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My Theory On Aegon Vi (Young Griff)


Justin Amey

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I Spent many weeks on top of weeks looking through topics involving Young Griff and well over 90% all people are convinced that he is NOT who he said he is. I have looking over all the theory and I have concluded 90% wise myself that he IS who he said is and here is my evidence to Debunk other theories



1:Dany's Prophecy "Beware the mummer's Dragon."= "Beware false dragon"


Well looking at this quote exactly as is, this is a pocessive noun. The "`S" after "mummer" changes the entire meanig of the quote. Every has concluded that the mummer in question is "Varys" and that the dragon in question is "Aegon", so that could possibly mean "Beware Varys' Aegon." Not Beware false dragon.



2: He's a Blackfyre.


I heavily doubt it because if he is a desendent of the female line, that line would have gone though "3" generation of impurity and he would still have look something like the son of Rheagar.



3 Jon Connington


Eddard Stark was able to look at Gendry having never seen him before and able to determine that he was a bastard of of the Robert because they grew up together so he should know what he looked like young. Rheagar and Jon Connington were best friend also and he seen Aegon as a baby so he of all people should know what he looks like.



4: Varys


It make a hella lot more sense for Varys logistically to run up flights of stairs in the castle he is in to Elia's room and convince her to hand over aegon so he taken to safety then travel across the sea to find a close enough replacement and hoped to convine Jon Conninton.



I have more but let me know what yall think of what i have so far!!! :laugh:



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Here's what I think.....



I think Varys figured out the secret of the Tower of Joy - that the Ned's "bastard" is really the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and possibly even somewhat legit. Which gave him the idea of raising his own "Targ" in secret that he could one day rule through.


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Or spoil his plans because fAegon looks nothing like Elia or Rhaegar, except for the hair and eyes, which are a widespread Valeryian trait.



I don't think Varys "found" his Aegon until years later and if he would have presented or even hinted at Elia's child being alive to Doran then Doran would have taken him away from Varys even if it did mean war, thus ending Varys plans of ruling thru him.


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Here's what I think.....

I think Varys figured out the secret of the Tower of Joy - that the Ned's "bastard" is really the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and possibly even somewhat legit. Which gave him the idea of raising his own "Targ" in secret that he could one day rule through.

Yeah but they give him to Jon Connington to raise and he of all people would notice any difference from a baby aegon he's known for years as oppose swapped baby years later.

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I'm one of the few that don't believe he's fake either and interpreted it the way you have (Merely as beware Vary's Dragon). But I've always wondered why on Earth didn't Varys ally himself with the Dorne. He knows how deeply they loved Elia, knowing her SON is alive would change everything.

Varys Don't have any spies down there and the prince of Dorne didn't reveal the secret marriage pact he had because he trust that his family wouldn't keep there mouths shut. Doran and Varys kept and there secrets from each other.

Or spoil his plans because fAegon looks nothing like Elia or Rhaegar, except for the hair and eyes, which are a widespread Valeryian trait.

I don't think Varys "found" his Aegon until years later and if he would have presented or even hinted at Elia's child being alive to Doran then Doran would have taken him away from Varys even if it did mean war, thus ending Varys plans of ruling thru him.

He has to look a lot like the son of Rheagar because Tyrion was able to see thru his disguise and call him Aegon so has to look something close.

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3 Jon Connington

Eddard Stark was able to look at Gendry having never seen him before and able to determine that he was a bastard of of the Robert because they grew up together so he should know what he looked like young. Rheagar and Jon Connington were best friend also and he seen Aegon as a baby so he of all people should know what he looks like

JC was a close friend and companion of Rhaegar (Arthur was the best friend) but it's not clear if he lived in KL after Rhaegar married and Aegon was born. And even if he did, his obligations were being a squire of Rhaegar, he probably wasn't close to the royal children.

Either way, I think you have a point, but not about Ned but Brienne. Ned knew there was something about Gendry, but Brienne, she recognised him at once because Renly's face (which is also Robert's) is something she knew well. What looks to be one of Jon's more fond memory of Rhaegar involves him looking at him when they were in G'sR. OTOH, remember that when JC was given Aegon, he was already six years old and children change a lot. That and Connington's guilt about his actions leading to Rhaegar's death would make him believe anything. Varys offered him a chance of redemption and he believed it. That makes him look naive but who knows what kind of proof Varys used to convince him?

