Why not Stannis? [Possible WoW Spoilers]

[Osha13]

Stannis doesn't deserve it. He knew there were traitors in Roberts midst in Kings Landing when John Arryn died, and he fled the capital. He was sour about Eddard Stark being offered the position of hand of the king, among other things, so he went to Dragonstone leaving his brother in the vicinity of John Arryn's unknown killer. His brothers hand of the king just died, he should have been thinking about more then getting the position for himself. I bet this played a part in Renly making his claim. Stannis didn't try to tell anyone about Joffrey being a bastard until it was time for him to make his claim to the throne. He is a good character in my opinion, but his decision making when Jon Arryn died, coupled with his approval of Mel burning infidels and making shadow babies, makes me question how successful he will really be in the end. But we will have to see.

[devilrob6]

Stannis doesn't deserve it. He knew there were traitors in Roberts midst in Kings Landing when John Arryn died, and he fled the capital. He was sour about Eddard Stark being offered the position of hand of the king, among other things, so he went to Dragonstone leaving his brother in the vicinity of John Arryn's unknown killer. His brothers hand of the king just died, he should have been thinking about more then getting the position for himself. I bet this played a part in Renly making his claim. Stannis didn't try to tell anyone about Joffrey being a bastard until it was time for him to make his claim to the throne. He is a good character in my opinion, but his decision making when Jon Arryn died, coupled with his approval of Mel burning infidels and making shadow babies, makes me question how successful he will really be in the end. But we will have to see.

Stannis was convinced that Robert would never believe him. That is not a strange, considering the history between them. Also Robert was not in much danger as long as he didn't know about the incest. I'm a bit puzzled what Stannis plan was before Robert died, but he had no friends in KL and probably wanted to strengten his power and be in a safer position before confronting the Lannisters. LF's scheming, the murder attempt on Bran, Ned's investigation and mistake to confront Cersei are all things Stannis could not have anticipated and all these things caused that Robert died before Stannis could act. Even if Stannis could have acted in a better way, i don't believe he ever thought that Robert was in immediate danger.

Revealing the incest was done after Joffrey was on the throne and after Stannis did not get the support of the stormlands. It was a strategy to weaken the support for the Lannisters and to cause doubts about Joffrey. Stannis allows burnings of criminals (traitors, cannibals, night watch deserter..) and he actually prevents Mel and the Queen's men from burning people for religious reasons (f.i. the pray harder quote). I don't have a problem with the shadowbabies. How is that worse than dragons, direwolfs, faceless men, warging and other magic powers that people root for because the fan favourites can do it? Both shadowbabies prevented many deaths in battle.

[Mourneblade]

Stannis doesn't deserve it. He knew there were traitors in Roberts midst in Kings Landing when John Arryn died, and he fled the capital. He was sour about Eddard Stark being offered the position of hand of the king, among other things, so he went to Dragonstone leaving his brother in the vicinity of John Arryn's unknown killer. His brothers hand of the king just died, he should have been thinking about more then getting the position for himself. I bet this played a part in Renly making his claim. Stannis didn't try to tell anyone about Joffrey being a bastard until it was time for him to make his claim to the throne. He is a good character in my opinion, but his decision making when Jon Arryn died, coupled with his approval of Mel burning infidels and making shadow babies, makes me question how successful he will really be in the end. But we will have to see.

You cannot protect someone from themselves all the time, especially someone as head strong as Robert. Same thing happened with Dany and Viserys, there is only so much you can do before you go, you made your bed you gotta lie in it.

[Osha13]

Stannis was convinced that Robert would never believe him. That is not a strange, considering the history between them. Also Robert was not in much danger as long as he didn't know about the incest. I'm a bit puzzled what Stannis plan was before Robert died, but he had no friends in KL and probably wanted to strengten his power and be in a safer position before confronting the Lannisters. LF's scheming, the murder attempt on Bran, Ned's investigation and mistake to confront Cersei are all things Stannis could not have anticipated and all these things caused that Robert died before Stannis could act. Even if Stannis could have acted in a better way, i don't believe he ever thought that Robert was in immediate danger.

