My Theory On Aegon Vi (Young Griff)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He'd be the same age as Robb, more or less. But remember, Tyrion is notoriously bad at guessing people's ages. He admits it a few times.

Robb was born around the end of the Rebellion. Aegon was born before Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna, and he was missing for a year. So, he was around one year by the end of the Rebellion, when Robb had just being born. They're one year appart.

[Buried Treasure]

The most important thing about the age of Jon C's Aegon is that 5 years after the war he had to look like a six year old. That pretty much rules out Tyrion having guessed the boys age correctly on first meeting, else Jon C would have adopting a 3 or 4 year old.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The most important thing about the age of Jon C's Aegon is that 5 years after the war he had to look like a six year old. That pretty much rules out Tyrion having guessed the boys age correctly on first meeting, else Jon C would have adopting a 3 or 4 year old.

I agree but let's say JC isn't an expert on children either if what you say is true.

[Justin Amey]

No, they just laughed at them and called him a beggar king.

Yeah but he still a Targ. If there ever a time to kill him, that would be it.

Aegon is the bastard son of Lyanna and Rhaegar . Mummer's dragon. The Mummer's dragon does not indicate whether he his or is not legitimacy but it is the dragon she must fight.

:bang: :ack: :stillsick: I don't know to start with this one.

To me there is just something fishy about this whole fAegon thing. He comes out of nowhere in the fifth book in the series and the whole baby switch thing, could Varies really convince Elia Martell to go along with it? And why switch just one of Rhaegar's children and not both of them? Then there's the mummer's dragon prophecy by Quaithe and the false dragon prophecy by Moqorro. Who else could the false dragon be? The evidence points more to fAegon not being who they are portraying him to be. I think he is of the Targaryen blood line though. There is a theory that Illyrio is a Blackfyre and fAegon is his son. If anything I think Illyrio could be the grandson of Aerion Brightflame who did live in Lys for a few years and did have a green dragon egg. Aerion could have stolen his brother Egg's pale gold dragon egg and passed both eggs down to his son who would have then passed them down to his own son, Illiryo. I think that could have been the reason Martin describes Illyrio's youth and the young woman he was married to, during Tyrion's POV chapters in DWD. Could she have been a Blackfyre? I always thought there was significance to that statue of Illyrio when he was sixteen. Seems like a splitting image of fAegon, the way it was described. And what about the black dragon egg. If all this is true where did it come from? Why would Illyrio give these eggs to Daenerys and not his own son? I'm probably not the first to come up with this theory but it seems like there is something there. Just not sure what.

1:first Elia is a smart women, She knows that there was a war going on that they were losing, if they were to lose the war, she and her kids would under mercy of the rebels. She knows all of this, so when she sees King's landing Being sacked by Lannisters she knows her and Aegon goose is cooked so when Varys comes by Telling her he can get Aegon to safety, it was the only choice she had.

2: You asked why didn't he take the girl, I asked you this, Why didn't didn't Robert B and Ned Stark take both Theon and Asha :dunno:...... Women aren't held in high regard like that. Varys was probably assuming that they would keep the girl and Elia as hostage so they can barter with Dorne but the Savage Mountian and Aromy Lorch got to them and not someon more honerable like a Stark, now they dealing with the fallout

I think that scene is just from the show but In the book I believe he does talk about killing the wizard who roasts his nuts/manhood for some spell. Everything about Varys is BS. He claims to abhor magic but seems to have a hand in it. And I've also wondered where did he receive his extensive knowledge of the secret passageways of the Red Keep?

He found the maps and explored them all on his own under the mad king's rules. he one of the only ppl that know about because the Mad king killed every one else.

Just thought of something too. Aegon is too young to be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He would have to be at least 17 or 18

I'm in my 20s and ppl still think i'm under 18 so his bad guess don't mean anything.

[Buried Treasure]

I agree but let's say JC isn't an expert on children either if what you say is true.

He does not need to be an expert on children, anybody with a passing familiarity with children would notice a discrepancy with a 4 year old passing as a six year old. Jon C was raised in a castle - basically a small interconnected village. His society does not separate other people's children into schools where adults never see them, they are with their parents at their work and acting as servers and pages for men like Jon. Add to that the possible risk of a tiny false Aegon playing with other 6 year olds and being a third their size or of Jon appointing a nursemaid very familiar with children and their growth.

I credit Varys and Illyrio with at the very least basic competency as schemers. So I think any fake they procured with have been within a few months of the correct age.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Robb was born around the end of the Rebellion. Aegon was born before Rhaegar disappeared with Lyanna, and he was missing for a year. So, he was around one year by the end of the Rebellion, when Robb had just being born. They're one year appart.

Nvm you're right. So he'd be like 15 at the beginning of AGoT, so maybe like 17ish now.

