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Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part III: ASoS & ADwD


MoIaF

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Welcome to the Daenerys Re-read Project!

Before we get started with our discussion, Id like to take a moment to thank the amazing group of posters who have agreed be part of the team analyzing Danys chapters.

  • Annara Snow
  • Arya kiddin'
  • BearQueen87
  • GoldenFleece2
  • HelenaAndTheMachine
  • MoIaF
  • PatrickStormborn
  • SeanF
  • Suzanna Stormborn
  • The Good Queen Alysanne
  • TheMysteriousOne

Now lets get down to business:

The aim of the re-read project is to gain a better understanding of Danys character: by analyzing her motivations and her unique prospective. We would also like to gain a better understanding of the (very distinct) environment in which she finds herself. The structure of the re-read will be a chapter by chapter review. Each week one of us will be presenting a chapter for discussion. We will be summarizing / analyzing all of Danys 31 chapters as well as Barristans 4 chapters.

We want to have a clear discussion looking objectively at the text. This isnt a appreciation thread so we ask that posters stay focus on the discussion at hand.

As with most re-reads there are a few ground rules which we would appreciate you follow:

  • Discussion should focus on the chapters of the week (or previous chapters). You can reference future chapters if necessary for the discussion, but please stay on topic.
  • When discussion please refrain from making unsubstantiated comments or be disrespectful towards other posters. We are aiming to do an objective analysis and it would be greatly appreciated if we stay on topic and not argue with each other about our personal feeling about the character.
  • Your observations are very important to our discussion; if you find instances of foreshadowing, interesting symbolisms, important parallels with other characters or other thoughts that can add to our discussion please share them with us. When ever possible quote from the text, itll help enrich the discussion.

Below you will find the schedule for our discussion. We aim to stick to the schedule as closely as possible; however, we ask that you bear with us if there are any delays.

ASoS
Daenerys I 5/4/14 PatrickStormborn
Daenerys II 5/11/14 MoIaF
Daenerys III 5/18/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys IV 6/1/14 MoIaF
Daenerys V 6/22/14 TheMysteriousOne

Daenerys VI 7/2/14 Queen Alysanne

ADwD
Daenerys I 7/6/14 PatickStormborn
Daenerys II 7/13/14 TheMysteriousOne
Daenerys III 7/20/14 BearQueen87
Daenerys IV 7/27/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Daenerys V 8/3/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys VI 8/10/14 MoIaF
Daenerys VII 8/17/14 Queen Alysanne
Daenerys VIII 8/24/14 SeanF
Daenerys IX 9/7/14 MoIaF
Daenerys X 9/23/14 QueenAlysanne

Barristan I 9/14/14 Parwan
Barristan II 9/17/14 Parwan
Barristan II 9/19/14 HelenaAndTheMachine

Barristan IV 9/21/14 HelenaAndTheMachine

Tyrion II 7/9/14 Mladen
Tyrion III 7/16/14 Mladen
Tyrion VI 7/30/14 Mladen
Tyrion VII 8/6/14 Mladen
Tyrion VIII 8/13/14 Mladen
Tyrion IX 8/19/14 Mladen
Tyrion X 8/27/14 Mladen
Tyrion XI 8/31/14 Mladen
Tyrion XII 9/10/14 Mladen

Quentyn I 7/23/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Quentyn II 8/2/14 Arya kiddon'
Quentyn III 9/3/14 MoIaF
Quentyn IV 9/12/14 Queen Alysanne

Here you'll find our previous discussions of Dany's AGoT and ACoK chapters:

AGoT

Daenerys I 1/5/14 Queen Alysanne
Daenerys II 1/12/14 MoIaF
Daenerys III 1/19/14 SeanF
Daenerys IV 1/26/14 MoIaF
Daenerys V 2/2/14 MoIaF / GoldenFleece2
Daenerys VI 2/9/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys VII 2/16/14 Suzanna Stormborn
Daenerys VIII 2/23/14 Arya kiddin
Daenerys IX 3/2/14 TheMysteriousOne
Daenerys X 3/9/14 PatrickStormborn


ACoK
Daenerys I 3/23/14 GoldenFleece2
Daenerys II 3/30/14 Queen Alysanne
Daenerys III 4/6/14 SeanF
Daenerys IV 4/13/14 MoIaF
Daenerys V 4/20/14 Suzanna Sromborn

Resources:
There have been a few Daenerys re-reads in the past and I though I'd add links to them as they might be helpful to us in our re-read.

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Volunteers Wanted!



​As we head into the homestretch (ADwD) Dany's character becomes an important part of other POV's . As such we would like to include a summary of how these POV's help us better understand Dany. We are looking for volunteers to help summarize (a paragraph or two) the information we are given about Dany to help us better analyze the character. If you are interesting in in summarizing any of the chapters listed above and marked with ??? please PM me.



Thank you! :cheers:


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Sorry for the light analysis, I didn't have a lot of time.

Daenerys IV ASOS

The Warrior Queen & The Mhysa



SUMMARY

The chapter begins with Dany observing the Yunkai forces, which are in her path, she analysis their strength wit the help of Whitebeard (aka Barristan) who is teaching her how to count armies. The Yunkai have hired two sellsowrd companies to help them fight Danys forces; The Second Sons and The Stomcrows. The Yunkish forces arent as formidable as those of the Unsullied as Yunkai is know not for training slaves for war but for pleasure.