It was Stannis' own fault that he did not have any friends in Kings Landing. Before he fled, he could have consulted with his younger brother Renly and told him that he was leaving because him and Jon Arryn discovered the incest and he felt that Jon Arryn was killed because of it. Him just fleeing the capital and leaving his two brothers Renly and Robert in the midst of Jon Arryn's killer(s) while not telling either of them why he was doing it, was weak. Even if he feared for his life, he should have talked with one of his two brothers before departing. He could have shown Renly the book that convinced Jon Arryn of the incest, and stressed the need for secrecy until they had everything in place to make a move. Stannis didn't do any of this, while being sour about not being named hand of the king at the same time, and with the knowledge that Roberts kids were not his own. With this knowledge, Stannis also knew that he was rightfully the next in the line of succession after Robert. This could be interpreted as Stannis caring more about his own claim, than about the safety of his brothers. The mere fact that he thought Jon Arryn was even killed for them knowing about the incest, shows that Stannis should have felt Robert was in danger. Jon Arryn was the hand of the king. It doesn't get much closer to his brother Robert than that.

Also, had Stannis talked with Renly before fleeing, maybe Renly wouldn't have been so rash in making his claim to the throne. We never had a POV from Renly, and he could have felt Stannis betrayed his brothers by leaving. This could have also been a perception that the storm lords and the Tyrells had to. It would be understandable why they felt that way if they did. Renly stayed by his brother's side until the end, and only left when Eddard refused to take Joffrey and his siblings away from Cersei and into their custody, Stannis left as soon as Eddard was named Hand of the King and from what we have seen, made no attempt whatsoever to let Robert or Renly know about Jaime and Cersei being the real parents of Robert's children.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Yeah give one of the untrusting of him brothers information that'd already gotten another man killed, whats more give them that information in KL a place notorious for spies, spies you can only assume get info back to Cersie one way or another and therefore probably responsible for the death of Jon Arryn. Or he could've sent them a letter from Dragonstone, letters seen and read by the reliable Pycelle. Or he could've told Ned, Ned who is Jon Arryn 2.0 and would go through the same steps only to suffer the same fate.

There is no right or wrong answer here, its just a bad situation to end up in.

[A True Kaniggit]

Why not Stannis? Because he is not the one prophecied to defeat the Others. From the book that Aemon gave Jon we learned that the magic sword is supposed to give off heat. All it does for Stannis is shine, because like Aemon said he's a false hope. I'm guessing that when it's real owner gets a hold of the sword it's gonna get hot as hell.

[A Man Has Said]

It was Stannis' own fault that he did not have any friends in Kings Landing. Before he fled, he could have consulted with his younger brother Renly and told him that he was leaving because him and Jon Arryn discovered the incest and he felt that Jon Arryn was killed because of it. Him just fleeing the capital and leaving his two brothers Renly and Robert in the midst of Jon Arryn's killer(s) while not telling either of them why he was doing it, was weak. Even if he feared for his life, he should have talked with one of his two brothers before departing. He could have shown Renly the book that convinced Jon Arryn of the incest, and stressed the need for secrecy until they had everything in place to make a move. Stannis didn't do any of this, while being sour about not being named hand of the king at the same time, and with the knowledge that Roberts kids were not his own. With this knowledge, Stannis also knew that he was rightfully the next in the line of succession after Robert. This could be interpreted as Stannis caring more about his own claim, than about the safety of his brothers. The mere fact that he thought Jon Arryn was even killed for them knowing about the incest, shows that Stannis should have felt Robert was in danger. Jon Arryn was the hand of the king. It doesn't get much closer to his brother Robert than that.

Also, had Stannis talked with Renly before fleeing, maybe Renly wouldn't have been so rash in making his claim to the throne. We never had a POV from Renly, and he could have felt Stannis betrayed his brothers by leaving. This could have also been a perception that the storm lords and the Tyrells had to. It would be understandable why they felt that way if they did. Renly stayed by his brother's side until the end, and only left when Eddard refused to take Joffrey and his siblings away from Cersei and into their custody, Stannis left as soon as Eddard was named Hand of the King and from what we have seen, made no attempt whatsoever to let Robert or Renly know about Jaime and Cersei being the real parents of Robert's children.

Pretty much. Supporters of Saint Stainless Baratheon (who is NOT a character in the novels, but one that they made up in their collective heads - fan fiction, IMO) don't want him ever to take responsibility for any of his own actions, and make up excuses from thin air.

"Robert wouldn't have believed him?" (~ All the Stainless fans say this.)

Well, WHY wouldn't Robert have believed him? Because Robert despised him.

Why did Robert despise him, when Robert seemed to be pretty easy going and liked nearly everybody?

Because Stannis was a bitter, petty, grudging sourpuss since childhood.

