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THOSE WHO SING


wolfmaid7

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I think the "song" as a means of intimate bonding brings with it it's own "magic." It has its own frequency that only someone with the same instinct can hear. It causes both harmony and discord, communication and obstruction.

Whale songs come to mind as a real-world example, but also wolf songs which is why in myth and pop culture, they are often referred to benevolently, (as in Native American culture), and malevolently (in some European traditions), "as the children of the night

There is a pitch for every howl that brings with it its own meaning, and Martins use of animal sigils, or totems in combination with the tradtitions he grew up with, isn't an accident.

The Ghost of High Hart always requests a song of the BBWB, Jennys song, as payment for her prophesies. It is the same sad song that is sung by Tom of Sevenstreams at the sepulchre of Tristifer. It may be the same song in the that Robb tells Cat of while standing before the sepulchre.

This song seems to bring with it tragic events, or at least tied to tragedy.

You gave me shivers reminding me of whale song! :D

This is a great lens to look at these stories, wolfmaid7! :) One of the first things that popped into my min was Varys' lament that, "North or south, they sing no songs for spiders." But I also recall how Ygritte finishes the tale (or song) of Bael the Bard, when Jon says:

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

"No," Ygritte said, "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it." (ACoK)

This reminds me of the distinction Aristotle makes between poetry and history in the Poetics:

A poet differs from a historian, not because one writes verse and the other writes prose (the work of Herodotus could be put into verse, but it would still remain a history, whether in verse or prose), but because the historian relates what happened, the poet what might happen. This is why poetry is more akin to philosophy and is a better thing than history; poetry deals with general truths, history with specific events. The latter are, for example, what Alcibiades did or suffered, while general truths are the kind of thing which a certain type of person would probably or inevitably do or say.

There are also all of Patchface's little songs (or couplets, rather) to think about.

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I think the "song" as a means of intimate bonding brings with it it's own "magic." It has its own frequency that only someone with the same instinct can hear. It causes both harmony and discord, communication and obstruction.

Whale songs come to mind as a real-world example, but also wolf songs which is why in myth and pop culture, they are often referred to benevolently, (as in Native American culture), and malevolently (in some European traditions), "as the children of the night

There is a pitch for every howl that brings with it its own meaning, and Martins use of animal sigils, or totems in combination with the tradtitions he grew up with, isn't an accident.

The Ghost of High Hart always requests a song of the BBWB, Jennys song, as payment for her prophesies. It is the same sad song that is sung by Tom of Sevenstreams at the sepulchre of Tristifer. It may be the same song in the that Robb tells Cat of while standing before the sepulchre.

This song seems to bring with it tragic events, or at least tied to tragedy.

Daaang that GHH request gave me goosebumps,that is a nice catch.I wonder what is it in "that" song that resonates power?

This OP reminded me of an interview that I heard Perry Farrell do with Howard Stern years ago, that he reiterated in a printed interview, wherein he expressed that he thought it was possible to musically contact aliens:

"....I'm going to try musically. I found a book that details the musical breakdown of minerals on this planet. For example, phosphate and amethyst and amber, they all have resonances . . . each mineral has its own particular resonance. And this book breaks down the resonances musically. So I'm having this gentleman play sheet music of minerals, if you will, and I have it taped. And in between acts...I'm going to play it out towards the cosmos and see if any music comes back our way. I'm counting on a sense of humor to be had by all, including extraterrestrials. I think they would kind of get a laugh if they understood mineralogy and that we were playing the notes for rock salt."

At the time, I figured he was stoned out of his mind, but maybe its brilliance. The implied premise is that humans either don't know or have forgotten the language of minerals, of natural resonances, from the atoms we come from, made from the stars...but that there could be life out there that recognizes the language. This is a beautiful theory for this piece of fictional work (ASOIAF), too, that there is a natural language out there that either the most primitive-or the most intelligent-life forms can still tune into, but cannot be heard through the fog of modern concerns.

Lol...Yes the idea of stones resonating is very common in new age beliefs.There are stones for healing,fertility etc.The idea of the natural language in the "song" is wonderfully put.Strategically, i wonder what is the end game to getting Dany the eggs and the Starks kids the pups.There was some planning for that.

