[Book Spoilers] R+L=J and other theories on HBO V.2

[Annara Snow]

There's an interview up at EW.com with Alex Graves where he says that as he told the story, the Hound is done. He asks how the Hound could survive--good question, since TV Hound has blood poisoning and a compound leg fracture--and says that [the Hound's survival] is not left open-ended, but the point is that Arya walks away. It could be trolling, but remember that Alex Graves has said that he insisted D&D spoil him for future books, so...

LOL at anyone taking anything Alex Graves says as relevant.

Though if you really think he knows stuff from the books, "the Hound is done" is true in the show (and Sandor Clegane lives etc.).

ETA: and even if he knows that Sandor is going to come back for sure, it's not like he's going to say that in an interview, or would be allowed to.

[Onna Lewyys]

Because there's no evidence that he's actually at peace and he never chose to actually be there, and may likely be staying there because he has nowhere else to go?

Because that kind of 180 character change is extremely unlikely? Sandor is going to be happy as a silent celibate monk for all his life? Gimme a break.

It's not a 180. All through ASOS people talk about how he's lost his stomach for fighting. And he and Arya even stay in a village where he like works as a carpenter for weeks until the villagers ask him to leave. I don't see why it's a stretch to believe that the Quiet Isle might be the end for him. Being at peace doesn't have to mean happy. I think it's an incredibly fitting end for him.

[Le Cygne]

Arya said did he lose his belly for fighting, then he kicked ass in a swordfight even though he was sloshed. One of his signature chops and that's all they wrote for Polliver, who was a pretty big dude himself.

As Stranger goes, so goes Sandor, and he's literally kicking ass, they had to put him away from the other animals. He bit off the guy's ear who tried to cut off his nuts. Unless GRRM is telling horsey stories, I think we're getting a message loud and clear. And Sandor tossed dirt at the feet of the knights, he couldn't even be good for five minutes.

It's not a fitting ending at all - he mocked pious bleating, he's quite a talkative guy, and totally over the moon about a certain lady - so the rest of his life as a mute celibate holy roller is peace? That's hell.

[Le Cygne]

EW's Hibberd, Benioff and Weiss go to guy, knows what not to ask: "I know better than to ask if The Hound is dead, but..."

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/15/game-of-thrones-showrunners-on-season-4-finale-twists/

[FreeParking]

Brienne and Podrick are not knights.

[Onna Lewyys]

It's not a fitting ending at all - he mocked pious bleating, he's quite a talkative guy, and totally over the moon about a certain lady - so the rest of his life as a mute celibate holy roller is peace? That's hell.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. For myself, I believe he was already living in hell. I agree with the Elder Brother when he said that the Hound was a tormented soul whose life was driven by rage, hatred, and killing. I'm simply hoping that he won't have to return to that life.

[Le Cygne]

Brienne and Podrick are not knights.

Ser Hyle is a knight and Brienne appeared to be one (hence Pod calling her Ser My Lady, over and over).

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. For myself, I believe he was already living in hell. I agree with the Elder Brother when he said that the Hound was a tormented soul whose life was driven by rage, hatred, and killing. I'm simply hoping that he won't have to return to that life.

The Elder Brother wanted Brienne to stop looking for Sandor, that was double talk. Same way he said the Hound is dead, knowing full well Sandor is alive. Sandor is in the middle of a Beauty and the Beast story that's quite extensive, that the author has been telling since book one. Look at the BatB link in my signature, the scene he wrote for the show is straight out of La Belle et la Bete. The Hound persona Sandor developed to defend himself against his brother was gone by the time he was dying, he wasn't sobbing about his brother, he had gone from driven by hate to driven by love.

[The Anti-Targ]

So what do we make of this spoiler from Sean Bean?

When Ned Stark's head was chopped off by Joffrey on the steps of the Great Sept of Baelor, most Game of Thrones fans thought they had seen the last of him.

But the actor behind the only noble man in the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, Sean Bean, has stuck his longsword in it.

He's confirmed what many avid readers of the series have suspected for some years.

Ned Stark is not Jon Snow's father.

"I've definitely got some unfinished business that needs to be resolved there." Bean told Vulture. "I'm obviously not Jon Snow's dad. And you need that to be revealed at some point, don't you?"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/10300673/Game-of-Thrones-Sean-Bean-drops-spoiler

Is it a genuine spoiler (i.e. Sean Bean knows more than we do) or is it just Sean Bean interpreting what he knows of the story so far, which is exactly what we all know (i.e. up to the events of aDwD), and coming to the same conclusion about R+L=J as most(?) of us?

[Red Raven]

I think it's hilarious! Some people are going to hyperventilate and I'm going to enjoy that. :devil:

[Annara Snow]

So what do we make of this spoiler from Sean Bean?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/10300673/Game-of-Thrones-Sean-Bean-drops-spoiler

Is it a genuine spoiler (i.e. Sean Bean knows more than we do) or is it just Sean Bean interpreting what he knows of the story so far, which is exactly what we all know (i.e. up to the events of aDwD), and coming to the same conclusion about R+L=J as most(?) of us?