As far as his supporters are concerned everything that Saint Stainless did was the ONLY thing he could have done. Abandoned Robert? No choice, he HAD to. Hid in Dragonstone for over a year, until after Robert's death? He had no other options. Killed Renly? Damn, Renly was SO in his face (after Stannis traveled 1,000 miles to besiege Storm's End - as a means of defeating the Lannisters? Really?)

Everyone else in these novels is held to a certain standard - whatever their actual behaviour is, they are deemed to have CHOSEN to do that thing, and that makes them responsible for the consequences.

Ned CHOSE to tell Cersei he knew of the twincest and planned to expose her.

Catelyn CHOSE to free Jaime Lannister in a misguided attempt at a prisoner exchange.

Oberyn CHOSE to gloat over The Mountain before Clegane was actually dead.

Renly CHOSE to ally with the Tyrells and declare war on Joffrey and the Lannisters.

...etc., etc., etc.,..

What is it about Saint Stainless that puts him in a different category?

Is he wearing some kind of narrative strait jacket or something?

Inquiring minds would like an answer to that. I've never seen it explained.

[Knight of the Teabags]

Why not Stannis? Because he is not the one prophecied to defeat the Others. From the book that Aemon gave Jon we learned that the magic sword is supposed to give off heat. All it does for Stannis is shine, because like Aemon said he's a false hope. I'm guessing that when it's real owner gets a hold of the sword it's gonna get hot as hell.

Consider for a moment that it is actually possible that the chosen one and whoever sits on the Iron Throne aren't necessarily going to be the same person. In fact considering the whole Azor Ahai deal may well ultimately involve the sacrifice of the individual concerned in winning the War for Dawn, it could very well be left for a 'lesser' mortal to pick up the pieces and rule afterwards. Afterall we hear absolutely nothing about what the original Azor Ahai did after winning the War for Dawn certainly not a golden age of 'King Azor Ahai'.

Besides I seriously doubt even a bonafide chosen one is going to defeat the Others all on their own - certainly not in this fantasy series. So there is room for other heroes as well, in fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if the big hero (and I am not even suggesting it might be Stannis) of this age will ultimately overshadow the prophesied one - as real heroes for their own time tend to be more impressive than manufactured ones.

As for Stannis at this stage of war suffering, blooded and bruised I think certain areas of the realm may finally be ready to buy into what he's offering. Strangely enough the thing which was most off putting about Stannis at the beginning of the war, his reputation of being utterly strict in upholding the letter of the law may well now become his greatest appeal. After all thanks the Lannisters winning round one of the Game by basically cheating there are now plenty of criminals in the realm who a lot of upset people would like to have made pay for their crimes. Putting Stannis on the Throne is arguably the most likely way of making that happen.

Most Northmen now I believe want revenge on the Freys, Boltons and Lannisters and would probably be to prepared to drop the whole independent Kingdom of the North dream in favour of achieving that. Similarly the Riverlands want to get rid of the Freys, the Vale Littlefinger, Balon Greyjoy's daughter wants to get rid of her usurping uncle in favour of her brother's rightful claim (and through him hers) and the Iron Bank wants the Iron Throne to start paying the interest it owes again. Supporting Stannis is a way of all those who have been wronged by the Lannisters and their allies to reverse their fortunes and get revenge.

Finally the raise of the Faith Militant gives Stannis an opportunity to gain support by a subtle rebranding of his religious policy - actually arguably more emphasising the way it always has been. The truth with Stannis' faction is despite the vocal supporters of Rh'llor they've always been a mixed bunch on faith - no more so than in his current army which follows at least four different religious faiths - Rh'llor, the Old Gods, the Seven and the Drowned God - five if you count Stannis himself and Ser Richard Horpe as atheists. So in my opinion the smart move on Stannis' part with the new fundamentalist High Septon in King's Landing and to solve the discord in his army is to come out as the Defender of Religious Freedoms in Westeros simply say 'I care not which gods you follow so long as you recognize me as your liege lord and King and do not breach the laws of this land - I will defend your right to hold whatever beliefs you like'. By doing such he becomes a candidate of choice for holders of the minor faiths in Westeros who feel threatened by the Faith Militant and potentially also towards for more moderate followers of the Seven.

Not that I necessarily believe Stannis will take such a path but I would consider a smart move on his part to do so.

[Sullen]

Nope, Stannis is as doomed as Aegon and Tommen are.

Dead men walking.