(now, personally, I think Aegon is the real thing, though)

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Proving fAegon: Challenge accepted!





1:Dany's Prophecy "Beware the mummer's Dragon."= "Beware false dragon"


Well looking at this quote exactly as is, this is a pocessive noun. The "`S" after "mummer" changes the entire meanig of the quote. Every has concluded that the mummer in question is "Varys" and that the dragon in question is "Aegon", so that could possibly mean "Beware Varys' Aegon." Not Beware false dragon.





I see the grammatical distinction, but I don't think it actually matters. The phrase "murmur's dragon" can be interpreted both ways. It honestly can be fake dragon or Vary's dragon. I'll agree with you that the actual interpretation should be "beware Varys." Let's at least agree GRRM left it vague for this exact purpose.



Ultimately, you can't trust Varys, or anything he says. Based on his actions leading up to RR, I think we can conclude he is not a Targaryen loyalist. In fact, he's responsible for driving the Mad King and Rhaegar apart. The two parts I always get hung up on are the exchange and the time gap of JonCon. I get the notion of a mother handing of her son to save him, but would you hand your child to Varys? He might have been the best person to sneak a baby out off the city, but I doubt she could of had any faith in him doing right by her son after. I also got the impression that Rhaegar and Varys were not on the same page at all. Personally, if there was an exchange, I believe Varys did it in secret. My second big concern is the time gap between when JonCon see's baby Aegon and child Aegon. 6 years is a long time to come up with an elaborate scheme and find a child that could look Targaryen enough to pass. And there are several non-Targs with Targaryen feateures in the world of ASOIAF.



Sadly this response is going to have to be a lot shorter than I originally planed. My gut feeling is that if we take Varys at his word and all he wants is to create a stable and decent society, why turn the Mad King on his son? It would make a lot more sense to get Rhaegar to overthrow his father, especially since at the end even he saw his dad had issues. It just feels like an overly contrived process/scheme. Furthermore, was this scheme planned out well in advance of the sacking of KL or was it a spur of the moment thing. As it stands now there are way to many holes in the story that I have a hard time accepting it. I hope to go back and expand this post a lot more later on.


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Proving fAegon: Challenge accepted!

I see the grammatical distinction, but I don't think it actually matters. The phrase "murmur's dragon" can be interpreted both ways. It honestly can be fake dragon or Vary's dragon. I'll agree with you that the actual interpretation should be "beware Varys." Let's at least agree GRRM left it vague for this exact purpose.

Ultimately, you can't trust Varys, or anything he says. Based on his actions leading up to RR, I think we can conclude he is not a Targaryen loyalist. In fact, he's responsible for driving the Mad King and Rhaegar apart. The two parts I always get hung up on are the exchange and the time gap of JonCon. I get the notion of a mother handing of her son to save him, but would you hand your child to Varys? He might have been the best person to sneak a baby out off the city, but I doubt she could of had any faith in him doing right by her son after. I also got the impression that Rhaegar and Varys were not on the same page at all. Personally, if there was an exchange, I believe Varys did it in secret. My second big concern is the time gap between when JonCon see's baby Aegon and child Aegon. 6 years is a long time to come up with an elaborate scheme and find a child that could look Targaryen enough to pass. And there are several non-Targs with Targaryen feateures in the world of ASOIAF.

Sadly this response is going to have to be a lot shorter than I originally planed. My gut feeling is that if we take Varys at his word and all he wants is to create a stable and decent society, why turn the Mad King on his son? It would make a lot more sense to get Rhaegar to overthrow his father, especially since at the end even he saw his dad had issues. It just feels like an overly contrived process/scheme. Furthermore, was this scheme planned out well in advance of the sacking of KL or was it a spur of the moment thing. As it stands now there are way to many holes in the story that I have a hard time accepting it. I hope to go back and expand this post a lot more later on.

