the trial by combat request, and a series of zooms on important characters' facial reactions followed by the cartoonish face-off between Tyrion and Tywin. I agree that that was one of the best scenes in the show, and I give that credit entirely to GRRM, none to D&D. You ask if I would have felt the impact as much if they didn't have those, (in my opinion) forceful techniques? Well it was also one of my favourite and most memorable scenes from the book, and in fact, I thought it was far better in the book than the show, so my answer is yes, absolutely. Those techniques made it feel more like a cartoon than a scene of actual humans interacting, and it completely removed the immersion for me.

Let me counter you now, with your question. Look at the clip I posted from The Wire, which encompasses one of the most important speeches in the show. Do you think the scene would have been enhanced by background music, coming to a crescendo when Colvin states that the drug war ruined this job? Do you think it would have been enhanced by a powerful zoom into his face and then Carver's when he made one of his most salient points? Or if they shut out the background office sounds and made everything revolve around the two?

[DaveyJoe]

^^ Welcome to the forums. You'll seen realize that this message board has people who hate the show because it's not the books, and jump at any opportunity to tear it down. The nitpicking becomes more extreme as the show grows more popular. The latest argument that the direction is bland because the show isn't as sterile as a Stanley Kubrick film is amusing.

[Konradsmith]

Of course it was necessary to have reaction shots in the trial scene. People would have complained if there weren't any, probably some of the same people complaining here. Also the choice to have reaction shots from the principle characters is not the DP's its the Director's. Of course Sakharov was once the show's DP (back in season 1).

But to say it should be shot more like the Wire which has more a documentary feel to it and has a simple televisual look, doesn't make any sense. The trial scene was meant to be an operatic moment about the drama within a family, not a moment where characters speak aloud David Simon's analysis about the U.S.

[DaveyJoe]

The Wire and GoT are not comparable. The Wire used a documentary style that used no background music at all, aside from the montage at the end of each season. The other is a fantasy epic. The Wire is in my opinion the best show ever produced, and it was completely unique in its verisimilitude. No show can really compare, but that doesn't mean GoT has poor direction because it's not shot like The Wire. The style of filming that the Wire used would not work for GoT.

[Night King]

Let me counter you now, with your question. Look at the clip I posted from The Wire, which encompasses one of the most important speeches in the show. Do you think the scene would have been enhanced by background music, coming to a crescendo when Colvin states that the drug war ruined this job? Do you think it would have been enhanced by a powerful zoom into his face and then Carver's when he made one of his most salient points? Or if they shut out the background office sounds and made everything revolve around the two?

That's a fair point, but they're different scenes. They're both important (I haven't watched The Wire, so I'll take your word that it's important to the narrative) but the scene appears to be a intimate conversation between two people in a small room. Tyrion's trial scene is set in a massive throne room with nearly half of the main cast present, complete with a huge crowd of people that shows the arguably main protagonist of the show releasing years of pent up rage and hatred against everyone and also serves as a big turning point for the Lannisters. It's a dramatic and big set piece (in terms of actual size and importance to the story), as opposed to an intimate and private conversation between two people in a small room. If the scene in The Wire used powerful zooms, dramatic background music- I agree, it'd feel out of place. I just feel the cinematic techniques used in Tyrion's trial scene fit perfectly. If one-on-one conversation scenes in Game of Thrones begin to use exaggerated and dramatic cinematic techniques, I'll agree with you. But moments like Tyrion's trial need to be dramatic and exaggerated, because it's not a subtle or intimate moment. Completely my opinion though and I understand where you're coming from. :)

[Konradsmith]

^Great second post. And right on the money again.

[Night King]

^^ Welcome to the forums. You'll seen realize that this message board has people who hate the show because it's not the books, and jump at any opportunity to tear it down. The nitpicking becomes more extreme as the show grows more popular. The latest argument that the direction is bland because the show isn't as sterile as a Stanley Kubrick film is amusing.

Thanks :) Been a long time lurker and yeah, I've seen those kinds of people. Sometimes, the nitpicking is justified but I thought I'd get involved in this thread because it seemed as GoT was being criticized for implementing basic cinematic techniques, which I thought was crazy.

^Great second post. And right on the money again.

