Was Jaime right to push Bran?

[Mourneblade]

I think you're a little overstating what guest right represents to Westeros. It's not a law on the books, it is a tradition.

"fornication and incest" in no way harm the host, those actions wouldn't break guest right.

Guest Right is more than tradition, those violating Guest Right have to deal with the consequences from a supernatural source. Jamie faced the consequences of this action when he lost the hand he used to push Bran from the window. You do not mess with Guest Rights in Westeros. This curse is real.

[Dofs]

This is the biggest load of BS I have ever read.

Depends what the poster means. If the position was "kill this child you just met to save your own 3 children", then they have a point.

This is what I mean.

An unknown child sees a guy doing something and if this child runs away and tells what he saw, all that guy's people he loves - his children, his parents, for example, and so on would be dead by evening. What would anyone do in this guy's place?

[Dicer]

No

[Hodor the Articulate]

I never got the impression that Jaime cared about his kids, at that point, and I doubt he was thinking of them, when he made the decision to push Bran. I think he was just doing what Cersei wanted him to do (or rather, what he thought Cersei wanted).

[Snows Queen]

Cersei didn't want Jamie to push Bran,she thought she could control the child (imo, incorrectly believes this). I do think most people would atleast think about sacrificing another's child to save their own. I have also had the thought that Bloodraven and his magic were somehow at play here considering Bran would not have come to him without this incident- he would have been in KL when his father was arrested, who knows what Cersei would have done with him then. Personally I like Jaime. Saying he deserves whatever Robert handed him because of his relationship with Cersei is understandable (although I don't agree) BUT it wasn't just about saving himself and Cersei... it was about his children as well, which, imo, changes the situation. Three children do not deserve to die for the mistakes of their parents. I don't think there is any doubt that Robert would have killed them all.

[Dragon Seed]

If I was in that position I would have pushed him out the window too. Why should he give a rats ass about Bran Stark or any other person that may tell his sick little secret. Push the kid and live another day. Makes sense to me.

[The Wolves]

No he wasn't right, Jaime is a monster and I can't understand how Bran had to pay for Jaime and Cersei's recklessness and their disregard for their safety and their children's because they choose to have sex in a unfamiliar environment.

[Nettles]

I think you're a little overstating what guest right represents to Westeros. It's not a law on the books, it is a tradition.

"fornication and incest" in no way harm the host, those actions wouldn't break guest right.

This tradition is in fact unwritten law and those who breach it, sooner or later suffer the sequences. The Freys are done. Everybody hates them because they broke "tradition".

Fornication and incest do not physicaly harm the host, engaging in an act of treason does. Bedding the king's wife is punishable by death and I doubt anyone would suffer it under their roof. You don't want said roof being confiscated by the crown, or pulled down to the ground.

And the OP's post is implying that killing a child can be justified. Seriously? Are you Melisandre? Edric Storm all over again.

[Hanzo Hasashi]

Cersei didn't want Jamie to push Bran,she thought she could control the child (imo, incorrectly believes this). I do think most people would atleast think about sacrificing another's child to save their own. I have also had the thought that Bloodraven and his magic were somehow at play here considering Bran would not have come to him without this incident- he would have been in KL when his father was arrested, who knows what Cersei would have done with him then. Personally I like Jaime. Saying he deserves whatever Robert handed him because of his relationship with Cersei is understandable (although I don't agree) BUT it wasn't just about saving himself and Cersei... it was about his children as well, which, imo, changes the situation. Three children do not deserve to die for the mistakes of their parents. I don't think there is any doubt that Robert would have killed them all.

c'mon man- so Bran deserves to die?

If I was in that position I would have pushed him out the window too. Why should he give a rats ass about Bran Stark or any other person that may tell his sick little secret. Push the kid and live another day. Makes sense to me.

Where your morals at bro? Sure you could act strictly out of self-preservation, but I for one could not live with myself after. If you could, then bravo I guess?