[Other_Jon33]

2: You asked why didn't he take the girl, I asked you this, Why didn't didn't Robert B and Ned Stark take both Theon and Asha :dunno:...... Women aren't held in high regard like that. Varys was probably assuming that they would keep the girl and Elia as hostage so they can barter with Dorne but the Savage Mountian and Aromy Lorch got to them and not someon more honerable like a Stark, now they dealing with the fallout

[Other_Jon33]

Yeah I agree with the part about women but if I had two children and Varys approached me about a plan to save one of them I would have been like hell no, you need to save both. Also they were under different circumstances than the Greyjoy siblings. Rhaegar's children's lives were possibly at risk. Elia was Dornish and in Dorne girls can inherit after all.

[igrewupinKL]

Other_Jon33 under the circumstances of the sack of kings landing, if someone came to me and said, 'i;ve found a baby that looks like Aegon, i can switch them and save him' i think you'd do it. And perhaps hope that Rhaenys would be spared since she cannot claim the throne. I agree with Justin Amey , they didn't count on the mountain and armory lorch to be so violent and tactless.

[A Bastard Snow]

Other_Jon33 under the circumstances of the sack of kings landing, if someone came to me and said, 'i;ve found a baby that looks like Aegon, i can switch them and save him' i think you'd do it. And perhaps hope that Rhaenys would be spared since she cannot claim the throne. I agree with Justin Amey , they didn't count on the mountain and armory lorch to be so violent and tactless.

If Elia thinks that Aegons life is in danger then why on earth would she think Rhaeny's would be okay?If you think they will kill one of your children then what would be stopping them from killing another one.Also sneaking two kids out in the chaos of the Sack would not have been hard at all when Varys knows a buncha hidden passages.

As for saying Rhaeny's cant claim the throne what would be stopping her from doing so?So long as she lived she would pose a threat to the throne as you cant marry her off to anyone as any child she had could one day rally Targ Loyalists and take the throne.You cant exile her because then you will have another Dany.You could lock her up for the rest of her life but even then she is a constant danger for someone to stage a Coup and release her and proclaim her Queen.

[igrewupinKL]

If Elia thinks that Aegons life is in danger then why on earth would she think Rhaeny's would be okay?If you think they will kill one of your children then what would be stopping them from killing another one.Also sneaking two kids out in the chaos of the Sack would not have been hard at all when Varys knows a buncha hidden passages.

As for saying Rhaeny's cant claim the throne what would be stopping her from doing so?So long as she lived she would pose a threat to the throne as you cant marry her off to anyone as any child she had could one day rally Targ Loyalists and take the throne.You cant exile her because then you will have another Dany.You could lock her up for the rest of her life but even then she is a constant danger for someone to stage a Coup and release her and proclaim her Queen.

Rhaenys was older and had defined features. Aegon was still a toddler- an easier swap...however I think Varys negotiated the swap for Aegon only, because he had Targ features which are far more rare than Dorne features. So if an Aegon (fake or real) was to appear later in the series, seeing silver hair and purple eyes would be easier to believe he is Rhaeger's son than Rhaenys. Another thing is, Elia and Rhaeger thought that Aegon was tPtwP. in Elia's eyes perhaps he was more important, together with the chaos and panic going on, choosing to save one child is not a stretch.

I don't think she thought Rhaenys would be okay...she just had to choose, because Varys probably didn't have a replacement child for Rhaenys at the time. (or he chose not to have a replacement for her). Rhaenys was left on her own and Elia was found with Aegon, Why? It would make sense for her to be with both her children. But she wasn't. They probably just did the swap when the lannisters were let in the gates and started sacking the city so it didn't leave much time. I mean i find it odd that Elia was even IN kings landing. why wasn't she in Dorne after Rhaeger fell on the trident? was she kept there by king Aerys?

[Justin Amey]

Rhaenys was older and had defined features. Aegon was still a toddler- an easier swap...however I think Varys negotiated the swap for Aegon only, because he had Targ features which are far more rare than Dorne features. So if an Aegon (fake or real) was to appear later in the series, seeing silver hair and purple eyes would be easier to believe he is Rhaeger's son than Rhaenys. Another thing is, Elia and Rhaeger thought that Aegon was tPtwP. in Elia's eyes perhaps he was more important, together with the chaos and panic going on, choosing to save one child is not a stretch.

I don't think she thought Rhaenys would be okay...she just had to choose, because Varys probably didn't have a replacement child for Rhaenys at the time. (or he chose not to have a replacement for her). Rhaenys was left on her own and Elia was found with Aegon, Why? It would make sense for her to be with both her children. But she wasn't. They probably just did the swap when the lannisters were let in the gates and started sacking the city so it didn't leave much time. I mean i find it odd that Elia was even IN kings landing. why wasn't she in Dorne after Rhaeger fell on the trident? was she kept there by king Aerys?

was she kept there by king Aerys? The Mad King didn't trust her for what ever reason but he did trust that his kids would be safe on dragonstone

[igrewupinKL]

However, he kept Princess Elia and her young children Rhaenys and Aegon with him at the Red Keep, believing they were necessary as hostages to ensure the loyalty of House Martell and Dorne. This decision would ultimately lead to their brutal deaths at the hands of Ser Amory Lorch and Ser Gregor Clegane.

