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Significance of House Royce


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#1 Hippocras

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:06 AM

If you recall, in the very first book, right away in the prologue, we are already introduced to house Royce. Waymar is killed by WW.

 

Later in the series, this House keeps popping up in ways that are unusual for a lesser house. We learn that a Stark daughter once married into this family and the current Royces are her descendants. We learn in a different book that Rhea Royce was Daemon Targaryen's first wife (Rhaenyra was his third wife).

 

So this thread is for speculation on why they might be important in future. What is the eventual role of House Royce and why do they have such unusual prominence in the books?



#2 DipMeInGoldAndCallMeAegor

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:09 AM

Perhaps we will see Waymar make a triumphant return.

 

As a wight, but a return all the same.



#3 Hippocras

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:19 AM

Walder Frey's first set of heirs are also Royce descendants, including Black Walder. What is up with this family? Their Frey marriage might potentially put them in conflict with the Waynwoods over the future of the Twins, and divide the Freys, meanwhile, if there is a dispute for the future of the Vale.

 

Open questions:

 

Which branch of House Royce married Freys and why?

Are they allies or opponents of the Waynwoods?

If Sweet Robin and Harry both died, which Vale house would be most likely next in line?


Edited by Hippocras, 27 May 2014 - 07:24 AM.


#4 Daemon I Blackfyre

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:30 AM

I'm still mad at Loras for killing Robar Royce in a fit of rage. Robar was one of the good guys, he even let Brienne and Catelyn escape after Renly's death, but the pretty princess just couldn't think things trough and killed both him and Emmon Cuy without a second thought. Jackass.



#5 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:37 AM

We remember.

 

In my opinion, the Royces tie into the struggle against the Others. They'll probably bring the Vale, or assist Sansa in bringing the Vale. Probably paralleled by House Dayne in Dorne, another House popping up all the time with similar characteristics.

Later in the series, this House keeps popping up in ways that are unusual for a lesser house. We learn that a Stark daughter once married into this family and the current Royces are her descendants. We learn in a different book that Rhea Royce was Daemon Targaryen's first wife (Rhaenyra was his third wife).

Nope. Different branch of the family tree, the Royces descended from this Stark daughter have married into the Waynwoods and other noble families some generations ago. No living descendant still bears the name Royce.



#6 Hippocras

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:47 AM

I'm still mad at Loras for killing Robar Royce in a fit of rage. Robar was one of the good guys, he even let Brienne and Catelyn escape after Renly's death, but the pretty princess just couldn't think things trough and killed both him and Emmon Cuy without a second thought. Jackass.

 

This might turn out to be significant if the LF-Tyrell alliance is still active as has been hinted, and the Tyrells show up in the Vale.



#7 Hippocras

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:48 AM

 

Nope. Different branch of the family tree, the Royces descended from this Stark daughter have married into the Waynwoods and other noble families some generations ago. No living descendant still bears the name Royce.

 

Can you clarify? I can't find enough information on this.



#8 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:08 AM

 

Can you clarify? I can't find enough information on this.

It's in the part about Robb's heirs in the Vale. Lord Rickard's aunt married a Royce of the junior branch, had a couple daughters who married into the Waynwoods and a bunch of other Houses Cat doesn't remember in detail, but no sons.



#9 Leap

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:12 AM

Yohn Royce, also known as Bronze Yohn - interestingly Bronze John is a name for Yellow Fever (as I learnt in Fevre Dream). Not sure what this could mean for their role in the series, because I always pictured them as a force for good. We'll see, though.



#10 Hippocras

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:13 AM

It's in the part about Robb's heirs in the Vale. Lord Rickard's aunt married a Royce of the junior branch, had a couple daughters who married into the Waynwoods and a bunch of other Houses Cat doesn't remember in detail, but no sons.

 

ok, thanks. Good to know. So maybe they are married into the Freys now too.



#11 Batbob45

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:21 AM

I have a feeling that the Royce might be important to  the war against the others.