It could be either/both. Remember, the identity of Jon's mother is the first thing D&D learned from GRRM about the series - the question he asked them at their first meeting, where they gave their guess and he confirmed it. I wouldn't be surprised if Bean was the one actor they told something about it - the way he looks down when Robert is ranting about Rhaegar raping Lyanna always made me think he was in on it. The pilot contained a few hints, the above mentioned conversation straight from the book where Ned is evasive when Robert is asking about the name of Jon's mom, and the parting conversation between Ned and Jon where he says he will talk to him about his mother when they see each other again, and "You do not have my name, but you have my blood".

Or maybe not, and he's just read the books and come to that conclusion, and/or is aware of the fandom; in either case, he seems to find it so obvious that Ned is not Jon's biological father that he doesn't consider it a spoiler. Some Unsullied have figured it out that Ned is Jon's dad and was hiding some big epic secret, too.

[FreeParking]

Ser Hyle is a knight and Brienne appeared to be one (hence Pod calling her Ser My Lady, over and over).

Oh yes, Ser Hyle was there. Forgot about him.

Hmmm, is Brienne a knight? Pod is awkward in social situations, so I wouldn't take what he says as gospel. Does Jaime ever refer to her as a knight (you know, after he stops being a dick to her)?

[Onna Lewyys]

Hmmm, is Brienne a knight?

Officially no. But spiritually she embodies the virtues of knighthood better than any real knight we've met.

[bluelip]

I know it's fanboyish behavior, but I've been hoping for a ToJ-ish scene ever since Season 2.

Jaime riding past it en route to Dorne would work. He could briefly describe the fight based on information from the White Book, and then wonder aloud why three kingsguard would die there defending Lyanna Stark. Bronn could then shoot him down by saying something funny along the lines of "they're all dead, so who gives a fuck?" Perfect. Fingers crossed. Though I know I'm likely to be let down.

[bluelip]

I'm no Bryan Cogman, but here goes:

JAIME and BRONN encounter a large tower as they ride en route to Dorne.

BRONN: That's some tower.

JAIME: It's the Tower of Joy. Do you know what happened there?

BRONN: Never cared much for history books.

JAIME: Prince Rhaegar hid his mistress up there. Lyanna Stark. At the end of the war, after Robert killed Rhaegar, Ned Stark rode here with six northmen to rescue her.

BRONN: And?

JAIME: Stark's band fought three members of the Kingsguard, including Lord Commander Hightower. The northmen prevailed, though almost all of them died except for Stark. And then Ned climbed the tower, only to find his sister at the top. Dying.

BRONN: Those Starks seem to have a talent for that.

JAIME: I wonder - why would three members of the Kingsguard give their lives to protect the Prince's dying mistress? I never understood why they weren't fighting by Rhaegar's side. He must have ordered them to stay here.

BRONN: Or maybe they should have been by the King's side. You know, that one you poked in the back with your pretty sword?

JAIME: Don't be insolent. I'm raising an interesting question.

BRONN: There's only one question that interests me right now: where's a nice place to take a shit?

BRONN rides off. JAIME, lingering, continues to gaze towards the tower.

[bluelip]

Later on, show the tower again in a Bran weirnet vision, with a disembodied female voice gasping "Promise me, Ned. Promise me."

[FreeParking]

Officially no. But spiritually she embodies the virtues of knighthood better than any real knight we've met.

That is my point. Nobody denies that Brienne is trying to uphold what the idea of a knight is in her actions, but she isn't actually a knight. Le Cygne claimed that on the QI Sandor was disrespectful toward Brienne because she was a knight. That is just not true. Neither are knights and I think that is an important distinction to make.

[Le Cygne]

No, looking at it from his perspective, they appeared to be knights. Ser Hyle was, Brienne appeared to be one. Appeared to be = looks like one. Doesn't mean she said vows, means to all appearances, a knight. Hence, why Pod mistook her for one at first. And keeps calling her Ser. She is, for all intents and purposes, a knight.

Arya also thought Sandor was a knight and referred to him as such:

Joffrey said nothing, but a man strange to Arya, a tall knight with black hair and burn scars on his face, pushed forward in front of the prince.

Sansa called him Ser Sandor at first, and then knowing he wasn't one, still wanted to call him one:

As they were winding their way up the steps, she said, "Why do you let people call you a dog? You won't let anyone call you a knight."

And he explains once again, he doesn't care for knights. He likes dogs better:

"I like dogs better than knights."

And then guess what happens in the scene in question, after he shows his disdain for what appears to be knights:

The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.

Hint, hint, hint.

[Annara Snow]

To sum up what season 4 seems to have confirmed/supported as far as theories go (though we can't be sure) and what can be seen as possible foreshadowing:

- Most obviously, where little White Walkers come from. Some people called it a spoiler, but it was strongly hinted by one of the Craster wives, I think it was in ASOS (she has a line about the baby's brothers being around to come for him) and it's what always made most sense (I mean, really, the idea of White Walkers as monsters eating babies... come on). I love that scene, it was the first time we got a White Walker POV, so to speak.

