[Book Spoilers] Role reversal on the Wall?

[joaozinm]

i am convinced. grenn will die with the giant.

[Good Guy Garlan]

i am convinced. grenn will die with the giant.

You shut your face! (But yeah, he totally will)

[Gendels Children]

The below is from trailers, so you may not want to know what's apparently happening:

Aren't there clips in trailers of Tormund fighting Alliser, and of Grenn in the tunnel? Plus Grenn's support of Jon's suggestion could be ironic foreshadowing of the prediction by many that

Grenn will be the one to die stopping the giant.

ohhh i hadn't heard that one before but it sounds great!... but very sad, i mean i dont want that to happen to him but it would be good from a story stand point.

IMO the whole blocking the tunnel through the wall thing is, yes, solely to show off jons intelligence and tragically clever mind. it is a good obvious thing to have rubbed in their noses also.

im a little worried in how jons story arc is progressing this season also. they are making jon more assertive and actually giving him the chance to be the one whose seeing the right moves and trying to make them, which is great! but i kind of seems too little too late, Jon was made to seen like such a whinny emo little teenage screw up, its actions now almost seem a little hard to swallow. i understand they are trying, but it kind off seems like a cheap move, like -oh he's had sex and now he's suddenly a man and knows everything- or something, its just a little rushed and doesn't really do his book character any justice.

[Arkash]

IIRC, Jon wanted to seal the tunnels before the battle, it's only after it, when things settled and talk with the Free Folk started that he was against the idea.

[Mark Antony]

You shut your face! (But yeah, he totally will)

You shut your face! (Seriously shut up :crying:)

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

I agree with most of what you said, but I think you're dumbing down John's progression on the show. It started when he went on the ranging. He coulda been as emo as anyone would want to call him back at Castle Black, but he came into his own north of the Wall. From Craster's, to capturing and sparing Ygritte,killing the halfhand,falling in love and choosing to honor his vows over his heart (paging Robb Stark). He's grown up quite a bit from the whiny steward from seasons 1-2 IMHO.

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

sorry my quotes ain't workin for some reason.

[Yojimbo]

I like this change. It (like other bits and pieces) are developing Jon Snow as competent leader material, thereby making the LC election far less contrived than it is in the book.

Not having a go, but why did you think Jon LC candidacy in the elections (book) was contrived? Because of the Mormonts raven?

If you knew that you were facing an army in the tens of thousands, and you only had several hundred to defend, sealing up your defences is easily the most logical choice.

That was covered in the book aswell, when the wildlings started to attack the tunnel gate they dropped 'ice' barrels on top of there heads. When the barrels bonced and hit of the surface of the wall, 'bits' of the wall broke off, having tons of ice drop on top off the wildlings and closing off the tunnels entrance at the same time. Making the wildlings have to dig out tons of ice, before they could even try to open the gate, all at the same time as the Night Watch are raining down on them with ice barrels, arrows and burning pitch.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Not having a go, but why did you think Jon LC candidacy in the elections (book) was contrived? Because of the Mormonts raven?

- It required Mallister and Pyke to act like idiots (if either had sought to verify Sam's story, it'd have fallen over).

- It required Jeor Mormont taking leave of his senses and leading most other potential candidates to their doom.

- It required the Night's Watch to be sufficiently stupid as to give the fingers to the most powerful man in the realm. With winter coming.

- It required the Night's Watch to be sufficiently stupid as to choose a 16 year old accused traitor. With winter coming.

- It required Mallister and Pyke (and everyone older than 30) to give up their last realistic shot at the LC job. Compromise candidates are normally elderly for a reason.

- Jon didn't do anything. He simply sat there, not even bothering to vote.

That was covered in the book aswell, when the wildlings started to attack the tunnel gate they dropped 'ice' barrels on top of there heads. When the barrels bonced and hit of the surface of the wall, 'bits' of the wall broke off, having tons of ice drop on top off the wildlings and closing off the tunnels entrance at the same time. Making the wildlings have to dig out tons of ice, before they could even try to open the gate, all at the same time as the Night Watch are raining down on them with ice barrels, arrows and burning pitch.

You can't aim properly from 700 feet. And it is far easier to dig through loose ice and snow than it is to dig through a properly sealed ice-tunnel.

[Fat Trell]

When I read the books, I felt like sealing the Wall wasn't a bad idea. Ranging seemed way too dangerous at that point, Jon kept sending the best men at his disposal off to die for information that didn't seem that helpful.

It makes sense to seal the Wall here. Odd that they made it a plot point though.

The bigger issue with Jon remains that he's such a sullen brat. Anytime he is refused anything he acts exactly as he did in aGoT when he was placed in the stewards. Despite all the growth he's supposedly undergone, he doesn't come off as an adult in the slightest.

Question; how would you reopen a gate once sealed?

[Yojimbo]

- It required Mallister and Pyke to act like idiots (if either had sought to verify Sam's story, it'd have fallen over).

So your saying two people can't hate each other? And not distrust each other? Who ever said being 'blinded' by hate made some one smart?

- It required Jeor Mormont taking leave of his senses and leading most other potential candidates to their doom.

Well, am pretty sure if Mormount had a crystal ball and actually knew about the Others (not just the wights) he probly would have had second thoughts about taking his men out to find out what is happening with the wildlings, why his First Ranger has gone missing and two of the men who set out with him turned up dead, only to be reanimated as walking corpse's.

- It required the Night's Watch to be sufficiently stupid as to give the fingers to the most powerful man in the realm. With winter coming.