That's what it says on the wiki. So he did keep them there as hostages, otherwise Elia would have fled to Dorne with her children.

[Other_Jon33]

Y'all mean to tell me Varys, who has all the secret knowledge of the Red Keep, the same guy who spirited away Tyrion Lannister after he killed his father, decides to save one child of Rhaegar and not the other? If I was playing the game of thrones, two pawns are worth more than one. I wouldn't leave a Targeryan child behind if I knew I was going to plot for years to come, no matter what her features are like. Dorne would have held on to Rhaenys like they now hold Myrcella and you better believe Varys would know and exploit that fact.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Y'all mean to tell me Varys, who has all the secret knowledge of the Red Keep, the same guy who spirited away Tyrion Lannister after he killed his father, decides to save one child of Rhaegar and not the other? If I was playing the game of thrones, two pawns are worth more than one. I wouldn't leave a Targeryan child behind if I knew I was going to plot for years to come, no matter what her features are like. Dorne would have held on to Rhaenys like they now hold Myrcella and you better believe Varys would know and exploit that fact.

I don't think it has to do with having one or two kids but with the timing, and acting fast. Maybe he got the kid closer to him and run with him, while Rhaenys escaped to Rhaegar's bed.

BTW, I'll check Clash, but has Varys ever mentioned to be in a sack before?

[Justin Amey]

Y'all mean to tell me Varys, who has all the secret knowledge of the Red Keep, the same guy who spirited away Tyrion Lannister after he killed his father, decides to save one child of Rhaegar and not the other? If I was playing the game of thrones, two pawns are worth more than one. I wouldn't leave a Targeryan child behind if I knew I was going to plot for years to come, no matter what her features are like. Dorne would have held on to Rhaenys like they now hold Myrcella and you better believe Varys would know and exploit that fact.

IF Robert would have held the girl hostage, Varys would have been able to look after her in king's landing while Aegon would off preparing to take Kings landing Back

[A Bastard Snow]

I don't think it has to do with having one or two kids but with the timing, and acting fast. Maybe he got the kid closer to him and run with him, while Rhaenys escaped to Rhaegar's bed.

BTW, I'll check Clash, but has Varys ever mentioned to be in a sack before?

Yes he is the one who counciled Aerys to not open the gates to Tywin.We all know how that went.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Quote

“Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying.”

ADwD, Dany II.

Schmendrick, on 26 Feb 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

While we’re on the subject of Jon and (f)Aegon, take a look back at Quaithe’s pairings:

1st: 2nd:

Kraken and dark flame

lion and griffin

sun’s son and mummer’s dragon

First off, awesome posts. I appreciate your effort and diligence, as well as your command on mythology and lore.I think your theory has a great deal of merit, and if GRRM goes Hallmark ending with Dany and Jon, Jon being Lightbringer and Dany being AAR would work.

All that being said, in reading your post I had a major "Holy Shit!" epiphany. You sir, in trying to articulate a thesis regarding Jon=Lightbringer, may have found some of the most damning evidence on fAegon. When I first read the phrase, I had interpreted as, "Beware Victarion and red god/idk (didn't really get it at first), Tyrion and JonCon, Quentyn and fAegon." Using this interpenetration, it's easy to identify candidates, but very hard to identify any meaning. It's just a scatter shot of possible enemies that will betray you. However, assuming you're right and the Sun's Son is Jon, then their is a very clear meaning. It hit me the moment I saw your chart (quoted above). Dark flame is Blackfyre. And if you want to treat your chart as Dany's path to the last piece, then it would mean Varys/ Illyrio to Griff to the murmur's dragon. And notice the wording again. The first and the last are cloaked, the name hidden. That's because those two are by nature, false. The Griffin is who he seems and believes what he's doing is correct. If Jon is the sun's son, then he has yet to truly become that person so his name could be omitted as well. And even if the split chart doesn't equate to Dany's path to Jon or fAegon, it was a way of making sense, that every other reference warned of Varys/Illyrio's scheme.

That being said, I want QM to be the sun's son. That means Jon isn't someone she need fear :box:

From a different thread about how Jon is Lightbringer, but this parallel was drawn.

[Justin Amey]

“Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying.” I truly believe now that the mummer's Dragon is the Ironborn coming under the pretext of Helping Dany, not Aegon's being real or not.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

“Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying.” I truly believe now that the mummer's Dragon is the Ironborn coming under the pretext of Helping Dany, not Aegon's being real or not.

The Iron born are the Kraken. Most people believe it means Greyjoy and Blackfyre, Lannister and JonCon, QM and fAegon.