[Osha13]

Yeah give one of the untrusting of him brothers information that'd already gotten another man killed, whats more give them that information in KL a place notorious for spies, spies you can only assume get info back to Cersie one way or another and therefore probably responsible for the death of Jon Arryn. Or he could've sent them a letter from Dragonstone, letters seen and read by the reliable Pycelle. Or he could've told Ned, Ned who is Jon Arryn 2.0 and would go through the same steps only to suffer the same fate.

There is no right or wrong answer here, its just a bad situation to end up in.

I see where you are coming from, but I also feel like there is a right answer, and Stannis should have told Robert, or if he felt Robert wouldn't believe him, then at least tell Renly and show him the book and stress the need for secrecy until they have a plan in place before fleeing. He protected himself for certain, and fled with doubts about his brothers' safety. If Stannis felt that Jon Arryn was killed because they found out about the incest, then he would be thinking that there are people willing to kill to protect this secret. In addition to Stannis believing that someone killed Jon Arryn to protect the secret incest, Stannis knew that Joffrey's real father was part of Robert's own Kingsguard. The list of people that could be killed to protect this secret extends all the way to Stannis' brother King Robert, as Joffrey sitting the throne is reliant on Robert not finding out the truth. Based on this, how is it advantageous or helpful to Robert for Stannis to flee? There is already the possibility that these people willing to kill think that the secret has been leaked, so the only person that fleeing would benefit for certain, is Stannis. While Stannis knows that he hasn't talked to anybody, and that there is a good chance Jon Arryn hadn't talked either, how does Stannis know the people that killed Jon Arryn know that for sure? Robert should have already been considered in imminent danger with what Stannis knew. It is hard to believe that Stannis felt he was protecting Robert when he knew the things that he did.

[Sir Lee knot]

Why can't he win? Well let's see...

- Currently has the weakest army out of all the players.

- He has to defeat the Boltons while currently being outnumbered, starving and lost in the snow.

- He has to survive all the northern traitory if any part of the GNC proves true which it most likely will.

- Survive winter and the Others

- Go south to deal with the Tyrells, Aegon, Dany and the Iron born. All of who are much more powerful then him and have less then a single reason to ally with him.

So he has about a 1% chance of succeeding above all the rest. Of course this is a story so anything can happen but in the same story there are people who have more plot development and foreshadowing to succeed.

[The Bittersteel]

Simply put as much as I like him as a character he's the wrong man for the throne.

-Foreign religion

-No male heir

-Uncompromising

-Unforgiving

-Unpopular

Even if he managed to win it, he would not sit the throne for long.

Edit: He's also already married leaving no chance for a marriage alliance.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Pretty much. Supporters of Saint Stainless Baratheon (who is NOT a character in the novels, but one that they made up in their collective heads - fan fiction, IMO) don't want him ever to take responsibility for any of his own actions, and make up excuses from thin air.

"Robert wouldn't have believed him?" (~ All the Stainless fans say this.)

Well, WHY wouldn't Robert have believed him? Because Robert despised him.

Why did Robert despise him, when Robert seemed to be pretty easy going and liked nearly everybody?

Because Stannis was a bitter, petty, grudging sourpuss since childhood.

As far as his supporters are concerned everything that Saint Stainless did was the ONLY thing he could have done. Abandoned Robert? No choice, he HAD to. Hid in Dragonstone for over a year, until after Robert's death? He had no other options. Killed Renly? Damn, Renly was SO in his face (after Stannis traveled 1,000 miles to besiege Storm's End - as a means of defeating the Lannisters? Really?)

Everyone else in these novels is held to a certain standard - whatever their actual behaviour is, they are deemed to have CHOSEN to do that thing, and that makes them responsible for the consequences.

Ned CHOSE to tell Cersei he knew of the twincest and planned to expose her.

Catelyn CHOSE to free Jaime Lannister in a misguided attempt at a prisoner exchange.

Oberyn CHOSE to gloat over The Mountain before Clegane was actually dead.

Renly CHOSE to ally with the Tyrells and declare war on Joffrey and the Lannisters.

...etc., etc., etc.,..

What is it about Saint Stainless that puts him in a different category?

Is he wearing some kind of narrative strait jacket or something?

Inquiring minds would like an answer to that. I've never seen it explained.