Yea I posted about that awhile ago wondering why Varys who is supposed to be all about peace would have tipped the mad king off that his son was going to rally lords to overthrow him at Harrenhall.We know Varys doesnt care if a civil war is started (War of the 5 Kings) so why would he not have let Rhaegar rally the lords as there was a 0% chance that people would support his father over him as pretty much everyone loved Rhaegar.Its the main reason why I think Varys is full of shit and doesnt care about anything.

As for (F)Aegon they have stated he is a blackfyre as they went ahead and said "Black or red a dragon is a dragon" not to mention that they specificlly mention that the MALE line of the blackfyres died.And also the evidence they gave as to why the Golden Company would support Aegon.

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Yea I posted about that awhile ago wondering why Varys who is supposed to be all about peace would have tipped the mad king off that his son was going to rally lords to overthrow him at Harrenhall.We know Varys doesnt care if a civil war is started (War of the 5 Kings) so why would he not have let Rhaegar rally the lords as there was a 0% chance that people would support his father over him as pretty much everyone loved Rhaegar.Its the main reason why I think Varys is full of shit and doesnt care about anything.

As for (F)Aegon they have stated he is a blackfyre as they went ahead and said "Black or red a dragon is a dragon" not to mention that they specificlly mention that the MALE line of the blackfyres died.And also the evidence they gave as to why the Golden Company would support Aegon.

Your last point got me curious. If he is a true Targaryen, wouldn't the Golden Company despise him? I thought they were created by Bittersteel Blackfyre, and that they specifically disliked Targaryens. When Viserys tried to enlist their aid (with gold and not words like JonCon did), they laughed in his face. The current leader, Homeless Harry Strickland's family sided with the Blackfyres. Now that being said, when fAegon and JonCon (he's got Con(artist) in his name) enlisted their aid, both believed he was the real deal. I'm wondering though if their ties to Illyrio would have sent a secret message to the Golden Company...who knows....

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Your last point got me curious. If he is a true Targaryen, wouldn't the Golden Company despise him? I thought they were created by Bittersteel Blackfyre, and that they specifically disliked Targaryens. When Viserys tried to enlist their aid (with gold and not words like JonCon did), they laughed in his face. The current leader, Homeless Harry Strickland's family sided with the Blackfyres. Now that being said, when fAegon and JonCon (he's got Con(artist) in his name) enlisted their aid, both believed he was the real deal. I'm wondering though if their ties to Illyrio would have sent a secret message to the Golden Company...who knows....

"Black or red a dragon is a dragon" I think this quote is being misinterpretted as well. The golden company wants to go home and claim their lands and they were willing to meet up with and back Dany to do so, and she is a red dragon. The golden company was created by blackfyres because they felt their dragon was better fit than the ones on the throne but now they dont care what dragon lead them, they just want to go home with honor, and only a living Targ can do that, that why thet're going with Aegon

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Proving fAegon: Challenge accepted!

I see the grammatical distinction, but I don't think it actually matters. The phrase "murmur's dragon" can be interpreted both ways. It honestly can be fake dragon or Vary's dragon. I'll agree with you that the actual interpretation should be "beware Varys." Let's at least agree GRRM left it vague for this exact purpose.

Ultimately, you can't trust Varys, or anything he says. Based on his actions leading up to RR, I think we can conclude he is not a Targaryen loyalist. In fact, he's responsible for driving the Mad King and Rhaegar apart. The two parts I always get hung up on are the exchange and the time gap of JonCon. I get the notion of a mother handing of her son to save him, but would you hand your child to Varys? He might have been the best person to sneak a baby out off the city, but I doubt she could of had any faith in him doing right by her son after. I also got the impression that Rhaegar and Varys were not on the same page at all. Personally, if there was an exchange, I believe Varys did it in secret. My second big concern is the time gap between when JonCon see's baby Aegon and child Aegon. 6 years is a long time to come up with an elaborate scheme and find a child that could look Targaryen enough to pass. And there are several non-Targs with Targaryen feateures in the world of ASOIAF.