Well, the last time they sent a Brother out to King's Landing to report on the wights and ask for help, look how that turned out. Why shouldn't the Night Watch send out other requests for help, when they didn't recieve the help they asked for the first time, they where only given the dregs from there dungeons and they didn't even show up. When what they really needed is well trained knights and men-at-arms, Tywin could have sent men, he didn't he saw it as an insult and a sign of betrayal.

- It required the Night's Watch to be sufficiently stupid as to choose a 16 year old accused traitor. With winter coming.

You mean the same 'traitor' 16 year old, who reported back to Castle Black on the incoming wildling attack, stopped the wildlings from taking Castle Black and then held Mance's and his army back for several days until the rest of the Brothers returned from East Watch, who was a steward to the last LC precisely for the role for being tutored in leadership. Not to mention being as Ned Stark was Warden of the North and being the actual brother of Benjen Stark, I have a hard time believeing most north men in the watch believed he was ever a traitor anyway.

- It required Mallister and Pyke (and everyone older than 30) to give up their last realistic shot at the LC job. Compromise candidates are normally elderly for a reason.

Mallister a old man who propley wouldn't even see the next summer and Pyke who can't even read or write and is on the brink of the twilight years himself where the leading candidates, yet a 16 year old who could read and write couldn't do what they could do? I guess then if age is reason alone, then Alexander the Great must have been in his 90's right?

- Jon didn't do anything. He simply sat there, not even bothering to vote.

He did nothing? You mean dealing with Stannis the king who saved the Night's Watch and the realm from the wildling invasion was nothing? Or the fact that Jon even didn't have to put his name forward because his friends where making the effort of doing that for him.

You can't aim properly from 700 feet. And it is far easier to dig through loose ice and snow than it is to dig through a properly sealed ice-tunnel.

Are they just going to 'wish' the tunnel is to be sealed frozen shut? Where are they going to get that amount of unfrozen water water prey tell? Because if they are going to start melting snow and ice then, the Nights Watch better start chopping down insane amounts of tree's to get the fire's going.

And you don't have to 'aim', you drop a barrel off the wall perpendicular to the gate and let gravity do the rest, what is so hard about that?. And I don't know where you live but when I've got to dig a few feet of just snow out of my drive-way when it winter it never been 'easy' work and that's with the benefit of not having arrows, barrels of ice and burning pitch raining down on my head..........I couldn't even imagine what it must be like to try to break up and clear blocks of ice that weigh a few tons and being assulted by deadly objects at the same time would be like............

And even if they did manage to some how block the tunnel with ice in time before Mance arrived, wouldn't Mance just go attack at East Watch or Shadow Tower, wouldn't the Watch have to start this process of all over again?

[Fightbringer]

isnt it possible that jon may disagree with sealing the gate in the later situation? when that happens in aDwD the wildlings have been defeated an largely broke, and although they still pose a threat, jon maintains a hope of bringing them through the wall to fight with them against the WW, which they would need the gate to do. Right now, thats unlikely to happen, cos the wildlings havent been defeated, and Mance still leads them, and he wouldnt agree to that proposal.

[The Unborn]

I don't think so. It would just be a matter of filling the tunnel partially. If they can do that for the entire tunnel, than they should be able to do that for part of the tunnel.

If you block the entrance so that only one man at a time could pass, how the horses are gonna get through ?

[Chebyshov]

isnt it possible that jon may disagree with sealing the gate in the later situation? when that happens in aDwD the wildlings have been defeated an largely broke, and although they still pose a threat, jon maintains a hope of bringing them through the wall to fight with them against the WW, which they would need the gate to do. Right now, thats unlikely to happen, cos the wildlings havent been defeated, and Mance still leads them, and he wouldnt agree to that proposal.

This. Unless Jon suddenly can see the future, the idea to seal the tunnel makes the most sense for the NW now.

[Frumpus]

Yarwyck is the character everyone has assumed is Bowen Marsh.

And he finally had lines for the first time ever. Though his delivery shows the guy was never much of an actor.

[Ruin]

Great Yarwyck intro. There were a couple more guys sitting with Thorne and Janos. I wonder if we'll get some more introductions in the last couple episodes.

[six]

Honestly, regardless of what happened in the books, whether it was credible Jon would become LC, or what they've done with Jon's arc up to season 4 (a mess that's what they've done) I'm just sooo pleased with Jon this season. I think the lead up to be LC makes sense in the context of the show, and this Jon is miles better than how he was.

[Carne]

And he finally had lines for the first time ever. Though his delivery shows the guy was never much of an actor.

I think that's rather unfair to say. He has a few lines in season 1 and one word so far in season 4. Going by IMDb he has had a long career in Ireland.

[Runaway Penguin]

I like this change. It (like other bits and pieces) are developing Jon Snow as competent leader material, thereby making the LC election far less contrived than it is in the book.

If you knew that you were facing an army in the tens of thousands, and you only had several hundred to defend, sealing up your defences is easily the most logical choice.

I disagree. Gate is narrow, easily defensible - and naturally channeling enemy strength into killing ground. Block it and enemy, once he finds himself without the gate, will go over the Wall. Plus sealing the gate robs you of your eyes and ears in the wilderness. It would make even more sense to block the Gate after Wildling defeat, when it was the Others out there... Yet Lord Commander made decision not to block it. Against bigger threat.

It is just inconsistent with the character. If the writers want to show it as "smart move, because Giant got through the outer gate", they missed the point. The dead giant blocked it pretty well.

Besides if it is intended that way, Jon will end up being a fool knowing nothing when Stannis comes ;)

[Veltigar]

If you block the entrance so that only one man at a time could pass, how the horses are gonna get through ?

I meant block the entrance so that one man, leading his garron by hand could get through