But of course, this is exactly what we need in this thread, extreme hyperbole taken from no actual posts in this thread. And having read your opinion on Stannis, while I'll admit the man is flawed, you are definitely the last person to be accusing anyone of fan fiction. I mean, when you talk about Stannis' attack on Renly and then scoff at the notion of it being a means to defeat the Lannisters when, as I've said a million times before, the mindset of the one true King of Westeros (and being a King immediately makes him a worse person, because they have to do worse things as a matter of course) is that all usurpers are enemies and hey, killing the most dangerous one and taking his men so you can deal with the rest would be pretty useful. Don't you think?

Why do we have to justify why Stannis thinks Robert wouldn't believe him? Its Stannis mind, its what he thinks, thats why he acted like he did. Why do we have to justify it? I don't get it?

Face it, you guys on the other end are every bit as blockheaded and often more so. The extreme defense of his actions usually comes because of the ridiculously extreme accusations thrown his way mixed in with your favourite word, fan-fiction pertaining to his motivations, and its not just Stannis, its Cat, Robb, Daenerys, Sansa and everyone else who's made bad decisions, as though there is a magical answer somewhere that'll mean there is a road to take where everything will work out peachy. The difference is, and I genuinely believe this, a lot of people don't think Stannis has a right to have fans, so when you give them his point of view to justify how he acts especially in the context of the period being reflected, that ain't good enough. We defend the pro's of his actions, when they're attacked people point out the cons and make it seem like the alternatives are ohsowonderful! Oh and hindsight, don't forget hindsight!

Now, what I will concede, is that some people believe that Stannis' attitude that leads to his decision making process is perfect, when it isn't, far from it. Unfortunately, he's not the evil doer you try to paint him as, which then leads to the viscous circle of people like me defending him against ridiculous accusations which then makes it look like I am painting him as a pure white hero. Its a circular thing, until there is progress on your end, there won't be any on ours.

But then you can say that for a lot of characters, its just that I don't care about them. And isn't that what makes foruming so fun?

I see where you are coming from, but I also feel like there is a right answer, and Stannis should have told Robert, or if he felt Robert wouldn't believe him, then at least tell Renly and show him the book and stress the need for secrecy until they have a plan in place before fleeing. He protected himself for certain, and fled with doubts about his brothers' safety. If Stannis felt that Jon Arryn was killed because they found out about the incest, then he would be thinking that there are people willing to kill to protect this secret. In addition to Stannis believing that someone killed Jon Arryn to protect the secret incest, Stannis knew that Joffrey's real father was part of Robert's own Kingsguard. The list of people that could be killed to protect this secret extends all the way to Stannis' brother King Robert, as Joffrey sitting the throne is reliant on Robert not finding out the truth. Based on this, how is it advantageous or helpful to Robert for Stannis to flee? There is already the possibility that these people willing to kill think that the secret has been leaked, so the only person that fleeing would benefit for certain, is Stannis. While Stannis knows that he hasn't talked to anybody, and that there is a good chance Jon Arryn hadn't talked either, how does Stannis know the people that killed Jon Arryn know that for sure? Robert should have already been considered in imminent danger with what Stannis knew. It is hard to believe that Stannis felt he was protecting Robert when he knew the things that he did.

I think the amount of danger Robert was in is debatable, but I think its your best bet that keeping him alive until Joffrey was old enough to rule in his own right was the best thing for the Lannisters because that means less challenges to Lannister rule from other potential regents (Renly) than if Joffrey takes over the Throne as a teenage boy, Robert was useful because he held the realm together and was giving the Lannisters what they wanted at a detriment to his own friends and family, Robert alive was weakening his own cause. Robert was in danger, the same amount of danger he'd been in for the last 13 or so years, Stannis finding that out when he did didn't really change it that much. I can understand why he didn't tell Renly, him and Renly didn't share the same interests, Stannis just wanted to do his duty and have justice done, whereas Renly only kept the name Baratheon instead of taking Tyrell when he married Margeary as a pragmatic idea to potentially gather royalists to his cause. (see, I can go overboard as well :D)

What was Stannis doing on Dragonstone? Gathering swords, we know that much, so he wasn't idle. To what end? We don't know, though Davos never seems to think that he was biding his time waiting for Robert to die, we can only speculate that he thought he had more time than he did. Or you could be really extreme and say that maybe he was planning to usurp Robert. You know, there are pros and cons on both sides, Stannis made the decision he made.

[Knight of the Teabags]

Pretty much. Supporters of Saint Stainless Baratheon (who is NOT a character in the novels, but one that they made up in their collective heads - fan fiction, IMO) don't want him ever to take responsibility for any of his own actions, and make up excuses from thin air.