The idea of a difference between intuitive vs. learnt is a good one. It mentions that the Singers have spells (which appear synonymous with songs). Though there they have an advantage, as they have pretty easy access, so even if it requires learning it's pretty easy going, whereas someone like Mel or MMD have to study it.

The Maesters, too, with varying degrees of success (or mostly none). People like Dany would seem to have a much easier time with the intuitive type. I wonder if that's what went wrong at Summerhall. . . not enough learning or not enough intuition in the songs? Or did they know they needed a song?

This is a great angle of thinking,i don't think they were aware that they needed Dragonsong particularly they attempted a ritual without the Dragon's invitation.Drogon as an egg went through the whole Song summons with Dany and intuitivly she knew what she had to do.She needed her blood( the blood on the eggs in her dreams) and she would not burn.

Maybe Summerhall was the song of The Doom. Absolutely no textual link, but it's an interesting notion that there was a song, or a lack of song, and that's what caused the meltdown.

That's a thought.

You gave me shivers reminding me of whale song! :D

This is a great lens to look at these stories, wolfmaid7! :) One of the first things that popped into my min was Varys' lament that, "North or south, they sing no songs for spiders." But I also recall how Ygritte finishes the tale (or song) of Bael the Bard, when Jon says:

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

"No," Ygritte said, "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it." (ACoK)

This reminds me of the distinction Aristotle makes between poetry and history in the Poetics:

There are also all of Patchface's little songs (or couplets, rather) to think about.

Yep,Patchface singing songs of "Woe"

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Here is the passage from the Silmarillion. it is the first paragraphs of the book.



There was Eru, the ONe, who is Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but a few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to a deeper understanding and increased in unison and harmony......The Iluvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.



Then it goes on about how the Ainur began singing their song and through it, changed their melodies into solid form and created the earth. I think the song theme you are tackling here is a very important one. The song connects people and things to each other. It is unique to each being. Dany hears Drogons song, a song no one else will ever hear. A song he sings for her to wake her and bring her to life in GOT. She was practically dead in the saddle when Drogon came to her with his bonding song and saved her. I think there a re a lot of parallels between the songs in ASIOAF and in the Silmarillion, also the Silmarillion is much darker than TLOTR, a lot more death of favorite characters so naturally it has more in common with GRRM's work IMO.



'Yet ever as they listened they came to a deeper understanding and increased in unison and harmony' I think this applies to all the bonds between Direwolves and the Starks and Dany and Drogon. The longer they are together and the more they learn of each other the better they understand the song of their counterpart. This is shown more in the Ghost/Jon bond than anyone else IMO.


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Here is the passage from the Silmarillion. it is the first paragraphs of the book.

There was Eru, the ONe, who is Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but a few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to a deeper understanding and increased in unison and harmony......The Iluvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.

Then it goes on about how the Ainur began singing their song and through it, changed their melodies into solid form and created the earth. I think the song theme you are tackling here is a very important one. The song connects people and things to each other. It is unique to each being. Dany hears Drogons song, a song no one else will ever hear. A song he sings for her to wake her and bring her to life in GOT. She was practically dead in the saddle when Drogon came to her with his bonding song and saved her. I think there a re a lot of parallels between the songs in ASIOAF and in the Silmarillion, also the Silmarillion is much darker than TLOTR, a lot more death of favorite characters so naturally it has more in common with GRRM's work IMO.

'Yet ever as they listened they came to a deeper understanding and increased in unison and harmony' I think this applies to all the bonds between Direwolves and the Starks and Dany and Drogon. The longer they are together and the more they learn of each other the better they understand the song of their counterpart. This is shown more in the Ghost/Jon bond than anyone else IMO.

I totally agree with this,and emphasize Drogon's song essentially saving Dany's life.That girl was on a suicide path no doubt and the Ghost/Jon bond too is another "shared" song that i don't think anyone comes close too.It will be interesting to see how ths will play out.Bran has an inkling that he "forgot" the language somehow and that he could almost understand it is very telling to me.

