Opinions of Wheel of Time

[David Selig]

Irrelevant. All that matters is that it's in character.

Sure, he has always been a dumbass.

Though he tends to be even dumber for plot necessity. Like the campaign in question. He could've taken a much bigger army and crush the Seanchan with ease much faster, especially with the Travelling advantage. He had million Aiel, hundreds more Asha'man and thousands of Aiel Wise Ones he could've used. But no, he used a tiny army lead by people he didn't trust.

As ISAM's WoT summaries described this,

Bashere: There are reports of a huge Seanchan army with hundreds of damane advancing towards Illian. You command over a million soldiers, and hundreds of Asha’man.

Rand: I will take 5,000 soldiers and eight Asha’man.

Bashere: It should work. With your mediocre planning and surrounding yourself with those who hate you, once again, you should just barely avoid complete disaster.

A bit of an exaggeration, of course, but not that much.

[Shryke]

Sure, he has always been a dumbass.

Though he tends to be even dumber for plot necessity. Like the campaign in question. He could've taken a much bigger army and crush the Seanchan with ease much faster, especially with the Travelling advantage. He had million Aiel, hundreds more Asha'man and thousands of Aiel Wise Ones he could've used. But no, he used a tiny army lead by people he didn't trust.

No, he's not being a dumbass. He's being overconfident and kinda crazy and paranoid as fuck. Which, again, is in character for him at the time so that's good writing going on. Considering Rand going insane is one of the main plots of the series, this is the kinda of shit we need to see to establish that.

As for the strategy itself, it works. Brilliantly. Your describing it as "dumb" doesn't match the text and doesn't make any sense.

The goal is to push the Seanchan back out of Illian and stop their forward momentum. He takes a small force because the strategy involved requires one. Too many people make the army less mobile and work against the plan. It's well established in the series that even with travelling it takes alot of time because gateways can only be so big and so it takes time for large forces to move through them. Bashere is part of the planning for this strategy too btw.

The force is composed of the disloyal because Rand wants to keep an eye on them, wants them away from their powerbases back home where they can scheme against him and he doesn't mind if they get killed. There's good and bad elements to this plan, but it fits with his massive paranoia.

And the plan works. The whole thing works great and they throw the Seanchan back. But then Rand decides to overextend, against the advice of the people who know what they are talking about. And that mostly works too until it finally all unravels at the end. But his decision to overextend is routed in his character at the time and not what was originally planned which is why his forces don't match the ambition of his strategy.

Everything you are pointing out here is explained perfectly reasonably in the text. A few of you seem to be confusing characters making bad decisions with bad writing. Characters making decisions consistent with their established personalities/beliefs/knowledge/etc is good writing. That's what you want to see. And that's what's going on in this situation.

I mean, shit, most tragedies are based on characters making bad decisions based on personal flaws. That's the goddamn point.

As ISAM's WoT summaries described this,

A bit of an exaggeration, of course, but not that much.

No, it's just stupid. It's the same as describing Batman as a rich man who dresses up to assault the mentally ill. It's a freaking internet meme/joke not substantive commentary:

http://www.postmodernbarney.com/2009/04/uncomfortable-plot-summaries/

Quoting this kinda bullshit is just dumb.

[David Selig]

As for the strategy itself, it works. Brilliantly. Your describing it as "dumb" doesn't match the text and doesn't make any sense.

It works because Travelling is such a huge advantage that even mediocre plans can work. It would've worked much better if he had taken more Asha'man, including more than 10 of the stronger ones, and Aiel instead of mediocre troops lead by people he didn't trust. It he had taken 150 Asha'man and more Aiel he could've gotten his goal quicker and without having to use Callandor.

The goal is to push the Seanchan back out of Illian and stop their forward momentum. He takes a small force because the strategy involved requires one. Too many people make the army less mobile and work against the plan. It's well established in the series that even with travelling it takes alot of time because gateways can only be so big and so it takes time for large forces to move through them. Bashere is part of the planning for this strategy too btw.

Take more Asha'man (why just 50, most of them the least powerful ones, when there were something like 400 Asha'man at this point, who were doing nothing?) and more Aiel instead of other troops. The same mobility (more even, since the Aiel are somehow better than anyone at this). But no, Rand had to give his opponents a sporting chance.

The force is composed of the disloyal because Rand wants to keep an eye on them, wants them away from their powerbases back home where they can scheme against him and he doesn't mind if they get killed. There's good and bad elements to this plan, but it fits with his massive paranoia.

Depending on people you don't trust and have a good reason they hate us to guard your back on a battlefield isn't paranoia, it's just stupid, especially when you are the. Almost got Rand killed too, shockingly enough.

[Corvinus85]

No, he's not being a dumbass. He's being overconfident and kinda crazy and paranoid as fuck. Which, again, is in character for him at the time so that's good writing going on. Considering Rand going insane is one of the main plots of the series, this is the kinda of shit we need to see to establish that.