And you sir go too far the other way by assuming everybody who makes excuses for a character's actions is condoning those actions.

I suppose I am a supporter of Stannis in that I consider him of the all awful candidates for the Iron Throne the one who has the most to offer Westeros in the long term, That said Stannis is definitely a very grey character, I certainly wouldn't accuse him of having an excess of valour. He does have his brave moments - I personally commend him for choosing Robert (the brother he never liked) over Aerys (the King who would have that brother executed for no reason what so ever and likely given his seat to Stannis his younger brother) during the Rebellion and risked his own life to do so. Yet years later he lets Robert down (potentially fatally) when he gets scared and runs to Dragonstone after Jon Arryn his co-conspirator in investigating the Twincest is murdered by persons unknown, What Stannis did then was far from admirable, however it is equally far from villainous, what it is just very human.

I find it very interesting to have characters who can be so morally brave at one moment of their lives and then have their courage fail them at another - it is like real life. Yes it would have been commendable for Stannis to come out and told Robert what he suspected, but I can also understand why his many doubts about Robert's reaction on that knowledge and after the death of Jon Arryn (the only man on the Small Council he came to trust well enough to confide these suspicions with) how those scheming around Robert might have played things fatally against Stannis ultimately I see why he choose discretion over valour. My personal belief on Dragonstone after Arryn's murder Stannis was pretty much like he was after Blackwater and when choosing between Robert and Aerys agonizing over what he should do next with the knowledge he had in his head and how to tell Robert with least personal risk to himself. Could he really trust Ned Stark a man he hardly knew? Ned was supposed to be Robert's best friend - but then Stannis knew all about Robert's 'friends'. Hell! Maybe Ned even did the murder to be the Hand instead of Arryn because Jon was blocking Ned's plans to marry Sansa to Joffrey? Based on what little Stannis knew about Ned and how bloody cynical Stannis is about human nature in general I really don't think he knew Ned well enough to rule him out as a suspect especially when you consider on the surface Ned Stark seems to gain the most from Arryn's death. I genuinely believe Stannis intended to tell Robert as soon as he worked out the best way to do it (after Arryn's death) and we can speculate whether subconsciously he was hoping for Robert to die before he came to a decision certainly decision making became easier for Stannis after Robert died! As I say not admirable but very human.

I certainly don't think Stannis is a particularly nice person far from it! None the less I do think many of his personality quirks could directly lead to a better governed Westeros if he were to take the Iron Throne, Take the fact he has such a low opinion of human nature - the direct result of this is that the only councillors who end up wielding any real influence in Stannis' court are those show real loyalty, good ideas with real results, play by the rules and have courage in their convictions - say what you like about Davos and Melisandre they both display these qualities and those found wanting are either removed (Alester Florent) or sidelined (Selyse, Axell). When Stannis encounters other people who show the qualities he desires in those few he might listen to, he tests them and if their convictions stand up he gives their suggestions real consideration (Jon, Asha). This kind of checks and balances over time can very well lead to an effective team of loyal councillors quite unlike the majority of Robert's small council. I think Stannis in government for a decade could bring about a far less corrupt Westerosi court which could have a lasting impact especially if Stannis completely in character was to do something like write a rulebook which was strictly upheld!

[Osha13]

I think the amount of danger Robert was in is debatable, but I think its your best bet that keeping him alive until Joffrey was old enough to rule in his own right was the best thing for the Lannisters because that means less challenges to Lannister rule from other potential regents (Renly) than if Joffrey takes over the Throne as a teenage boy, Robert was useful because he held the realm together and was giving the Lannisters what they wanted at a detriment to his own friends and family, Robert alive was weakening his own cause. Robert was in danger, the same amount of danger he'd been in for the last 13 or so years, Stannis finding that out when he did didn't really change it that much. I can understand why he didn't tell Renly, him and Renly didn't share the same interests, Stannis just wanted to do his duty and have justice done, whereas Renly only kept the name Baratheon instead of taking Tyrell when he married Margeary as a pragmatic idea to potentially gather royalists to his cause. (see, I can go overboard as well :D)

What was Stannis doing on Dragonstone? Gathering swords, we know that much, so he wasn't idle. To what end? We don't know, though Davos never seems to think that he was biding his time waiting for Robert to die, we can only speculate that he thought he had more time than he did. Or you could be really extreme and say that maybe he was planning to usurp Robert. You know, there are pros and cons on both sides, Stannis made the decision he made.