As Danys observing the opposing forces she asks Ser Jorah if they are able to defeat them, Ser Jorah answer her that they could do it easily. Dany reminisces about the events in Astapor and is weary of more bloodshed. She is also weary of the mounted warrior on the Yunkai side who would easily slaughter her freedmen who are on foot. She decides to meet with the three groups (The Stromcrows, The Second Suns and the Yunkish forces) separately.

As she heads back to her camp she observes the Unsullied who are making camp, she noticed Grey Worm and rides to him. Once the Unsullied were freed Dany asked them to select offices, Grey Worm was overwhelmingly chosen as they leader and Dany put him under the command of Ser Jorah for training. Grey Worm chose to keep the name he had the day Dany freed him because he believed it to be lucky, he thought that the name he had as a child was cursed as it was the name he had when he was taken as a slave.

As she heads to her pavilion she observes the freedmen camp of people who followed her from Astapor. She is weary that they have decided to follow her as most of them were not warrior, have very few useful good and were eating the land bare. However, she does not want to stop them from following her as she feels it wouldnt be right. as they are free now, they should be free to choose to follow her.

Later on the day she begins her meetings with the opposing forces. She tries to convince them all to either become her allies or in the case of the Yunkish to surrender. At night Dany begins plotting to take down the Yunkish forces by stealth. As she is preparing to send her men out Daario Naharis appears and pledges his sword and that of his company to Dany, as proof of his allegiance to her he brings her the head of the other two captains of The Stormcrows. Danys forces are able to defeat the forces and on the third day as per her request to the Yunkish the slaves of Yunkai are freed and as she rides towards them they begin to call her Mhysa (mother).

OBSERVATIONS

  • Dany leaves Astapor in the care of a council of former slaves lead by a healer, a scholar and a priest. Although it would seem these are reasonable choices to rule a city, they are in fact probably not because they dont have the military support theyll need to rule a city after a revolution.
  • We are introduced to the very flamboyant Daario Naharis and Dany is attracted to him. This exchange is interesting:


We know that he is a great fighter.
A great talker, you mean.
He brings us the Stormcrows. And he has blue eyes.

  • I like the way the Unsullied decided to choose their names. While some went back to using the names their were born with others chose them as they wished: Most of those born free had returned to their birth names; those who still remembered them, at least. Others had called themselves after heroes or gods, and sometimes weapons, gems, and even flowers, which resulted in soldiers with some very peculiar names, to Danys ears.
  • Dany begins using her infamous phrase: I am only a young girl and do not understand the ways of war as a way of disarming her enemies by leading them to underestimate her.
  • Once again we see Danys connection to Drogon. When she commands Drogon to burn the Yunkish envoy he knows enough to just burn away his headpiece.
  • Dany reminisces on the fact that she cant have children, and thinks to herself that her dragons will have to do.


ANALYSIS

Divide and Conquer

As part of her plan to defeat the Yunkish forces Dany decides to appeal to the two sellsword companies and have them serve her instead of the Yunkai. She first meets with The Stormcrows as they enter her tent she observes:

They wore black feathers on their polished helms, and claimed to be all equal in honor and authority. Dany studied them as Irri and Jhiqui poured the wine.

Prendahl na Ghezn was a thickset Ghiscari with a broad face and dark hair going grey; Sallor the Bald had a twisting scar across his pale Qartheen cheek; and Daario Naharis was flamboyant even for a Tyroshi. His beard was cut into three prongs and dyed blue, the same color as his eyes and the curly hair that fell to his collar. His pointed mustachios were painted gold.

His clothes were all shades of yellow; a foam of Myrish lace the color of butter spilled from his collar and cuffs, his doublet was sewn with brass medallions in the shape of dandelions, and ornamental goldwork crawled up his high leather boots to his thighs. Gloves of soft yellow suede were tucked into a belt of gilded rings, and his fingernails were enameled blue.

We only get a one sentence description of the other to captains of the Strormcrows and almost two paragraphs describing Daario.

When Dany begins negotiating with the captains of the Stromcrows it is Prendahl who tells her the they will not turn of the Yunkish. Dany and him begin trading insults with him, he calls her a horselords whore and she telling him hes not a man. As they group leaves Daario inclines his head to her in farewell. Dany is told by her advisors that it is unlikely The Stormcrows will turn as Prendahl is Ghiscri and he probably had family in Astapor.

Next up are The Second Sons who are commanded by Mero who calls himself The Titans Bastard. Mero begins the conversation by telling Dany that he slept with her twin in a pleasure house. From there on they begin training insults back and forth:

The big man laughed. Little girl, another woman once tried to geld me with her teeth. She has no teeth now, but my sword is as long and thick as ever. Shall I take it out and show you?

No need. After my eunuchs cut it off, I can examine it at my leisure. Dany took a sip of wine. It is true that I am only a young girl, and do not know the ways of war. Explain to me how you propose to defeat ten thousand Unsullied with your five hundred. Innocent as I am, these odds seem poor to me.

The Second Sons have faced worse odds and won. The Second Sons have faced worse odds and run. At Qohor, when the Three Thousand made their stand. Or do you deny it? That was many and more years ago, before the Second Sons were led by the Titans Bastard.

So it is from you they get their courage? Dany turned to Ser Jorah. When the battle is joined, kill this one first.