As for the strategy itself, it works. Brilliantly. Your describing it as "dumb" doesn't match the text and doesn't make any sense.

The goal is to push the Seanchan back out of Illian and stop their forward momentum. He takes a small force because the strategy involved requires one. Too many people make the army less mobile and work against the plan. It's well established in the series that even with travelling it takes alot of time because gateways can only be so big and so it takes time for large forces to move through them. Bashere is part of the planning for this strategy too btw.

The force is composed of the disloyal because Rand wants to keep an eye on them, wants them away from their powerbases back home where they can scheme against him and he doesn't mind if they get killed. There's good and bad elements to this plan, but it fits with his massive paranoia.

And the plan works. The whole thing works great and they throw the Seanchan back. But then Rand decides to overextend, against the advice of the people who know what they are talking about. And that mostly works too until it finally all unravels at the end. But his decision to overextend is routed in his character at the time and not what was originally planned which is why his forces don't match the ambition of his strategy.

Everything you are pointing out here is explained perfectly reasonably in the text. A few of you seem to be confusing characters making bad decisions with bad writing. Characters making decisions consistent with their established personalities/beliefs/knowledge/etc is good writing. That's what you want to see. And that's what's going on in this situation.

I mean, shit, most tragedies are based on characters making bad decisions based on personal flaws. That's the goddamn point.

No, it's just stupid. It's the same as describing Batman as a rich man who dresses up to assault the mentally ill. It's a freaking internet meme/joke not substantive commentary:

http://www.postmodernbarney.com/2009/04/uncomfortable-plot-summaries/

Quoting this kinda bullshit is just dumb.

Thanks Shryke for showing up. People who are dissing this part of the book seem to be thinking only of the end result, a result caused by Rand's flaws and paranoia. Like you said, the original goal of the campaign was to stop the Seanchen from invading Illian. That goal was achieved only with the small army Rand brought, which by the way did not consist only of unreliable nobles and their retainers, but also of the Legion of the Dragon, trained by Bashere.

[Shryke]

It works because Travelling is such a huge advantage that even mediocre plans can work. It would've worked much better if he had taken more Asha'man, including more than 10 of the stronger ones, and Aiel instead of mediocre troops lead by people he didn't trust. It he had taken 150 Asha'man and more Aiel he could've gotten his goal quicker and without having to use Callandor.

Take more Asha'man (why just 50, most of them the least powerful ones, when there were something like 400 Asha'man at this point, who were doing nothing?) and more Aiel instead of other troops. The same mobility (more even, since the Aiel are somehow better than anyone at this). But no, Rand had to give his opponents a sporting chance.

But it works. So your objections don't.

I want to reiterate this again cause it doesn't seem to be getting across: the plan works

The forces he assembles are perfectly adequate to the job, as it had been laid out.

It's only when he strays from the actual plan, when he overextends and uses his forces for things they were not intended for, that he fails. This is the mistake.

Depending on people you don't trust and have a good reason they hate us to guard your back on a battlefield isn't paranoia, it's just stupid, especially when you are the. Almost got Rand killed too, shockingly enough.

No, it's paranoia. As is indicated by his internal monologue. Paranoia can make you do dumb things, which is also pointed out to him by those around him.

So, again, a character acting in character. This is what is supposed to happen.

[Werthead]

He had million Aiel,

He had maybe half a million Aiel, but Rand's forces were operating on multiple fronts in multiple theatres. Taking more troops may have risked losing Tear (which he'd only just pulled out of the balance at the time anyway), Cairhien or another powerbase.

Rand was also fighting in mountains. Taking a massive army into mountains is stupid. You need small, mobile forces able to move fast and hit and run. If the Seanchan had drawn up on the plain for a knock-out slug fight, yes, bringing in tens of thousands more troops would make sense. They only did that right at the end and Rand couldn't be bothered to send for reinforcements, thinking he could just use the Power. At that point there was nothing telling him otherwise (because no-one had bothered to mention the Callandor flaw before that), so why the hell not?

There was also the point that although Rand could defeat the Seanchan, this would only be at the cost of a lot of the strength he'd built up for the Last Battle. Destroying the Seanchan may have lost him most of the forces he needed to fight the Shadow. This was a particular issue because around the time the battle took place, something like 200,000 fresh Seanchan were landing in Tarabon and another 100,000+ were on their way to Ebou Dar (arriving at the start of Winter's Heart) as the main Corenne fleet arrived.

Rand could fight and destroy either the Seanchan or the Shadow. Although it wasn't a coherent policy for another book or so, the strategy of containing and neutralising the Seanchan advance, allying with them and fighting the Shadow was certainly the correct one. This would have been far harder to achieve if Rand had slaughtered tens of thousands of Seanchan and blown Ebou Dar off the map, as he nearly did.

[Kojiro]

Not a single person agrees with you.

Enough said.

Hm, what's it like being proven objectively wrong like that?

I wish you would have given a more elaborate explanation, because it really isn't "enough said" and I have to agree with Toblakai.