Does anyone believe in owning up to and facing the consequences of their actions? Him and Cersei's relationship was an ongoing thing, they both were aware of the risks at all times, and were constantly playing with fire. If you have a code for yourself, killing an innocent child to save your own ass (and I suppose your family, who YOU knowingly put at risk) should not be on it. Unless of course your a scumbag. Good day SIR!

[WSmith84]

I sincerely hope I never meet some of you people in real life. You're attempting to justify the attempted murder of a child for seeing something that he probably didn't fully understand. I don't know what I would do in that situation, but I definitely wouldn't murder the blameless 8 year old.

[Hanzo Hasashi]

I sincerely hope I never meet some of you people in real life. You're attempting to justify the attempted murder of a child for seeing something that he probably didn't fully understand. I don't know what I would do in that situation, but I definitely wouldn't murder the blameless 8 year old.

Amen.

Edit: This goddamn thread is blood-boiler :bang: I'm sure when GRRM wrote it, he didn't expect the audience to say: "Ahhh yeah, good move Jamie, I'd definitely do the same!"

[Mark Antony]

No

/thread

[MountainThatSkates]

NO!

Alright, you can justify it all you want by saying that it saved his skin and some utilitarian argument but the point goes back to why he was in that position in the first place. HE was doing something that was very wrong! He pushed a kid out a window because he was committing treason in addition to incest and everything else.

To exaggerate this argument would be like saying if I get pulled over for a speeding ticket I would be "right" to kill the officer because I would be better off if he was dead.

He wouldn't have to kill a young boy, if he wasn't already committing various acts of "wrong", so to ask if he is "right" to push a young boy out a window is pretty ridiculous

[Hotpie Targaryen]

Yes.

The minute Bran caught them, it became a balance scale. Bran's life versus Jaime, Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen.

Now, you can make all sorts of arguments about how Jaime and Cersei shouldn't have been sexing it up, or how it's all Cersei's fault, or anything you want. Technically, Bran shouldn't have been climbing that tower...just saying.

The fact remains, however, that at that moment, it became Bran's life versus Jaime's own, and the life of the woman Jaime loved. Regardless of how they got there, that's what it boils down to. So yes. If it were my life, and the life of the person I'm in love with, versus the life of a kid, then I'll pick me and mine over them any day of the week.

The only fault I find in Jaime is his seeming lack of guilt or remorse.

[complexphoenix]

I am very much a utilitarian, because it seems to me that categorical imperatives are really just heuristics meant to get socially utilitarian outcomes even from people who don't completely think through their actions. Indeed, categorical imperatives are frequently reexamined from a social utilitarian perspective, and discarded if they are found to serve no purpose (this is why our views on homosexuality have changed so dramatically) and new ones are created when people feel they are needed.

GRRM said in an interview that he often encounters people who think, at first blush, that Jaime was obviously in the wrong and that they themselves would never do such a thing. GRRM tells them to think again: if it really came down to the life of one child you didn't know against the lives of your entire family, would you really spare the child stranger simply because it's the right thing to do? When your entire family is at stake? And then they realize that they probably would put their own first. In the book, when Cersei confronts Ned with this, even he tacitly realizes that he would have done the same.

Of course, Jaime could have avoided this whole situation from ever coming up by simply refraining from fucking his sister. So that limits my sympathy. Jaime and Cersei were unambiguously wrong in having their affair. What they did benefited nobody but themselves and put the entire realm at risk, which was monstrously immoral by any measure.

[Dofs]

I'm sure when GRRM wrote it, he didn't expect the audience to say: "Ahhh yeah, good move Jamie, I'd definitely do the same!"

Ew, GRRM was actually basically justifying it in his interviews. :rolleyes:

"Obviously a lot of people, when Jaime throws Bran out the window, and we like Bran, we've seen his good points, tend to think that makes Jaime a bad guy. But then you understand, if you understand the situation, if Bran goes back and tells what the saw, and is believed, Jaime will be put to death, his sister will be put to death, and there's an excellent chance that his own children will be put to death.