Mero says hell think about switching and asks Dany for tun of wine, Dany tells him shell give him a wagon. As he leaves Dany is warned by both Barristan and Ser Jorah that Mero has a reputation as far as Westeros for being treacherous and that they need to watch out for him.

Finally, the Yunkish envoys arrive. They begin by telling Dany that they will enslave all the people she has freed when they defeat her. Then, their leader Grazdan tries to reason with Dany and even offers her a chest full of gold. In answer Dany says:

Three days. On the morning of the third day, send out your slaves. All of them. Every man, woman, and child shall be given a weapon, and as much food, clothing, coin, and goods as he or she can carry. These they shall be allowed to choose freely from among their masters possessions, as payment for their years of servitude. When all the slaves have departed, you will open your gates and allow my Unsullied to enter and search your city, to make certain none remain in bondage. If you do this, Yunkai will not be burned or plundered, and none of your people shall be molested. The Wise Masters will have the peace they desire, and will have proved themselves wise indeed. What say you?

After hearing her terms the envoy calls her mad, Dany responds by having Drogon burn his tokar. Barristan throws water over him to put out the fire. As he leaves Dany tells him that if her demands are not met she will have Drogon give him a warmer kiss. As he leaves he is angered and tells her:

Grazdan mo Eraz pointed a finger. You shall rue this arrogance, whore. These little lizards will not keep you safe, I promise you. We will fill the air with arrows if they come within a league of Yunkai. Do you think it is so hard to kill a dragon?

Harder than to kill a slaver. Three days, Grazdan. Tell them. By the end of the third day, I will be in Yunkai, whether you open your gates for me or no.

This is a very astute strategy that Dany is employing, divide and conquer. Even though she wasnt able to term them immediately she created discourse and chaos amongst the camps. She create discourse with the Stormcorws leading to Daario killing his partners and pledging for Dany and she gets the Second Sons to underestimate her and get drunk thinking she poses no threat.

Im just not that into you

After Daarion pledges his allegiance to Dany she has him accompany her other men, Ser Jorah is immediately weary:

Daenerys, I am thrice your age, Ser Jorah said. I have seen how false men are. Very few are worthy of trust, and Daario Naharis is not one of them. Even his beard wears false colors.

That angered her. Whilst you have an honest beard, is that what you are telling me? You are the only man I should ever trust? He stiffened. I did not say that.

You say it every day. Pyat Prees a liar, Xaros a schemer, Belwas a braggart, Arstan an assassin do you think Im still some virgin girl, that I cannot hear the words behind the words?

Your Grace

She bulled over him. You have been a better friend to me than any I have known, a better brother than Viserys ever was. You are the first of my Queensguard, the commander of my army, my most valued counselor, my good right hand. I honor and respect and cherish you but I do not desire you, Jorah Mormont, and I am weary of your trying to push every other man in the world away from me, so I must needs rely on you and you alone. It will not serve, and it will not make me love you any better.

This is the last straw for Dany she is tired of Ser Jorah trying to isolate her from other men. She calls him out on his behavior and Ser Jorah becomes cold and curt ,however, he does as she requested.

Although Dany is very fond of Ser Jorah she is simply not attracted to him. Her feelings for him are familiar rather than romantic.

History Lesson

As Dany waits for news of the battle against the Yunkai she asks Barristan to tell her about her brother Rhaegar. Dany brings up what little she knows from Viserys but Barristan reluctantly corrects her:

Prince Rhaegars prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance. He won some tourneys , surely ,

Barristan tells her about Harrenhal; Dany then wonders why he crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty and asks if Elia treated him badly. They continue to talk and Barristan tells her about the sadness that was part of Rhaegar and how it related to him being born right after Summerhall.

Mhysa

Danys forces are able to defeat the Yunkai with the help of The Stromcrows and because the Second Sons were to drunk to fight. Many of the slaves (of the slave army) put down their weapons and join Dany.

On the third day the slaves of Yunkai begin to march out and as Dany rides towards them they begin to call her mother. Dany thinks to herself that this reminded her of the dream she had in the HOTU and begins to ride towards them.

CONCLUSION

This is a very interesting chapter we see Dany as both a military leader and as a a mother. She plots against her enemies and devises plans to free more slaves and yet is weary of all the people she is now and will be in charge of. This dichotomy is something that Dany will continue to struggle with.

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Good job, MoIaF.



Concerning the matter of Dany's leaving Astapor, I want to carry forward some thoughts from my last post on the previous thread. They concern the argument about how many people were killed in the city and the significance of this number:



"Then there is the question of how all of this effects the city. I suppose we can talk about the matter now. If we put the discussion off until after the next POV analysis, it may get lost in debates about the sellswords, the Yunkai'i, etc.



If you kill only the top leaders of a place, and these top leaders are bad guys, then you have, in all probability, done more good than harm. The more killing you do and the wider the scope of this killing, the more likely that things will turn around. The harm may be greater than the good. It is near certain that you will kill individuals with skills that are useful, maybe even necessary, to the governance and economy of the place. There are also many unanticipated consequences. For example, you may kill a very important merchant who has a large cache of weapons. As a result, a butcher, formerly working as a slave of this merchant, gains control of the weapons. Dany could not have anticipated this particular result. However, any leader has to be able to see that there are unanticipated consequences of violent action. This in itself is an adequate reason for limiting violence."