Sadly this response is going to have to be a lot shorter than I originally planed. My gut feeling is that if we take Varys at his word and all he wants is to create a stable and decent society, why turn the Mad King on his son? It would make a lot more sense to get Rhaegar to overthrow his father, especially since at the end even he saw his dad had issues. It just feels like an overly contrived process/scheme. Furthermore, was this scheme planned out well in advance of the sacking of KL or was it a spur of the moment thing. As it stands now there are way to many holes in the story that I have a hard time accepting it. I hope to go back and expand this post a lot more later on.

1: Aegon, being the first son of Rhaegar, his fate would be definitely seal if he stay with her mother in the tower. Giving him to a man with effy intentions maybe is a whole not better than guaranteed slaughter. Those were only choices and she to act fast.

2: having targ- feature is one thing, but they would still have to look a hella lot like son of Rhaegar to fool Rhaegar's Best friend JonCon. I have a hard time believeing they would go thru a lot of resource scouring the free cities looking for a look-a-like when it is waaaaay easier with the real Mccoy. I'm just saying!

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First of all,greatings to everyone in this forums.


Well,about the father to son appareance we have to remember Ned knew other Robert's bastards before,and Jon Arryn too,so they could make a logical conclusion-The seed is strong;in Rhaegar case we don't have the data that can assure us that his seed was strong,in a matter of fact,if R+L=J we can tell quite the oposite :P


.


The GC would never ally themselves with a Targaryen,there is too much bad blood between them.



JC is kinda in love with Rhaegar i guess,i think he belive fAegon is the real deal so hard it came true in his head.



About Varys-At first i toght Varys serves the realm,but then i realized he removed a competent manager just to put fAegon in the game.

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Your last point got me curious. If he is a true Targaryen, wouldn't the Golden Company despise him? I thought they were created by Bittersteel Blackfyre, and that they specifically disliked Targaryens. When Viserys tried to enlist their aid (with gold and not words like JonCon did), they laughed in his face. The current leader, Homeless Harry Strickland's family sided with the Blackfyres. Now that being said, when fAegon and JonCon (he's got Con(artist) in his name) enlisted their aid, both believed he was the real deal. I'm wondering though if their ties to Illyrio would have sent a secret message to the Golden Company...who knows....

Black or red, a dragon is a dragon, and those men want to return home.

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First of all,greatings to everyone in this forums.

Well,about the father to son appareance we have to remember Ned knew other Robert's bastards before,and Jon Arryn too,so they could make a logical conclusion-The seed is strong;in Rhaegar case we don't have the data that can assure us that his seed was strong,in a matter of fact,if R+L=J we can tell quite the oposite :P

.

The GC would never ally themselves with a Targaryen,there is too much bad blood between them.

JC is kinda in love with Rhaegar i guess,i think he belive fAegon is the real deal so hard it came true in his head.

About Varys-At first i toght Varys serves the realm,but then i realized he removed a competent manager just to put fAegon in the game.

1:Please don't try to kill to me, but I seriously believe that Jon snow is Ned's Bastard. I have a hard time believing Rhaegar and Lyanna had a kid looking like Ned Stark. I mean everybody said he looks him Even the lannisters, And Catlyn!!!

2: The GC Company wanting to go home can trump a past generation Blood feud now that all Targ, are in exile.

3: JC doesn't seem like delustional type to me.

4: Varys has reveal his loyalties at last, so everything he does was for the good of the Targs so they reunite the realm under their rule like was for 300 years.

Black or red, a dragon is a dragon, and those men want to return home.

:agree:

I think it's all about what fAegon's uncle Doran and cousin Arianne thinks about him. If they see his mother in him it would go a long way to solidifying his identity. The GC with SunSpear makes for a formidable alliance.

:agree: And eventually Dany.

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1:Please don't try to kill to me, but I seriously believe that Jon snow is Ned's Bastard. I have a hard time believing Rhaegar and Lyanna had a kid looking like Ned Stark. I mean everybody said he looks him Even the lannisters, And Catlyn!!!

:lol: don't worry.

But remember that people often ignores what they are meant to ignore and they don't see what they are supposed to see: they aren't meant to compare Jon to Lyanna. Lyanna and Ned have both Stark features, but let's say, maybe Lyanna's are more feminine than Ned's, so, Jon looks more like his uncle because he also has a masculine face. Also, both Arya and Jon have similar features, and Arya looks like Lyanna. So, let's say Lyanna was a stark with more "soft" features, and Jon, being a boy, has them but roughened, like Ned.