#12 Ours is the Stannis

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:24 AM

 

 

If Sweet Robin and Harry both died, which Vale house would be most likely next in line?

Legally speaking, I'm not sure if we have enough information.  Looks like we would have to go back before Jasper Arryn (Jon's Father) to see how the marriages lined up.

 

 If it's not done by bloodline, maybe the Vale Lords would "vote" a new Lord Paramount, or the IT would name someone to that position.  IDK know though.  



#13 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 09:14 AM

Yohn Royce, also known as Bronze Yohn - interestingly Bronze John is a name for Yellow Fever (as I learnt in Fevre Dream). Not sure what this could mean for their role in the series, because I always pictured them as a force for good. We'll see, though.

 

You know, I remembered that Bronze Yohn/Bronze John analogy when I first started reading the books, but I've since moved on from that Fevre Dream specific implication, and now wonder if it does have some meaning.  I suspect that GRRM just liked the sound of it, and the shoutout to his earlier work?  I do love the shoutout to the Fevre River from Dream, I wish the one in ASOIAF was spelled the same way.  I'll take what I can get though. 

 

I do think, minus plague implications of the name, that he will play a big role in the future.  I wonder if he or his heir would be the ones to take over in the Vale if the Arryns do die out.  I suspect that if Bronze Yohn doesn't already know Sansa's true identity, he will soon.  The more I think about Sansa's identity being unknown, the more I think most in the Vale might know or suspect something.  Yes, there is something to be said for snoutty nobility not deigning to notice a bastard or the common folk, but there is the issue of the Tully eyes she has, Lysa being there nonstop since Jon Arryn's death, and the point of both Cat visiting the Vale in AGOT and Bronze Yohn's pre-GOT visit to Winterfell.

 

I'd also like to give a shoutout to poor, dear departed Robar.  Might as well give one to Waymar, too.  I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for Bronze Yohn on the loss of his sons, although.......there is also a cold, hard, and snotty vibe about him too that makes me forget that part. 


Edited by Lady Fevre Dream, 27 May 2014 - 09:16 AM.


#14 Tyrus Martell

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 09:27 AM

Bronze Yohn Royce will be a key player in the future of the Vale. GRRM's been setting him up since ACOK, having him mentioned sparaodically as the most outspoken leader in the Vale against Lysa Arryn's inaction in The War of the Five Kings. He also was said to have argued to join the North/Riverlands alliance, and I'm guessing this is because of his close relationship with House Stark - which is revealed through Sansa when she remembers Yohn Royce visiting Winterfell with Waymar on the way to the Wall. He's now the only member of the Lords Declarant who is actually trying to get rid Petyr Baelish and not falling for smiles (Symond Templeton), corruption (Benedar Belmore), in-fighting with family (Eon Hunter), little boys (Lyn Corbay), marriage alliances (Anya Waynwood) or inaction (Horton Redfort).

 

Robar Royce was an honourable knight and he had a tragic death. He was shown to be just like his brother, too - not afraid of carrying out his duty. Compared to the majority of the minor characters in the series, I don't think I can think of many substitutes who would have accepted Catelyn's explanation so willingly and then helped her at the risk of his life - and indeed, Robar paid the ultimate price because of stupid Loras.

 

Andar Royce, the eldest, we know nothing about, but I do hope he plays more of an active role in the last two books. After all, he is the only remaining male heir for the senior branch of House Royce.



#15 Khal Shaggydog

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 09:36 AM

Something has to be up with their sets of Runestone armor, the fact that they are the only people we know of to actually have some kind of use for the written rune language of the First Men, and they are First Men descendants in a predominately Andal area.

 

They also are one of the Houses with vassal houses attached to them, rather than directly to their liege lords, the Arryns. Probably since they are so old. (Random note - fan favorite Dolorous Edd is from a vassal family to the Arryns).

 

I think the "magical" armor they inherit will come into play with the Others - people don't seem to believe it actually works, probably because some Royce was killed by a regular human with regular weapons. But for them to really hold on to it, to me, indicates some kind of ancient belief, sort of reminiscent of "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell".  You just do it, but for some reason, the people themselves forgot why.