The composition of the council is thus not the only issue. It's probably not the main issue. If Dany's forces killed a lot of merchants, managers, captains of fishing boats, etc., then she left the city in very bad shape. At any rate, she left quickly. There was no transition period. Finally, there is no defense force worthy of the name. I cannot see what she did as a good move. How bad was it? That, I believe, is debatable.


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Many thanks, MOIAF. I'll comment in detail tomorrow.

In answer to your question, Parwan, she left a council of *freed slaves* in charge, led by the scholar, healer, and priest. That may suggest that there were indeed very few adult free (not ex-slaves) citizens left alive in Astapor. Or if they were left alive in large numbers, that they were excluded from having any share in the city's government. If the latter, that was always going to be a recipe for trouble.

Possibly, the councillors who were overthrown by Cleon were pushing for a policy of reconciliation with the free citizens, which Cleon was able to present as restoring them to power.

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If you would allow me to jump in the conversation, regarding Astapor.



Dany could not have completely annihilated the upper classes of Astapor. This kind of thing takes organization and planning. On the other hand she told the Unsullied to kill all the slaver and to free all slaves. As such, it doesn't sound to me that they would stop in the plaza. My understanding is that it took the form of a riot that would have gone on throughout the city until any individuals with such characteristics were out of sight, notwithstanding the fact that the Usullied not being the unthinking automatons their masters hoped to turn them into, were more than ready to turn on their former masters. Under such condition of course there would have been significant collateral damage.



The aftermath can be condenced to the fact that she left a power vacum behind. As brutal as the previous regiment was it was established and overthrowing it would result in chaos or at the very least a time of upheaval. Dany, in this chapter demonstrates naivete as she believes that by appointing three individuals who she believes people will listen to. This subject will come up again in the Dance with Dragons with the eventual fate of Astapor and the question that will weigh on Dany bolis down this: was it worth it? Balancing the lives of future generations against the lives and welfare of the denizens of one city? This is the kind of responsibility that Dany has taken upon her shoulders.


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Sorry for the light analysis, I didn't have a lot of time.

Daenerys IV ASOS

The Warrior Queen & The Mhysa

It is a fine job, MoIaF.

We get a look at Dany as a quick learner and also as an inexperienced commander.

Her Dothraki scouts had told her how it was, but Dany wanted to see for herself. Ser Jorah Mormont rode with her through a birchwood forest and up a slanting sandstone ridge. “Near enough,” he warned her at the crest.

Whitebeard had been teaching her how best to count the numbers of a foe. “Five thousand,” she said after a moment.

“I’d say so.” Ser Jorah pointed.

Barristan has taught her how to estimate troop strengths and her count matches the far more experienced Jorah's. At the same time she needs to be told where to stop on the ridge as she isn't as familiar with bow ranges and the skill of estimating distances that someone with archery experience would know.

The choice to see the scouting information herself is another wise choice and good learning experience. This allows her to get the scouting report, come up with a picture in her own head, and then test that mental image against reality. This serves to refine the scouting report and if she does this often enough she won't need to see herself anymore.

Dany also manifests a good ability to read people.

“They’ll come. They will be curious to see the dragons and hear what I might have to say, and the clever ones will see it for a chance to gauge my strength.” She wheeled her silver mare about. “I’ll await them in my pavilion.”

Over the course of DwD I think Dany fails to continue to do this in many respects so I think it is important to make note of it now. Here we're being shown a bright girl with good intuitions and an ability to read and predict other people who has an aptitude and appetite for learning quickly. We also see her make decisions under pressure without being paralyzed by the potential fallout.

It is also worth noting that Dany is still concerned for these Astapor refugees that followed her despite them being more trouble than the asset of their numbers. Jorah and her bloodriders encourage her to send them away but she refuses. There are said to be tens of thousands which puts them at a minimum of 20,000. One in ten is said to be strong enough to fight which adds at least 2,000 armed and untrained soldiers-- still most carried weapons. A more ruthlessly pragmatic leader would have sent the 18,000+ armed former slaves unfit to fight in first to rid himself of useless mouths to feed and then sent in the disciplined troops to exploit the chaos. At this point Dany is thinking that Astapor will be fine, but she still accepts responsibility for "the consequences" by taking in these people and doing her best to shelter them.

Astapor, Yunkai, and the end state of justice.

Dany's course here seems to be guided by her conclusion about monarchs being made for justice. Slavery as an injustice in Dany's view is clear based on her demands to the Yunkai. Astapor gives us a bloody ending of slavery that will fail to achieve a just end state with the chaos that will ensue after Dany's departure. Yunkai is a bloodless and peaceful ending of slavery but also fails to achieve a just end state as these Yunkai will begin their slaving ways as soon as Dany leaves. I think this is intentional on Martin's part to show us a bloody and a peaceful addressing of the slavery problem that both fail. It just isn't a problem that can be fixed on demand.

Dany has also embraced this slavery smashing mission more fully than she has openly voiced or thought in her POV. She has the army she set out to acquire in detouring to Astapor and the Yunkai are taking the Dothraki appeasement path with Dany assuming she is looking for plunder to fund her retaking of the Iron Throne. Dany doesn't ask for more or ask for ships like she will later in Meereen. She's intent on crushing the slave trade in Slavers Bay and Westeros is entirely secondary to that right now.