Cheers :)

[Ser Blake]

The bitching and moaning on this forum is getting out of hand. All of the top threads on the General GoT section are people complaining about the show. And the sad part is its the same 10 people on every single thread. Discussing an occasional quip you have is one thing, but when you're entire presence on the forum is centered around saying how terrible the show is then its a problem. You bring the entire mood of the forum down and drown out all productive discussion with your shouting. If you hate every single aspect of the show but love the books then just stick to the book forums. I'm sure you would be happier and the rest of us would as well.

I personally felt the directing in this scene was extremely effective. Ultimately the scene is about the Lannister family dynamic, so focusing on them and their reactions makes both logical and dramatic sense. For me and several others, the camera work and directing added to the power and atmosphere of the scene and made it one of my favorite in the entire series. Just because something isn't to you're liking doesn't make it bad.

Just because the Wire is a phenomenal show and a critical success doesn't mean that every show should copy its techniques. GoT and the Wire are two completely different beasts. I wouldn't compare Lotr/Star wars to The Godfather/Citizen Kane.

[Bridgeburners]

I don't expect GoT to use the same direction style as The Wire. As I said in my OP, I put the two up there to show the stark contrast. One scene just felt a hell of a lot more real (IMO) than the other. I don't fault directors for using background music or zooms (which they did in the Wire scene btw), but these should be supplementary or tertiary effects. There are plenty of times in GoT where I feel like they use these techniques to try and lead the drama. Again, this is a personal thing for me. It takes the immersion of the scene away for me. I don't fault others for feeling differently, but I can see that I'm not alone in this thought. Those who criticize my criticism of this, don't you think it's just possible that they're overdoing it a little? That they can tone down on the dramatic zooming and music for some of the scenes, to let the actual words take the spot light?

And hey, if you're talking about the music complementing the significance of the scene... what the hell was up with the timing anyway? It seemed to suggest that Tyrion requesting a trial by combat was the most dramatic part of the trial. Who even buys that? It's a completely natural thing to do in 7K law if you are convinced that you're going to be found guilty by ordinary trial anyway. How was that a shocking moment at all?

I also find it unfair when people meld all the "complainers" in one big pool. It completely trivializes the notion of criticism. I don't think I'm just going with some sort of flow or trend, or trying to be a book snob or anything. I genuinely love the show, but these feelings I have and are expressing are real, and were completely real when I watched the last episode. Some of these responses are making it as if I didn't create this thought independently or on any sound basis, but am doing this entirely superficially, and I resent that notion.

[Frey Pies]

And hey, if you're talking about the music complementing the significance of the scene... what the hell was up with the timing anyway? It seemed to suggest that Tyrion requesting a trial by combat was the most dramatic part of the trial. Who even buys that? It's a completely natural thing to do in 7K law if you are convinced that you're going to be found guilty by ordinary trial anyway. How was that a shocking moment at all?

I also find it unfair when people meld all the "complainers" in one big pool. It completely trivializes the notion of criticism. I don't think I'm just going with some sort of flow or trend, or trying to be a book snob or anything. I genuinely love the show, but these feelings I have and are expressing are real, and were completely real when I watched the last episode. Some of these responses are making it as if I didn't create this thought independently or on any sound basis, but am doing this entirely superficially, and I resent that notion.

Seems to me that the reason you didn't like the scene that much in particular is simply because you don't like the use of a lot of music (deduced from your love for BB and The Wire) and dramatism. However, that doesn't mean that that's bad- it's simply an artistic choice the director/ cinematographer/ showrunners, etc made, which, in my opinion was very effective in that scene. Being subtle is not always better, especially not in scenes like that. I don't get your problem with when it started- the trial by combat WAS the most important part of trial, as it was the moment when Tyrion decided to take fate into his own hands and not let it be dictated by his father. Also, would you rather have had the crescendo happen when Tyrion was speaking? Because that would have completely undermined the raw power of his words.

Finally, I don't get your problem with the show, and that it being too heavy handed. Their are plenty of scenes that are subtly shot when necessary, such as the excellent Brienne/Jaime bath scene.

[Konradsmith]

Exactly. The trial is a scene that is made to be played and shot and scored big. It is not a subtle scene, nor should it be.

[Ignorant Bog Woman]

Funny, since you clearly have no idea what a slash means...

And you just cemented yourself as someone who is a waste of time to argue with. Attacking an irrelevant detail in a user's post instead of what he was actually getting at.