Okay, apparently some people need their hand to be held through this. Here you go:

Surprisingly—or perhaps not—Weiramon began arguing for an advance, to “take Ebou Dar for the glory of the Lord of the Morning,” as he put it, but it was certainly a shock to hear Gedwyn say he would not mind taking a few more swipes at these Seanchan and he certainly would not mind seeing Ebou Dar. Even Ailil and Anaiyella added their voices in favor of “putting an end to the Seanchan once and for all,” though Ailil did add that she would as soon like to avoid having to return to finish. She was quite sure the Lord Dragon would insist on her company for it. That in a tone as cool and dry as night in the Aiel Waste.

Only Bashere and Gregorin spoke for turning back, and raise their voices they did increasingly as Rand stood silent. Silent and staring west. Toward Ebou Dar.

“We did do what we came for,” Gregorin insisted. “Light’s mercy, do you think to take Ebou Dar itself?”

Take Ebou Dar, Rand thought. Why not? No one would expect that. A total surprise, for the Seanchan and everybody else.

“Times are, you seize the advantage and ride on,” Bashere growled. “Other times, you take your winnings and go home. I say it’s time to go home.”

I would not mind you in my head, Lews Therin said, sounding almost sane, if you were not so clearly mad.

Ebou Dar. Rand tightened his hand on the Dragon Scepter, and Lews Therin cackled.

He even knows it's a bad idea, a catastrophic idea, and is shocked a few others support it. Two of his generals (one of which had helped him plan a successful deflection of the Seanchan) say they shouldn't.

And he does it anyway.

[Derfel Cadarn]

You're still wrong. Experienced people like Moiraine spent the earlier books telling Rand some of his plans were unwise, but he did then anyway (taking Stone, going to the Aiel, sending food from Tear to Cairhien) and they usually paid off. This time it backfired, but still consistent with the series.

[Corvinus85]

He even knows it's a bad idea, a catastrophic idea, and is shocked a few others support it. Two of his generals (one of which had helped him plan a successful deflection of the Seanchan) say they shouldn't.

And he does it anyway.

Surprisingly—or perhaps not—Weiramon began arguing for an advance, to “take Ebou Dar for the glory of the Lord of the Morning,” as he put it, but it was certainly a shock to hear Gedwyn say he would not mind taking a few more swipes at these Seanchan and he certainly would not mind seeing Ebou Dar. Even Ailil and Anaiyella added their voices in favor of “putting an end to the Seanchan once and for all,” though Ailil did add that she would as soon like to avoid having to return to finish. She was quite sure the Lord Dragon would insist on her company for it. That in a tone as cool and dry as night in the Aiel Waste.

Only Bashere and Gregorin spoke for turning back, and raise their voices they did increasingly as Rand stood silent. Silent and staring west. Toward Ebou Dar.

“We did do what we came for,” Gregorin insisted. “Light’s mercy, do you think to take Ebou Dar itself?”

Take Ebou Dar, Rand thought. Why not? No one would expect that. A total surprise, for the Seanchan and everybody else.

“Times are, you seize the advantage and ride on,” Bashere growled. “Other times, you take your winnings and go home. I say it’s time to go home.”

I would not mind you in my head, Lews Therin said, sounding almost sane, if you were not so clearly mad.

Ebou Dar. Rand tightened his hand on the Dragon Scepter, and Lews Therin cackled.

OK, thanks for the effort. But wow, you see things in words that aren't there. There is nothing in this quote to suggest that Rand knows taking Ebou Dar is a bad idea. He knows it's risky, but risky doesn't equal bad. Yes, he did not listen to the two best guys he had, but like everyone else that has contradicted you here said: It's in line with his character!!! The man has a notorious stubborn streak, and good or bad once he sets his mind on something, nobody can dissuade him.

[chongjasmine]

I really enjoy the wheel of time.

It is my favourite series.

I like the world, and I like the length of the series.

[andrew_]

The only thing that annoyed me about the first few books was the obvious sexual frustration Mat, Rand and Perrin were experiencing, they all improved as characters once they got laid.

[Suttree]

Love how Kojiro keeps providing quotes that shatter his own stance. The willfully ignorant approach is not a good look.

It's my opinion that the series could have been a few books shorter in the first place.

In this at least we agree. CoT was a failed experiment and the publisher driven, artificial split of the last three books when there wasn't near enough material made for an almost disastrous ending. There was an absolutely appalling amount of bloat and filler for that stage of the story arc.

@Wert

Thanks for chiming in. This discussion had become increasingly painful up until that point.

[Esa1996]

While some of the books are slow, overall it's perhaps my all time favorite book series, with ASOIAF and Malazan as really close seconds.

[EruditeFool]

Since there is another WOT thread, I'll post my answer to that one:

"Eh... I got 3 books into WOT before I gave up.

The first book I thought was a bit cliche, but introduced a fascinating world and lore with much potential.

I LOVED the second book, though I have to say I was almost cheering for the villains.

The third book felt like a step backwards. I got tired after that and moved on to other books and series."