'Yet ever as they listened they came to a deeper understanding and increased in unison and harmony' .....< This This and then some is what could be in store for our Dany,and the Stark pack.This could be very interesting because Leaf numbered the Direwolves among the Old Races so that makes them players in their own right and i would like seeing the relationship dynamic moving forward with them.

too similar to middle earths history for me... sorry commented before i read other comments ;/

That's ok....If you look at it i think GRRM has taken the idea of the "shared song" further.Many a times the culture of the land and the powers of the creatures that inhabited it pre First Men goes unoticed.They have a stake in this too...Their survival.Plus i wouldn't say the similarity is more Toilken,but more realistic to the culture GRRM himself is familiar.He has drawn from Celtic,Nordic and Amercan Indian myths and the magical song is very much apart.

He did name the series "A song of fire and ice" and over and over again we see the theme of the natural song and the songs of spells being played over and over again.

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Absolutely awesome thread that wont get the attention it deserves because its somewhere in-between the repetitive, obvious, clear-cut R+L=J type topics and the ridiculous Jon and Jamie are gay, (or Dany is Lucifer because she's popular with people who haven't read the books) threads.



People on this cite are rarely interested in actually joining together to discuss/discover bigger picture storylines like the origins of magic, what was the Doom, who are the Others; and instead would rather re-contribute to an idea like Jon being Rhaegars son, something that's been theorized for 18 years already


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Absolutely awesome thread that wont get the attention it deserves because its somewhere in-between the repetitive, obvious, clear-cut R+L=J type topics and the ridiculous Jon and Jamie are gay, (or Dany is Lucifer because she's popular with people who haven't read the books) threads.

People on this cite are rarely interested in actually joining together to discuss/discover bigger picture storylines like the origins of magic, what was the Doom, who are the Others; and instead would rather re-contribute to an idea like Jon being Rhaegars son, something that's been theorized for 18 years already

Yes I agree, often the most interesting threads are overlooked because too much thought or reading is required, while threads like 'I hate Dany' or 'mustache twirling villains' are everyones favorite and fill up with 400 posts in one day. It's ridiculous.

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Absolutely awesome thread that wont get the attention it deserves because its somewhere in-between the repetitive, obvious, clear-cut R+L=J type topics and the ridiculous Jon and Jamie are gay, (or Dany is Lucifer because she's popular with people who haven't read the books) threads.

People on this cite are rarely interested in actually joining together to discuss/discover bigger picture storylines like the origins of magic, what was the Doom, who are the Others; and instead would rather re-contribute to an idea like Jon being Rhaegars son, something that's been theorized for 18 years already

True,i much like to look at the themes that George has put in our face over and over again in a subtle way,which i think atlease are crucial for how things might turn out and moreso how they got started.The various songs which are magical was instrumental in forging a relationship between the Starks and the Old Races. What is it that they forgot about their past? Why have this resounding theme of singing if it wasn't important to the overall picture?

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I did not take note of this and i'm glad that you pointed this out .I wonder if these Singers are naturally intuitive or were taught the songs?Kind of like how the Singers of Westeros taught the First Men.

That's what I think, that they were taught the songs like the way the first men were taught by the singers.

I also remember when Dany was in the HOTU one person asked her if she would like to learn the speech of dragonkind, I wonder if that is the song.

“A willful beast,” laughed a handsome young man. “Shall we teach you the secret speech of dragonkind? Come, come.”
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That's what I think, that they were taught the songs like the way the first men were taught by the singers.

I also remember when Dany was in the HOTU one person asked her if she would like to learn the speech of dragonkind, I wonder if that is the song.

“A willful beast,” laughed a handsome young man. “Shall we teach you the secret speech of dragonkind? Come, come.”

Yes yes i remeber that quote......I believe it is a song that she can only learn from Drogon though. I don't trust those buggers,they may try and do some sorcery crap which would be counterintuitive. Kind of like Skinchangers being taught by someone vs the animal teaching them.This is why i believe Jon will be the only one to learn effectivly how to share his skin with Ghost,by Ghost and no one else.

There are people in this series who have the gift but others want to capitalize, step in and teach them to hone it so they can use them as tools.That's why i hope Jon tells Mel take her offer of "her teaching Jon how to use his and Ghost's power" and go eff herself.