[It's Not That Littlefinger]

Miodrag, on 15 May 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

In all honesty, GOT was never remarkable in those technical aspects OP's talking about. Some mistakes can be attributed to early sloppiness that can be somewhat understandable; for example, the scene of Ned’s arrest, when he meets with Littlefinger and Varys before entering The Throne Room, camera cuts from his face to their faces; if you look at the shots of Ned’s face, you’ll see they’re placed out of order (go to 0:30 mark):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8afaQFLSTH4

But OK, let’s say it was the first season, and they were inexperienced and in a hurry. However, the last episode suggests the editing didn’t improve at all. Something’s very wrong in Ramsay/Yara showdown (in technical aspect; as for writing, everything’s wrong there, but let’s leave that aside here): at one moment, Ramsay’s making love with a girl, and next time we see him, he’s all covered in blood, but no explanation is given. In other threads, few posters speculated some material was cut from there for god knows what reason, and a shot from the trailer (girl slapping Ramsay) really isn’t there in the final version. In every case, something important happened to Ramsay of-screen.

Then there’s the Red Wedding scene. As noticed last year, everything was staged too obviously. There was no chaos that would inevitably ensue, which would give the scene a far more realistic tone. It looked like all the Northerners were lined up for the moment each of them is to be slaughtered. And then, the worst part in my opinion: the music! Not the in-scene music, but soundtrack. Not only that it’s overly suggestive/manipulative, just like during Tyrion’s speech at the trial, but it’s also too loud: it would be more effective to hear people screaming and the steel clanking, without any soundtrack in the background. But, the soundtrack is generally and vastly overused in the show. It’s not about the musical themes themselves, I happen to enjoy them very much on their own, but they’re used too frequently and too manipulatively all the time. One of the best directed episodes in the show was the third episode of the second season, where director Alik Sakharov used the music only in the scenes with little or no dialogue in them – strange enough, the same guy directed the last episode, where he’s done exactly the opposite in the Tyrion’s speech.

Action scenes are very sloppy, too. Now, that can be due to time constrains, because good action scenes require a lot of takes. But, on the other hand, by now they could’ve learned not to put prolonged fight scenes in the first place. But no, based on Karl/Jon fight (in which, by the way, Karl not even once attempted to use his two knives as two separate weapons, which is pretty ridiculous), it looks like they actually see nothing wrong with it. And then, there’s the “Blackwater” episode, and the battle in which, according to Neil Marshall’s famous interview (“I represent the pervert side of the audience...”), he, Marshal (the director), changed numerous things in order for the battle to look more “effective”. Now, he’s been the last minute replacement, so he didn’t know better, but how come nobody on the set told him that it may be a tad ridiculous to have all those people and heads cut in half by a single strike?! (Overall, he did a pretty decent job with action scenes in that episode, but occasionally ridiculous gore did stand out.)

isnt the point of a musical score to help people feel emotion? when you hear the jaws theme, you're supposed to feel scared. yes, sometimes music isnt necessary, but i think game of thrones has done a good job of using the score. the music during joffer's death was incredible, imo, even though it was really simple. i am actually not a huge fan of a lot of the themes of the show, but it has never taken me out of the experience. they do a good job of bringing the emotion with the scene and the music. it has never felt over done imo.

i thought the red wedding music was very good. it wasnt overly loud. it builds in the beginning leading up to talisa getting stabbed in the baby, then it really quiets down so you can really hear the fighting, then it builds again right before it cuts to outside. the music rests right as gray wind gets killed also. listen to the music when it cuts back to inside. the music dies down, then is pretty soft as you can hear more slaughter. everything right after "i'll find another" is amazing. that sad motive with the stark theme... aww the feels.

the best part is how the music cuts out at the end before cat dies, then nothing over the credits. all in all, i thought they did a great job with this scene.

yeah, the editing has been a little meh at times. the ramsay/yara thing was really bad, but overall, i think they have done amazingly with just about everything they do.

[Le Cygne]

I think the music on the series is awesome...

[Shpati]

Take the trial scene from tonight's episode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdA9H8Y0kUE

I really loved that scene from the book. Tyrion's whole schtick about being on trial for being a dwarf was one of my favourite speeches of his. But then that (the above) happened on the show and, well, it ruined it for me. First there was the overacting by Dinklage, which feels like a move on the director saying "hey, let them know how dramatic this scene really is". Then the extremely sappy "horrified crowd" ensues, with everyone yelling "oh, well I never!" Then that dramatic close-up of all the important characters' reactions to his "trial by combat" demand, followed by the worst part (which the video spared us of), the close-up on Tyrion's face and then Tywin's as they stared each other down at the end. All this over-dramatization completely robs the scene of its authenticity, and it reeks of the directors trying to spoon feed us what the stakes are in this scene, as if we couldn't have picked it up ourselves.