Both cities are important for Dany's far reaching messianic liberator reputation. She smashed Astapor and then bent Yunkai to her will which is the same process of enslaving as we'll see later from Tyrion's POV. Military force takes you prisoner and the threat of force makes you willingly comply as a slave. This has to resonate with slaves in a city like Volantis to know someone has broken the slavers the same way the slavers have broken them. There's an angle to Varys riddle here where the slaves truly have a tremendous amount of power but simply lack a "belief" that can hold it. Dany is becoming a belief and that belief may well be the power that ends slavery in Essos indifferent to the particulars of her successes or failures in Slavers Bay or Meereen.

Love, Happiness, and Rhaegar

Dany still seems to be identifying with Rhaegar over Viserys here as she asks Barristan for more tales of her unknown brother. She doesn't want to hear stories of Rhaegar losing jousts since she sees herself as a Rhaegar figure and is awaiting the outcome of her own joust of sorts. Dany's understanding of the Rhaegar/Lyanna affair (almost certainly inherited from Viserys) is that Rhaegar was unhappy with Elia and sought out Lyanna for happiness. The fall of the Targaryen dynasty is being blamed on a lack of marital bliss. This has certain parallels in Dany's current circumstances since she's had her unhappy "marriage" to Jorah ever since he kissed her. Jorah fails to meet Dany's expectations of a fulfilling love interest the same way Elia is being portrayed as inadequate for Rhaegar. Along comes Daario to this joust and he's taking the role of <excuse me while I vomit> Lyanna.

There's some irony here in that Rhaegar was likely prophecy obsessed and Elia couldn't have more children which is part of where Lyanna fits in. I do actually think there was a real love story there apart from the prophecy. The ever melancholy Rhaegar sets Lyanna up in the Tower of Joy-- it may even have been built on or near the ruins of Summerhall out of the stones of Summerhall which would be metaphorically cool, but I digress. Dany's three dragon children are what Rhaegar was trying to achieve with all his prophetic obsessions with having three children for the three heads of the dragon.

This does contain a bit of Dany inserting a happy marriage into the dynamic of a successful monarch with connecting the fall of House Targaryen to Rhaegar's seeking out Lyanna for Elia's supposed shortcomings. There's an unfair blame and burden placed on Elia here for Rhaegar's unhappiness. Viserys transfers it to Dany, but even Dany's retort about Viserys not being born a girl still leaves the woman to blame in the end. I'm not sure we're supposed to take the parallels in such an exacting fashion, but I do think the theme of happiness in a loving relationship is an important one for Dany's story and it is very curious that it comes up here in terms of Rhaegar's backstory and the Tournament at Harrenhal in the False Spring.

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Sorry for the light analysis, I didn't have a lot of time.

Daenerys IV ASOS

The Warrior Queen & The Mhysa

Many thanks.

This chapter is a very good example of the way in which Martin forces the reader to re-evaluate a character's actions, through later chapters in the series.

Without reading ADWD, one would assume that this was a complete triumph for Dany. She outwits the Yunkish envoy, tricks the Second Sons, wins a complete, and almost bloodless victory, and forces the Yunkish to abolish slavery. The next chapter will be similar, as will her storming of Meereen.

But, it won't turn out well in the long run. Dany acquires a reputation for duplicity, and violating bargains, that will serve her badly in ADWD. Leaving Yunkai unoccupied allows her enemies to regroup, and resume slavery. Worse, they will send out envoys to other slave cities, and rapidly assemble a powerful coalition to fight her. The consequences of leaving Yunkai unoccupied, are different from the consequences of leaving Astapor unoccupied, but just as damaging.

The problem is that at this point, Dany hasn't decided why she's in Slavers Bay yet. Is it a hit and run operation, to gather plunder on the way to Westeros (freeing slaves on the way, but leaving them to defend their own freedom?) Or does she want to stay there for the long term?

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Many thanks.

This chapter is a very good example of the way in which Martin forces the reader to re-evaluate a character's actions, through later chapters in the series.

Without reading ADWD, one would assume that this was a complete triumph for Dany. She outwits the Yunkish envoy, tricks the Second Sons, wins a complete, and almost bloodless victory, and forces the Yunkish to abolish slavery. The next chapter will be similar, as will her storming of Meereen.

But, it won't turn out well in the long run. Dany acquires a reputation for duplicity, and violating bargains, that will serve her badly in ADWD. Leaving Yunkai unoccupied allows her enemies to regroup, and resume slavery. Worse, they will send out envoys to other slave cities, and rapidly assemble a powerful coalition to fight her. The consequences of leaving Yunkai unoccupied, are different from the consequences of leaving Astapor unoccupied, but just as damaging.

The problem is that at this point, Dany hasn't decided why she's in Slavers Bay yet. Is it a hit and run operation, to gather plunder on the way to Westeros (freeing slaves on the way, but leaving them to defend their own freedom?) Or does she want to stay there for the long term?

Exactly! This is how I feel about her as well. Of course she has good intentions. But if SB is just a stop on the road to Westeros then she is getting in far too deep to simply abandon Meereen at this point, otherwise everything she has been building towards in book 3 and 5 will have been a waste, and she will simply revert back to her original goal in book 1 and 2. Plus it would make her decision to take root in Meereen originally completely superfluous.

Great Write up MOIAF :) Ill respond in more detail tomorrow.

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...

But, it won't turn out well in the long run.