Ghost will be Jon's teacher and Drogon will be Dany's if they let them and i hope they do.It would be refreshing to see that in some of the characters.

Their are "songs" to control a Dragon eg."the horn" and who knows what else,but lets hope Dany utilizes the same mentality with her Silver with Drogon also. Let him teach her the lessons.

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Concerning the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta (from the Silmarillion) the music of the Ainur was grand and beautiful until Melkor and those who followed him twisted and perverted it for their own power and glory. This reminds me of Valyria, and how they used magic to subjugate many a free people, only to succumb to the forces that gave them their power in the first place. We don't know much about the doom, but we can be sure there was plenty of fire and blood.

Everything below this is Edit.

The music of the Ainur, and it's 'battle' with the music of Melkor, shaped the world of Middle Earth Arda, with Melkor creating most of the evil in the world. Eru Illuvatar made the world with Melkor's dissonance in it anyway, because without great evil great heroes cannot be made, and every song must have it's balance, much like in Grrth.

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I'm curious about something:



What if anything is the significance of Dany being able to hear Drogon's song before he was ever hatched?



Having his spirit reach out to her before he was ever hatched makes me wonder if there is something unique about this bond, even within the context of other Dragon Lords. At this moment we don't have that information (TPATQ), however, if Rhaegal and Viserion have riders who are are also POV's we do know that those riders were not contacted by their respective dragons prior to hatching.


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Concerning the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta (from the Silmarillion) the music of the Ainur was grand and beautiful until Melkor and those who followed him twisted and perverted it for their own power and glory. This reminds me of Valyria, and how they used magic to subjugate many a free people, only to succumb to the forces that gave them their power in the first place. We don't know much about the doom, but we can be sure there was plenty of fire and blood.

Everything below this is Edit.

The music of the Ainur, and it's 'battle' with the music of Melkor, shaped the world of Middle Earth, with Melkor creating most of the evil in the world. Eru Illuvatar made the world with Melkor's dissonance in it anyway, because without great evil great heroes cannot be made, and every song must have it's balance, much like in Grrth.

If I remember correctly the Dragon Lord families of Valyria all used the dragon horn to tame their dragons except for the Targaryens.

Thus, it makes you wonder how were the Targaryens able to form a natural bond with their dragons without the use of the dragon horn.

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I'm curious about something:

What if anything is the significance of Dany being able to hear Drogon's song before he was ever hatched?

Having his spirit reach out to her before he was ever hatched makes me wonder if there is something unique about this bond, even within the context of other Dragon Lords. At this moment we don't have that information (TPATQ), however, if Rhaegal and Viserion have riders who are are also POV's we do know that those riders were not contacted by their respective dragons prior to hatching.

It's possible that Drogon really is the 'reincarnation' of Balerion the Black Dread, as some character speculated (I don't remember which), but that isn't really substantiated at all.

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I'm curious about something:

What if anything is the significance of Dany being able to hear Drogon's song before he was ever hatched?

Having his spirit reach out to her before he was ever hatched makes me wonder if there is something unique about this bond, even within the context of other Dragon Lords. At this moment we don't have that information (TPATQ), however, if Rhaegal and Viserion have riders who are are also POV's we do know that those riders were not contacted by their respective dragons prior to hatching.

I think there is a difference.It is the same difference i note with Jon and Ghost on the day they found the pups and again on the Skirling Pass.

Ghost is the only of the Direwolves who called to his proxy.He was the only one that heard,probably because Jon was going to leave him but again the importance is only Jon could hear it.His bond is different than the others too their Direwolves

I think the same thing happened with Dany,as with Jon.

As to the other Dragon riders for all we know they are long dead,not born yet or don't even realize they heard the song.Those petrified eggs might have been there forever if not for Dany.

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If I remember correctly the Dragon Lord families of Valyria all used the dragon horn to tame their dragons except for the Targaryens.

Thus, it makes you wonder how were the Targaryens able to form a natural bond with their dragons without the use of the dragon horn.