How do we know that Renly and Stannis didn't share the same interests when Robert was king? They are very different, but at the end of the day they are brothers and should share the same interest of keeping their brother safe and on the throne. If they didn't share this interest with one another, than that shows Stannis' mindset right there. Renly was interested in Robert on the throne, and he was initially trying to get Margaery Tyrell to be Robert's new queen because of his dislike for the Lannisters. And why would Renly take the name Tyrell? There was nothing overboard about what was said. Stannis thought someone killed Jon Arryn to protect the secret of the incest. Did he think it would stop at just Robert's hand? He witnessed first hand, from his own experience and belief, that they were willing to kill to protect that secret. Obviously Stannis never talked to anyone about it, and most likely Jon Arryn didn't, but how did Stannis know that the killers of Jon Arryn knew that for sure? Like I said, when Stannis fled the capital, from his own perspective based on what we know that he was aware of, how could he think it would be advantageous or helpful for Robert? The only person who definitely benefitted from his departure was him, as he had no way of knowing that Jon Arryn's killer was Baelish, and he thought that Jon was killed to try to keep the incest secret. Based on that, he was knowingly leaving his brothers in the midst of someone or some people willing to kill to protect the secret of the incest. Of course this could extend all the way to his brother Robert, because Joffrey eventually sitting the throne, depends upon Robert not learning the truth. When Stannis learned of the incest, he discovered that he was actually NEXT in the line of succession, and soon after he fled the city. It could definitely be interpreted that Stannis abandoned his brothers, and it would seem that the Storm Lords, the Tyrells, and Renly all potentially thought so as well and that is why they didn't support his claim when Robert died.

[Knight of the Teabags]

How do we know that Renly and Stannis didn't share the same interests when Robert was king? .

Good question. We hear precious little about the Small Council in the pre-Ned days. However there is one story which is quite revealing when Stannis comes to the Wall in ASoS during the election of the Lord Commander he tells the Night's Watchmen about how he tried to get Janos Slynt up on corruption charges when he was commander of the City Watch. We know Janos' character well enough by now to suspect there was more than an element of truth to this accusation, we also know Stannis well enough by now to know he wouldn't brought bring up such charges without strong suspicion of guilt. However the case is thrown out.

So what has this to do with Renly? The thing is Renly's position on the Small Council is Master of Laws. So we have a serious charge brought against the chief law enforcement officer in the city but the story doesn't mention Renly once - which is quite telling as Master of Laws this really is Renly's portfolio. Considering you don't need absolute proof to convict a commoner like Slynt (especially when we know Slynt isn't exactly good at hiding his guilt) in Westeros, it is quite telling that Slynt keeps his job. The absence of Renly's opinion on the matter suggests he simply wasn't interested at best...

If Renly indeed let someone as openly corrupt as Janos Slynt off the hook it is quite understandable why Stannis would think twice about trusting with him with anything more important!

[A Man Has Said]

Heh heh. I just wanted to say Stainless Baratheon.

It has a certain, metallic ring to it. :)

It's funny though, because I didn't post saying that Stannis was the worst character in the novels, I just said that it bugs me that so many people spend so much time and energy trying to whitewash him.

Unless you are yourself trying to whitewash him, why would you object to that?

[A Man Has Said]

Good question. We hear precious little about the Small Council in the pre-Ned days. However there is one story which is quite revealing when Stannis comes to the Wall in ASoS during the election of the Lord Commander he tells the Night's Watchmen about how he tried to get Janos Slynt up on corruption charges when he was commander of the City Watch. We know Janos' character well enough by now to suspect there was more than an element of truth to this accusation, we also know Stannis well enough by now to know he wouldn't brought bring up such charges without strong suspicion of guilt. However the case is thrown out.

So what has this to do with Renly? The thing is Renly's position on the Small Council is Master of Laws. So we have a serious charge brought against the chief law enforcement officer in the city but the story doesn't mention Renly once - which is quite telling as Master of Laws this really is Renly's portfolio. Considering you don't need absolute proof to convict a commoner like Slynt (especially when we know Slynt isn't exactly good at hiding his guilt) in Westeros, it is quite telling that Slynt keeps his job. The absence of Renly's opinion on the matter suggests he simply wasn't interested at best...

If Renly indeed let someone as openly corrupt as Janos Slynt off the hook it is quite understandable why Stannis would think twice about trusting with him with anything more important!