- Oberyn's words about Rhaegar were the first hint that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off together as opposed to Robert's version of the story about kidnapping and rape. I think it's the first time we see that, at least, it's not thought of as rape by some other people. Could be a preparation for setting up the R+L=J revelation.

- They really are emphasizing Shireen's and Selyse's roles and stressing Mel's belief that Shireen is really important and must be at the Wall. It seems that they are strongly hinting at Melisandre planning for Shireen to be sacrificed. Maybe she wants her to be Stannis' Nissa Nissa?

- Sansa is going to go from pawn to player, as so many of us have believed, and be able to manipulate Littlefinger. It would have gone more smoothly if they hadn't written Sansa as an idiot child in season 3 ("Will my family be able to come at the wedding?") I can imagine D&D hearing from GRRM how Sansa's plot is supposed to resolved, thinking "Oh shit, we have to show people she's not an idiot and that she's strong and smart and all, we better do that as obviously as we can, fuck subtlety". It's also likely she has a lot of stuff to do in future books/seasons, or else they wouldn't be speeding up her storyline like this. And her identity is either going to be revealed to Lady Weynwood and Yohn Royce or some of the other important Vale lords in the books sooner than later, or they have already/are figuring it out for themselves, as speculated.

- On that note, "Sansa is not a killer... yet" sounds like foreshadowing/hint. And am I the only one who thinks "Given the chance, what do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?" sounds like a perfect callback line for Sansa to use when she finds out about LF's involvement in Ned's death?

- The Iron Bank is going to be helluva important. They made sure to mention it dozens of times.

- It looks like Tyrion's anger and resentment of Jaime is not going to be a big plot point - or at least not that big that they can't bypass it or change it for the show. So either they won't meet again in the books, or Tyrion's anger will subside and he'll forgive Jaime, or the whole thing isn't going to play enough of a role that D&D can't employ their "no conflicts between good guys!!!" policy (see also: Tyrion and Sansa, Sansa and the Tyrells, Robb and Cat not finding out about the marriage, etc.).

- On a similar note, though Sansa and Tyrion being somewhat friendlier to each other is a result of the above mentioned policy (and maybe their tendency to try to play with fans of every possible "ship" Sansa could have on the show with people from the main cast), it's clear there isn't going to be any significant conflict between them if they meet again. But I don't think that there were many people who believed that in the first place, with their basic-indifference-with-mildly positive-and-only-sporadically-negative attitude towards each other in the books.

- I don't think the lack of Tysha reveal necessarily says anything about her role in the book; of course, she is not going to get back with Tyrion, but that much was always obvious. It's still possible for him to find out about her fate in the books, whether from her or someone else.

- We can draw conclusions which characters have roles to play and which don't... and those that don't tend to get killed off. Pyp and Grenn are not going to play any particularly important role (no surprise).

- Jojen is probably already dead or going to die soon in TWOW. (I would love to conclude that it means Jojenpaste is just crackpot since I hate that theory, but it's also possible that it does happen in the book and D&D just decided that it won't happen in the show so they destroyed Jojen's body. In which case, good decision.)

- On the other hand, the way they didn't take a chance to kill off Sandor, left his fate ambiguous just as it was in ASOS, and how secretive and vague they've been about him (interviewers saying they know better not to ask if he is dead or not), probably confirms that he is not just alive in the books but that he's also going to come back and have an important role in the future. Also, he just happens to be in the Vale at the time of his "death", even closer to where Sansa is than he is in the books (QI being very close to the Vale)... very convenient, hm. And they actually had him mention Sansa in his last scene and chose a sexual reference rather than the more protective one (though I wish he had also said he stood there while they were beating her)... seems to point out at a future SanSan reunion, whether it's late in season 5 or season 6 or whenever. And since they kind of went there, there's no reason not to finally hint at her feelings for him, which should be less controversial.

- Ser Robert Strong is definitely happening, whether or not he still has a head.

- Bronn as Lord Protector of Stokeworth may get to play a role in KL post-ADWD, since the show belatedly acknowledged the existence of Lollys and her elder sister and introduced the marriage plot I and many others thought wasn't going to happen on the show.

- ... and finally - one thing I'm not sure about at all. There were quite a few things this season that seemed like setup for Lady Stoneheart. I don't want to start that discussion again, but the way D&D are avoiding making any comments about her and that Craig Ferguson didn't allow the question to be posed at the comic con, I'm starting to think she may still be included in season 5. Therefore, I'm not going to make any conclusions about whether she will be in the show, let alone how important her role will be in the books.

There are probably other things I have forgotten. Oh, and a couple of things I've learned:

- GRRM is showing D&D his unpublished chapters ("Mercy" => "Two Swords")

- Don't pay attention to what directors say in interviews. Or what actors say. Or what actors post on their Instagrams.

[Le Cygne]

I put this on another thread...

[Arkash]

Thanks Annara for putting all of this together ! 't was a very interesting read and it left me pondering quite a lot about the future of the story !