I don't recall that at all. The Valyrians controlled their dragons with horns, whips, and sorcery, but the mechanics are extremely vague. TPatQ suggest that the dragons choose their riders, not the other way around, and that the Targ kids were raised next to an egg from birth. Maybe the top families in Valyria were the top families because dragons just liked them more, and they used their magic/horns/whips to control the 'wild' dragons, like Cannibal and Sheepstealer. Maybe continued use of the magic imbued dragonbinding into their DNA.

Sorry to go off topic...

Back to the OP. What about Val singing around (but not to) the little monster?

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I think there is a difference.It is the same difference i note with Jon and Ghost on the day they found the pups and again on the Skirling Pass.

Ghost is the only of the Direwolves who called to his proxy.He was the only one that heard,probably because Jon was going to leave him but again the importance is only Jon could hear it.His bond is different than the others too their Direwolves

I think the same thing happened with Dany,as with Jon.

Hmmm, yes I can see that.

I agree with you that the direowlves were sent to the Starks as the dragons were sent to Dany and I would also agree that Drogon and Ghost may be special in more ways than the other drewolves and dragons. I think the connection of the red eyes and the opposite colors (black and white) might also be an additional factor that is rarely explores.

I don't know what the eventual connection between Jon and Dany will be (aside from them being family) but I do find it very curious that he has a white direwolf and she has a black dragon both with (molten) red eyes.

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The whole Drogon singing to Dany before his hatching in her dream should certainly debunk the ever growing concept (especially with the new novellas) that no special blood is required(or at least extremely advantageous) to ride a dragon, and that its simply a matter of lost knowledge that only the Targs held on too. ( And why would this aspect of "fire" magic so greatly deviate from "ice" magic i.e skinchanging and or greenseeing, which is clearly a matter of having First Men blood?) The Dragonlord families of Old Valryia clearly had some latent magic in their genes akin to the Starks/First Men and their magic


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I'm curious about something:

What if anything is the significance of Dany being able to hear Drogon's song before he was ever hatched?

Having his spirit reach out to her before he was ever hatched makes me wonder if there is something unique about this bond, even within the context of other Dragon Lords. At this moment we don't have that information (TPATQ), however, if Rhaegal and Viserion have riders who are are also POV's we do know that those riders were not contacted by their respective dragons prior to hatching.

Dude! I'm telling you the answer is that the Targs binded closer with their dragons than others did, they had the foresight to leave Valyria and no one else did. Even though they were not the most prominent or prestigious among the dragonlords, they were, IMO, the most magic. Drogon and Dany's connection is more powerful than other drgaon connections we have seen. In PaTQ we see Targ children trying to bond with their live eggs. Dany was not trying, as she didnt know they were live eggs. Drogon sang to her when he was still fossilized, which means it was his spirit or his soul singing to her and connecting.

I disagree with what Bael Able said above about Drogon being Balerion reincarnated for the following reasons;

Drogon is not of the same line of dragons as Balerion, Drogon came form a fossilized eggs from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, he is in no way related to preivous line of Targeryen Dragons from Valyria. GRRM has said that there were once dragons all over the world, which means they came from other places than just Valyria. My guess is that Drogons egg cluster is leftover from that era on Planetos.

Dany is the mother of this new line of dragons, so she is making an original first time bond with them, they have no prior links to any family or person. So it would make sense that Drogon would come to her in this way with his song to connect with her on a dream/spiritual level. It shows that their bond is not just physical or temporary, it goes so much deeper than that.

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The whole Drogon singing to Dany before his hatching in her dream should certainly debunk the ever growing concept (especially with the new novellas) that no special blood is required(or at least extremely advantageous) to ride a dragon, and that its simply a matter of lost knowledge that only the Targs held on too. ( And why would this aspect of "fire" magic so greatly deviate from "ice" magic i.e skinchanging and or greenseeing, which is clearly a matter of having First Men blood?) The Dragonlord families of Old Valryia clearly had some latent magic in their genes akin to the Starks/First Men and their magic

Yes very astute, I agree :) They certainly have magic in them, there is no question about it, anyone who says otherwise is letting their personal preferences get in the way of seeing the writing clearly. Just a few more months and we will get the history book which will confirm much of this I believe!!!!! :)

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