Make sense?

2: The GC Company wanting to go home can trump a past generation Blood feud now that all Targ, are in exile.

That I agree. I doubt they even care about the game of thrones, they all want to go home and have some gain from it.

3: JC doesn't seem like delustional type to me.

He doesn't, but also remember that there is guilt he carried for 17 years. He wants to believe he will redeem himself. (Although I do believe Aegon is real).
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The switch itself would be difficult to orchestrate, as soon as word was received that Rhaeger fell on the trident, Varys would have to find a baby and make the swap. Because he knows the ins and outs of the red keep i can see him sneaking into Elia's rooms to make the switch. What gets me every time is how did he know the mountain would smash the baby's face until it was unrecognisable?


Now either the fake baby was already dead/face smashed before the mountain came there and he didn't bother to ask questions or it was a coincidence that he also smashed the face without realising it was already that way


OR after the real Aegon was face smashed Varys thought up the plot to put a fake Aegon on the throne. It's also possible that things just worked out perfectly for Varys's plan...but i find that hard to believe.



I am more on the side of wanting Aegon to be real though


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As far as fooling Jon Con it would be easy. We all have friends with infant children. How many of us would notice if they were switched? Maybe the women would notice, but not most men.


What guy pays close attention to their buddy's small children?


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:lol: don't worry.

But remember that people often ignores what they are meant to ignore and they don't see what they are supposed to see: they aren't meant to compare Jon to Lyanna. Lyanna and Ned have both Stark features, but let's say, maybe Lyanna's are more feminine than Ned's, so, Jon looks more like his uncle because he also has a masculine face. Also, both Arya and Jon have similar features, and Arya looks like Lyanna. So, let's say Lyanna was a stark with more "soft" features, and Jon, being a boy, has them but roughened, like Ned.

Make sense?

That I agree. I doubt they even care about the game of thrones, they all want to go home and have some gain from it.

He doesn't, but also remember that there is guilt he carried for 17 years. He wants to believe he will redeem himself. (Although I do believe Aegon is real).

JC was also desperately in love with Rhaegar and was crushed when he find out that Robert killed him. Now comes in Varys and gives him a baby boy with silver hair and purple eyes and says "I saved Rhaegar's only son". JC would jump at this chance to raise a son of his Beloved, he would never even doubt Varys at all.

Also, when people look at an average face - dark hair/eyes pale skin they actually start looking at person's features and comparing them, however, if you have some striking features - silver hair and purple eyes or dark skin, or almond shaped eyes, or blond hair/green eyes, they will overshadow actual face features. All JC and others are looking at are hair and eyes, not the face. And there been some many years that JC memory of Rhaegar got merged with the boy's features, they didn't have photos then. Unless Rhaegar's boy had tanned skin or other recognizable features that will distinguish him from any other Valyrion -blood baby, one baby is good as another. Only mother or nanny would recognize the distinction and not after many years separation too.

As for Tyrion guess, its because he is smart and able to put hints together. The way the boy and people around him behaved, all excaggerated secrecy, presence of JC and bright blue colored hair (unusual to someone who is raised and cared for by JC and Septa - both Westerosi and not Lys natives), Tyrion just put everything together from the way they acted. Thats first. Second, all people around Tyrion sincerely believed that young Griff is the real deal, if Varys and Illyrio stayed on, Tyrion might have guessed that the boy is the imposter, but they spent maybe like one chapter together and never in presence of both actors.

If Tyrion spent couple of days with all - young Griff, JC, Septa, Illyrio and/or Varys - he might have guessed that not only boy and JC believe him to be Aegon, but he might have figured out the game Illyrio and Varys are playing - the real one, not the one they claim.

I only believe that the boy might be real Aegon, because of GRRM tendency to throw us off with big surprises and just because so many people believed that L+R=J and Dany's destiny so he would introduce real Aegon just to throw off everyone else's expectations.

Also, what Varys told Kevin, why would he lie to dying man with no-one else listening?

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