I felt the simliar. Everyone is all over that scene. But, I dunno... I think it was that lyrical "I did not do it". I felt kind of weird and embarrassing watching that scene.

[Miodrag]

And you just cemented yourself as someone who is a waste of time to argue with. Attacking an irrelevant detail in a user's post instead of what he was actually getting at.

You're forgetting that the said user (King Tommen) was the one who practically attacked the whole debate by bringing up one silly and baseless accusation (that people here don't know what cinematography is) and one completely irrelevant but aggressively used notion (that GOT directors are among the best in business). To that, iknownothingjonsnow replied with a pretty adequate irony, I think.

[Koi No Yokan]

I think it was that lyrical "I did not do it". I felt kind of weird and embarrassing watching that scene.

I did naht kill him, it's not true, it's bullshit, I did naht kill him, I did naaaht... Oh hi Shae.

[Konradsmith]

^That's funny.

[Queen of Whores]

I did naht kill him, it's not true, it's bullshit, I did naht kill him, I did naaaht... Oh hi Shae.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

I love that movie so much. And by love I mean have fun laughing at it and making fun of it with my friends.

[Nuttz]

The argument in this thread seems to be of film style, more specifically formalism vs realism. The epic is a genre of film that is deeply rooted in the formalist tradition. Early films like Birth of a Nation and Metropolis really pioneered this kind of bombastic film-making and used the tools of film to great effect in order to mold the film in a particular image and shape the audience's emotions. This kind of film style has stayed with the genre ever since, in films such as Ben Hur, Lawrence of Arabia and the more recent LotR trilogy.

Meanwhile we have the timeline of the realist film. It had it's early beginnings with documentary films and first saw wide-spread usage in Italian Neorealist films like The Bicycle Theif. From there it has lived on partly in the French New Wave, but mainly in television procedurals.

So here we have two schools of style in the film world, one finding common representation in film (formalist, which is ironically seen as the more traditional of the two), and the other finding the perfect home in television due to budget and time constraints (realist). Now, of course, the two have intersected, but they have very much represented their respective mediums (realism less so, as it has often been used in the more 'gritty' films).

Now, when Game of Thrones comes along, a series which is trying to break the mold of television shows and has constantly been described as "a 10 hours film every year", which style do you think it's going to use?

Now, a lot of the argument here seems to be of preference. Do you prefer realist or formalist? Which is fine, but the people calling one or the other redundant are just ridiculous. FIlm is an art from, why not use the tools of your art to illicit emotion? Camera-work and cinematography are the tools of film art, just as brushes and paint are of a canvas. The argument is essentially the same as Dali vs Warhol. There is no right answer, it's all just different artistic expression, and for Game of Thrones choosing a classical formalist approach to style (as opposed to a more contemporary approach as seen in Breaking Bad or the films of Guy Ritchie and Danny Boyle) is absolutely the correct choice in representing a genre. Realism works for stories very much grounded in the real world, such as the aforementioned The Wire, or the films of Paul Greengrass. GoT, while portraying human characters and basing it's fiction in the real world, is still very much fantasy, and the story is served very well by it's use of a classic formalist approach.

Didn't expect this to turn into an essay :P but this is one discussion that I am actually qualified to talk about! The only other think I will add is that I agree with the previous poster who said that many people in this thread don't seem to know what cinematography actually is. Camera movement falls more into the camera direction category, whereas cinematography encompasses framing and lighting composition. It's a difficult thing to define as different director/DoP's have different working relationships. It's a collaboration effort that differs in division of labour/artistry from project to project.

Anyway, as a cinematographer who is just beginning, I think Game of Thrones has the best cinematography on TV right now, and even rivals many films. The lighting is absolutely exquisite in differentiating the many different locations of Westeros/Essos and in many instances is downright beautiful to look at (the final Stannis scene in season 3 episode 10 is breathtaking). The only time the cinematography falls below exemplary standards is in episode one, as many of the surviving shots from the previously shot pilot have a completely different look about them (they're much softer as it was shot on film, whereas the newer has that distinctive crispness and swirly depth of field seen in digital cameras).

TL;DR: read it you lazy nonce!