1. Dany acquires a reputation for duplicity, and violating bargains, that will serve her badly in ADWD.

2. Leaving Yunkai unoccupied allows her enemies to regroup, and resume slavery. Worse, they will send out envoys to other slave cities, and rapidly assemble a powerful coalition to fight her. The consequences of leaving Yunkai unoccupied, are different from the consequences of leaving Astapor unoccupied, but just as damaging.

3. The problem is that at this point, Dany hasn't decided why she's in Slavers Bay yet. Is it a hit and run operation, to gather plunder on the way to Westeros (freeing slaves on the way, but leaving them to defend their own freedom?) Or does she want to stay there for the long term?

1. Perhaps she has such a reputation, but I'm not sure it matters much. I'm not sure that "duplicity and violating bargains" means much in this situation or to these people. As I've said, Slaver's Bay, among other things, is a gigantic kleptocracy. These people obviously have no respect for the norms and laws of others. They work hand and glove with pirates. It's hard to believe that one city even trusts the others. In an earlier post, you mentioned Kraznys's advice to the queen--blood your troops early and sack cities. Any other city (including Yunkai and Meereen) could legitimately regard the deal made in Astapor as a criminal conspiracy. And did anyone in Astapor (or even anyone in SB) have a reasonable expectation of adherence to the spirit of some supposed "contract"? After all, they are dealing with a whore from the savage west. Furthermore, she doesn't hide the fact that she is a khaleesi. If you let a khalasar inside your walls and turn your best fighters over to them, what do you think is likely to happen?

Grazdan says that Daenerys committed unspecified "savageries in Astapor." In my opinion, the only "savagery" that he and his associates are truly alarmed by is the "breaking of chains."

2. True. This matter relates to a number of issues that have been widely discussed. Some of them--

It is clear that the freedmen who accompany Dany's army are a burden to her. Yet in Yunkai she frees even more slaves, who will further encumber the progress of her army. Some posters contend that Dany's anti-slavery campaign is hypocritical. She only launches it when it becomes convenient for her to free slave soldiers. This is a very weak argument.

I don't think that Dany is all that bad at listening to and considering advice. For one thing, not all the advice she gets is good. Jorah's idea of a long march is an example of poor advice. His argument that there were perils in a sea voyage was, I'd say, not convincing. In the final analysis, however, Daenerys is the leader, and she has to take most of the responsibility. She should have stayed in Astapor. (But It should be noted that Jorah will also advise Dany to bypass Meereen. That would have made things even worse.)

And the matter also relates to--

3. Right. Dany seems to be making up the rules as she goes. It is legitimate to criticize her abilities in long-term planning.

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1. Perhaps she has such a reputation, but I'm not sure it matters much. I'm not sure that "duplicity and violating bargains" means much in this situation or to these people. As I've said, Slaver's Bay, among other things, is a gigantic kleptocracy. These people obviously have no respect for the norms and laws of others. They work hand and glove with pirates. It's hard to believe that one city even trusts the others. In an earlier post, you mentioned Kraznys's advice to the queen--blood your troops early and sack cities. Any other city (including Yunkai and Meereen) could legitimately regard the deal made in Astapor as a criminal conspiracy. And did anyone in Astapor (or even anyone in SB) have a reasonable expectation of adherence to the spirit of some supposed "contract"? After all, they are dealing with a whore from the savage west. Furthermore, she doesn't hide the fact that she is a khaleesi. If you let a khalasar inside your walls and turn your best fighters over to them, what do you think is likely to happen?

Grazdan says that Daenerys committed unspecified "savageries in Astapor." In my opinion, the only "savagery" that he and his associates are truly alarmed by is the "breaking of chains."

2. True. This matter relates to a number of issues that have been widely discussed. Some of them--

It is clear that the freedmen who accompany Dany's army are a burden to her. Yet in Yunkai she frees even more slaves, who will further encumber the progress of her army. Some posters contend that Dany's anti-slavery campaign is hypocritical. She only launches it when it becomes convenient for her to free slave soldiers. This is a very weak argument.

I don't think that Dany is all that bad at listening to and considering advice. For one thing, not all the advice she gets is good. Jorah's idea of a long march is an example of poor advice. His argument that there were perils in a sea voyage was, I'd say, not convincing. In the final analysis, however, Daenerys is the leader, and she has to take most of the responsibility. She should have stayed in Astapor. (But It should be noted that Jorah will also advise Dany to bypass Meereen. That would have made things even worse.)

And the matter also relates to--

3. Right. Dany seems to be making up the rules as she goes. It is legitimate to criticize her abilities in long-term planning.

Certainly, the Yunkish don't merit good faith. But, as she finishes up settling among these people, rather than marching away, or exterminating them, it's an issue that will come back to haunt her.

In saying that they view her as negotiating in bad faith, I wasn't thinking so much of Astapor, as the attack on the envoy and breaking the truce. I don't think that the Yunkish were at all bothered by the fate of the Good Masters of Astapor, in and of itself. In ADWD, we'll see that the Slaver coalition has no qualms about massacring the free boys who were made into Cleon's Unsullied. Presumably, any surviving free Astapori were massacred along with the ex-slaves when the city was taken by storm.

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Certainly, the Yunkish don't merit good faith. But, as she finishes up settling among these people, rather than marching away, or exterminating them, it's an issue that will come back to haunt her.