#16 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 09:48 AM

Something has to be up with their sets of Runestone armor, the fact that they are the only people we know of to actually have some kind of use for the written rune language of the First Men, and they are First Men descendants in a predominately Andal area.

 

They also are one of the Houses with vassal houses attached to them, rather than directly to their liege lords, the Arryns. Probably since they are so old. (Random note - fan favorite Dolorous Edd is from a vassal family to the Arryns).

 

I think the "magical" armor they inherit will come into play with the Others - people don't seem to believe it actually works, probably because some Royce was killed by a regular human with regular weapons. But for them to really hold on to it, to me, indicates some kind of ancient belief, sort of reminiscent of "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell".  You just do it, but for some reason, the people themselves forgot why.

 

Always good to know and hear more about Edd.

 

I have a couple questions on the rune studded armor.  I'm wondering

 

1.  Could any of it be made of Valyrian Steel (either the armor or at least the runes)?

2.  Is it new armor or handed down (or, are at least the runes, perhaps made of Valyrian steel, handed down)?

 

Although, I suppose if the runes spelled out a certain bit of magical protection from the Others, that could be something in itself.  But, the above ideas made me realize that it could be possible that at least the runes themselves could be handed down, even if the armor itself is new.  Valyrian steel and the doubling down with a spell could be worthwhile.  That also reminds me, I always notice in the GOT prologue that the Other Waymar fights seems to inspect his blade, confirming for himself perhaps that it is not Valyrian steel? 



#17 oursisthefury69

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 11:08 AM

^ @LadyFevreDream   "Could any of it be made of Valyrian steel?"  Well its bronze armor



#18 TheCrannogDweller

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 11:51 AM

Nope. Different branch of the family tree, the Royces descended from this Stark daughter have married into the Waynwoods and other noble families some generations ago. No living descendant still bears the name Royce.

 

   Unless a female descendant from one of those three daughters has married back into one of the Royces. Though I imagine the generation gap would be too narrow for that.

 

That also reminds me, I always notice in the GOT prologue that the Other Waymar fights seems to inspect his blade, confirming for himself perhaps that it is not Valyrian steel? 

 

   Actually, I think his blade reflects the white moonlight for a bit, which is what gives the White Walker a pause. So, if anything, he isn't looking for Valyrian steel - he's looking for Dawn. 

Here's the quote:

 

 

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal.

 

   Otherwise, I think you're on the right track here. The runes on the bronze armor are probably some sort of magical protection against the Others. That is, unless the whole thing has a purely ceremonial purpose. I don't think a bronze armor offers any sensible protection against even a common steel sword.

 

Edit: I just had a thought - what if the Daynes and the Royces are merely the caretakers for the Last Hero's sword and armor?


Edited by TheCrannogDweller, 27 May 2014 - 12:01 PM.


#19 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 12:21 PM

^ @LadyFevreDream   "Could any of it be made of Valyrian steel?"  Well its bronze armor

 

Thank you, I didn't go look it up......and still though, wonder about the runes themselves.  I'm trying to recall who exactly describes the armor in the text anyway,



#20 Khal Shaggydog

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 12:26 PM

No one really describes the armor in detail that I can recall, but I don't think there is any VS going on there. The Royces are descendants of the First Men, which means they have been in Westeros for thousands and thousands of years (prob close to the Stark/Dayne number for 8-10), and they predate the use of VS.  Most of the Great Houses didnt get their VS blades until 400-500 years ago (Starks, Mormonts).

 

Its bronze armor, which was worked way earlier than steel because you need less heat and less sophistication. Like the Thenns use, from way way up North beyond the wall.  So its a crappy quality metal, way less strong than steel, that somehow has the reputation that the wearer cannot be hurt. 

 

Im guessing the significance has something to do with the Others, protection from them, and possibly there are further clues at Runestone, if indeed there is some kind of rune carvings there that most people have forgotten about.

 

"We Remember" is pretty interesting - but we don't know WHAT they remember.