So I said to my friend, what would you do if some other eight year old kid was in a position to say something and you knew that would mean the death of your own young daughter. And he said, that eight year old kid is dead! And this is what we would consider a moral man.

So how do you make that choice? The abstract of the morality vs. the lives of your own children. I mean, I don't know that I'm a prostelitizer who says this is the answer to that, but I have to question the painful, difficult question, the difficulty of the choice, that's what I think makes powerful fiction."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/game-of-thrones-season-3-characters_n_1854918.html

And in his most recent interview:

At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting. I don't have any kids myself, but I've talked with other people who have. Remember, Jaime isn't just trying to kill Bran because he's an annoying little kid. Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I've asked people who do have children, "Well, what would you do in Jaime's situation?" They say, "Well, I'm not a bad guy – I wouldn't kill." Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he's going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .

Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, "Yeah, I would kill someone else's child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent." These are the difficult decisions people make, and they're worth examining.

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=3

[The Wolves]

Technically, Bran shouldn't have been climbing that tower...just saying.

This is not relevant.

Bran has more right to climb that tower in Winterfell than Jaime has any right to breath in Winterfell. Even if Bran shouldn't have been climbing he should have been safe climbing buildings that he's been doing his whole life and that's his family's ancestral home.

Also the fear was that Bran would fall from climbing not be pushed by someone.

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

he's as right to push Bran as he is to concieve 3 kids with his sister and pass them off as natural heirs to the sitting king. To judge the right or wrong of his acts, you have to validate or invalidate his reasoning for doing it. It is completely rational for him to think that what Bran saw could bring down his whole family and all his father had "worked" to gain?Yeah. Is one child's life worth the lives of your 3 children as well as the one you love? Possibly. Tywin talks about Tyrion and his behavior (whoring etc) bringing shame to House Lannister. How would he deal with his golden twins being outed? Tywin is no fool;the whole "father children named Lannister" showed that. He's most likely know of and turned a blind eye to his kids proclivities for some time. But once the incest is revealed, and the adultery against the king it would be difficult for him to maintain his standing in the realm if he didn't rebuke them....and be left with Tyrion as heir to Casterly Rock as he has no legit grandkids, Cersei would prolly be executed or sent to the silent sisters and Jamie would be executed or sent to the Wall. I think Jamie's desired end (which wasn't to callously maim or kill the boy, but to save/protect his family) justified the means. It sucked though...and you shouldn't sleep with your sister.

[Drogon'sWrath]

Does anyone believe in owning up to and facing the consequences of their actions? Him and Cersei's relationship was an ongoing thing, they both were aware of the risks at all times, and were constantly playing with fire. If you have a code for yourself, killing an innocent child to save your own ass (and I suppose your family, who YOU knowingly put at risk) should not be on it. Unless of course your a scumbag. Good day SIR!

I can see the argument some people make. And while I do believe in owning up to your actions remember that their children would likely have to face those consequences as well. So by not pushing Bran he would be putting his own children, who are innocent of their parents crime, at risk. And when you get down to it, it's the life of one child verses the life of a man, his lover, and their three children. Ask yourself this: if you had to choose between the lives of your family and the life of a single unrelated child, which would you choose?

However, this is where my sympathy for Jaime's situation ends. We don't have his POV of the incident, but I'm not convinced he actually was thinking of his children but was just thinking of what would happen to himself and Cersei if they were to get caught. Besides that, they really shouldn't have been having sex in an unknown place anyway. Anyone could catch them, and thy're just lucky it was someone they could easily deal with.

When I look at this situation from every angle, I come to the conclusion that the action is understandable. However, due to all the mitigating circumstances, it isn't justifiable.

[Mourneblade]

This thread was meant for lots and lots of Popcorn.... so delicious.