In saying that they view her as negotiating in bad faith, I wasn't thinking so much of Astapor, as the attack on the envoy and breaking the truce. I don't think that the Yunkish were at all bothered by the fate of the Good Masters of Astapor, in and of itself. In ADWD, we'll see that the Slaver coalition has no qualms about massacring the free boys who were made into Cleon's Unsullied. Presumably, any surviving free Astapori were massacred along with the ex-slaves when the city was taken by storm.

The issue has several diverse and important aspects. In general, I'm very skeptical that there is or ever was much basis for trust between Dany and the leaders of SB. There is a question of good faith, and there is a question of what different people view as good faith. There is a fundamental question of just who is worthy of trust. A large matter here: in whom, if anyone, should Dany put her trust? I'm not saying that no sort of agreement is possible. It seems likely to me that, instead of good faith promises, solid guarantees (e.g. exchange of hostages) would be necessary. This business has emerged, but it will be much more important in ADwD.

I don't think there was all that much substance in the "attack" on the envoy. It seems likely enough that Dany didn't intend to catch the guy's tokar on fire. He wasn't injured. The Yunkai'i, however, are going to make a big deal about the event.

Dany, at best, was sneaky in her dealing with the sellswords and the Yunkai'i. Technically, she did give the city of Yunkai three days. I'll have more to say about this when we discuss the negotiations in ADwD. For now, it is worth noting that neither Mormont nor Selmy have problems with Dany's actions. Ser Jorah says, "I think you are Rhaegar Targaryen's sister." That's an interesting comment, seeing as how Jorah seems to feel that Rhaegar was too honorable.

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Good job, MoIaF.

Thanks!

Many thanks, MOIAF. I'll comment in detail tomorrow.

Gracias!

It is a fine job, MoIaF.

Merci!

Sorry, busy week. I don't have much time to write up in depth answer to your fine observation, however, something just occurred to me and I wanted to write it down before I forget.

Let me start first by quoting the end of Dany's last two chapters:

Dany III ASOS:

Dracarys!” they shouted back, the sweetest word she’d ever heard. “Dracarys! Dracarys!” And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire."

Dany IV ASOS:

“They will not hurt me,” she told him. “They are my children, Jorah.” She laughed, put her heels into her horse, and rode to them, the bells in her hair ringing sweet victory. She trotted, then cantered, then broke into a gallop, her braid streaming behind. The freed slaves parted before her. “Mother,” they called from a hundred throats, a thousand, ten thousand. “Mother,” they sang, their fingers brushing her legs as she flew by. “Mother, Mother, Mother!”
At the end of the last chapter, war is all around her. Her plan has worked and she is victorious over her enemies. They shouts of her battle cry (Dracarys) by her new followers are exhilarating to her, the sweetest words she has ever heard. Then, in the next chapter she achieves an almost bloodless victory over her enemies, her new followers then start to call her mother, and she rides towards them exhilarated once again by the defeat of her enemies and by the freedom she has brought to these people. The almost bloodless victory is also sweet.
Her I believe is where her struggle lies. Between a warrior and a mother. Both these roles are of incredible importance to her. I think her inner turmoil is in that she doesn't know how to be both, going from one extreme to the other. Can she find a balance between these two roles? Or does it have to be a zero-sum game where she has to choose one or the other? I don't know the answer honestly. But, from what I know of life, zero-sum hardly ever works. You won't be happy with everything but you can learn to accept most.
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Thanks!

Gracias!

Merci!

Sorry, busy week. I don't have much time to write up in depth answer to your fine observation, however, something just occurred to me and I wanted to write it down before I forget.

Let me start first by quoting the end of Dany's last two chapters:

Dany III ASOS:

Dracarys! they shouted back, the sweetest word shed ever heard. Dracarys! Dracarys! And all around them slavers ran and sobbed and begged and died, and the dusty air was filled with spears and fire."

Dany IV ASOS:

They will not hurt me, she told him. They are my children, Jorah. She laughed, put her heels into her horse, and rode to them, the bells in her hair ringing sweet victory. She trotted, then cantered, then broke into a gallop, her braid streaming behind. The freed slaves parted before her. Mother, they called from a hundred throats, a thousand, ten thousand. Mother, they sang, their fingers brushing her legs as she flew by. Mother, Mother, Mother!

At the end of the last chapter, war is all around her. Her plan has worked and she is victorious over her enemies. They shouts of her battle cry (Dracarys) by her new followers are exhilarating to her, the sweetest words she has ever heard. Then, in the next chapter she achieves an almost bloodless victory over her enemies, her new followers then start to call her mother, and she rides towards them exhilarated once again by the defeat of her enemies and by the freedom she has brought to these people. The almost bloodless victory is also sweet.

Her I believe is where her struggle lies. Between a warrior and a mother. Both these roles are of incredible importance to her. I think her inner turmoil is in that she doesn't know how to be both, going from one extreme to the other. Can she find a balance between these two roles? Or does it have to be a zero-sum game where she has to choose one or the other? I don't know the answer honestly. But, from what I know of life, zero-sum hardly ever works. You won't be happy with everything but you can learn to accept most.

Those are also examples of sweetness being a positive wrt Daenerys. I've never been a fan of the theory that sweetness has negative connotations for her.
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Those are also examples of sweetness being a positive wrt Daenerys. I've never been a fan of the theory that sweetness has negative connotations for her.

True, there are many examples of sweetness used to describe something positive for Dany. It's a silly theory which makes not sense. Just like with most characters the word is used interchangeably to describe positively and negatively things, as it is typical of the different uses of the word. However, I do have to say that GRRM uses the word an inordinate amount of times throughout ALL POV's.