I AGREE!! :agree: That's the kind of pro-Stannis stuff I have no problem with at all, because it makes sense.

What gets to me is the irrational rationalization of his many acts that are morally and motivationally suspect.

And as much as I dislike the whitewashing, I truly hate the shabby attempts I keep seeing to make that whitewashing look logical when it simply isn't. But that's what's going to happen when you take something that is clearly bad and try to make it look good. You can polish a turd all you like, it's still a turd.

[Jasta11]

While I don't think his victory will happen, people who are 100% ruling out Stannis for any reason did not, I think, took GRRM's lessons to heart. He loves toying with people's expectations more than anything else, I feel. Nobody expected The Nedless, the shadowbaby, the Red Wedding, Tywin's death, and so many other course of events that look improbable at first glance. In a world with several of the Chosen One kid hero types that are an utter cliche in fantasy (Jon, Dany and Bran being the most obvious offenders), having the very morally grey, hard-nosed, middle-aged guy who's usually a side character in most other stories come out on top (if anyone does, at least) would be, I think, a breath of fresh air. I don't expect him to win, but I would really like him to, if only because he's a much more interesting (NOT morally better) character than the other usual suspects.

[Osha13]

Good question. We hear precious little about the Small Council in the pre-Ned days. However there is one story which is quite revealing when Stannis comes to the Wall in ASoS during the election of the Lord Commander he tells the Night's Watchmen about how he tried to get Janos Slynt up on corruption charges when he was commander of the City Watch. We know Janos' character well enough by now to suspect there was more than an element of truth to this accusation, we also know Stannis well enough by now to know he wouldn't brought bring up such charges without strong suspicion of guilt. However the case is thrown out.

So what has this to do with Renly? The thing is Renly's position on the Small Council is Master of Laws. So we have a serious charge brought against the chief law enforcement officer in the city but the story doesn't mention Renly once - which is quite telling as Master of Laws this really is Renly's portfolio. Considering you don't need absolute proof to convict a commoner like Slynt (especially when we know Slynt isn't exactly good at hiding his guilt) in Westeros, it is quite telling that Slynt keeps his job. The absence of Renly's opinion on the matter suggests he simply wasn't interested at best...

If Renly indeed let someone as openly corrupt as Janos Slynt off the hook it is quite understandable why Stannis would think twice about trusting with him with anything more important!

I get that Renly was Master of Laws when he was on the small council, but it is actually very telling that Stannis doesn't refer to Renly at all in this story when he is talking to Janos Slynt and the Nights Watch. He actually seems to blame Littlefinger and Robert for Janos Slynt not facing the corruption charges. This could mean that Renly was not on the small council at the time of Stannis claiming corruption from Janos Slynt (he was a child still when they won the rebellion), or it could mean that Robert simply shrugged away Janos Slynt's corruption. There is no indication of Renly's position on the matter during this story, so saying that Renly simply shrugged off what Stannis was saying, is speculation. Stannis says that Robert did this, not Renly. Also, Stannis wasn't the only one that felt Janos Slynt was corrupt, based on what he says Jon Arryn knew it to and showed evidence of it. So this can't be taken as simply King Robert throwing out only Stannis' advice. He also disregarded the evidence that Jon Arryn put before the small council, and he potentially could of disregarded a vote of support for the corruption charges from Renly. Stannis doesn't place any blame on Renly when he talks about it, and we as readers have no indication how Renly felt about Jon Arryn and Stannis' claims of Janos Slynt's corruption.

Bowen Marsh: Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold?

Stannis Baratheon: Any one of you I would think. Even the cook. Janos was hardly the first gold cloak to ever take a bribe, I grant you, but he may have been the first commander to fatten his purse by selling places and promotions. By the end, he must have had half the officers in the City Watch paying him part of their wages. Isn't that so, Janos?

Janos: Lies, all lies! A strong man makes enemies, Your Grace, they whisper lies behind your back. Naught was ever proven, not a man came forward...

Stannis: Two men who were prepared to come forward died suddenly on their rounds. Do not trifle with me, my lord, I saw the proofs Jon Arryn laid before the small council. If I had been king, you would have lost more than your office, I promise you that, but Robert shrugged away your little lapses. 'They all steal' I recall him saying. 'Better a thief we know than one we don't, the next man might be worse'. Lord Petyr's words in my brother's mouth, I'll warrant. Littlefinger had a nose for gold, and I'm certain he arranged matters so the crown profited as much from your corruption as you did.^[6]