ETA: Anyhow, this is beside the point. These two victories although almost completely opposite in process both brought her great joy and exhilaration. She gets this "high" from both helping people and from defeating her enemies.

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I don't think that Dany is all that bad at listening to and considering advice. For one thing, not all the advice she gets is good. Jorah's idea of a long march is an example of poor advice. His argument that there were perils in a sea voyage was, I'd say, not convincing. In the final analysis, however, Daenerys is the leader, and she has to take most of the responsibility. She should have stayed in Astapor. (But It should be noted that Jorah will also advise Dany to bypass Meereen. That would have made things even worse.)

Notably, Martin gives us no indication that anyone advised Dany against leaving Astapor or allowing the "Wise Masters" to stay in power. Barristan even says, in reference to the fall of Astapor, "Your Grace could not have known," so he didn't even foresee the possibility of that outcome. This is inexplicable to me. I don't think Barristan's defense lets Dany off the hook, and she doesn't either, retorting, "I am the queen. It was my place to know.”

I find it very hard to understand why Dany left the Yunkai slavers in power, leaving them a threat not just to her people but also to Astapor. That she did so despite having those slavers at her mercy was an extremely generous display of diplomacy. They'd previously rejected her offer and she subsequently put them at a far worse disadvantage. For those slavers -- people involved in abducting untold thousands of foreign citizens from sovereign territories -- to turn around and act as though she's the duplicitous one who can't be trusted or bargained with is laughable.

Later on we'll hear from a customs officer, Qavo Nagarys, who spreads many lies about Dany courtesy of the slavers, but as he admits, "the girl’s true sin cannot be denied. This arrogant child has taken it upon herself to smash the slave trade, but that traffic was never confined to Slaver’s Bay. It was part of the sea of trade that spanned the world, and the dragon queen has clouded the water."

No matter how honest Dany had been in dealing with slave masters, they still would've hated her, wanted her dead and spread lies to tarnish her image if she posed a threat to their ownership and trafficking of human beings. That's why, even if she'd stayed in Astapor, I think the surrounding slavers still would've gone to war against her. Can't tolerate the threat of a "bad example" when you're outnumbered 5 to 1 by slaves.

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I agree with what Ragnorak said.

Dany did not want to here about Rhaegar being unhorsed.

I think that pretty much sums up Dany's reluctance to hear anything negative about her family. It is a matter of time before she will become willing to accept the whole truth about her family.

When it comes to her abilities as a military commander, Dany proves to be not bad for an amateur. She manages to play divide and conquer with the sellswords, and attack under cover of night when they are not expecting an attack and visibility is decreased.

"You swore I would have safe conduct!"

I think Dany having her dragons set Grazdan's tokar aflame was completely unnecessary. Envoys are supposed to be avoided from being harmed. Of course, the Yunkai'i don't complain when Mantarys sends Dany back the pickled heads of her envoys. This comes back to bite her when the Yunkai'i say they won't negotiate with her in ADwD, and it was a useful excuse to keep her form the negotiating table.

Dany=Moses of ASOIAF

On the morning of the third day, send out your slaves. Every man, woman and child shall be given a weapon, and as much food, clothing, coin, and goods as he or she can carry. These they shall be allowed to choose freely from among their masters' possessions, as payment for their years of servitude.

Now the sons of Israel had done according to the word of Moses, for they had requested from the Egyptians articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing

-Exodus 3:22

I think Dany delivering these people from slavery, and having them ask their masters for goods, including valuables, as reparations for slavery gives her an aspect of Moses.

Let's take a look at the possible parallels between Dany and Moses:

-Whisked away from the hands of a king (Pharaoh/Robert) who wished them harm thinking

Hebrews/Targaryens would try to overthrow them

-Youngest of three children

-A member of royalty (Moses by adoption/Dany by birth)

I also think like Moses, she will take them to the "Promised Land" of Westeros away from Slaver's Bay across the Narrow Sea like Moses lead his people through the Red Sea. Westeros is described to Dany by Viserys as "our land," the land that is divinely hers.

About Rhaegar,

When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."

I think Rhaegar inherited the Targaryen gift for dragon dreams, and dreamed what was to befall his family, only unlike Daeron the Drunkard, he didn't turn to substance abuse to deal with his dreams. That would explain his unyielding sense of doom.

Even your royal father came to Harrenhal, when he had not left the keep for many years.

As to the tourney of Harrenhal, we learn from Barristan's POV that the real reason Aerys came to the tourney was because he suspected from what Varys told that Rhaegar was using it as a pretext to meet as many great lords as possible. Barristan does his part to keep the whole truth about her father from her. Although, I think Varys may have been right about Rhaegar. Rhaegar may have had Oswell visit his brother and have him host the tourney so Rhaegar could meet with great lords to call a Grand Council to force his father to abdicate. Who could blame him?

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Notably, Martin gives us no indication that anyone advised Dany against leaving Astapor or allowing the "Wise Masters" to stay in power. Barristan even says, in reference to the fall of Astapor, "Your Grace could not have known," so he didn't even foresee the possibility of that outcome. This is inexplicable to me. I don't think Barristan's defense lets Dany off the hook, and she doesn't either, retorting, "I am the queen. It was my place to know.

I find it very hard to understand why Dany left the Yunkai slavers in power, leaving them a threat not just to her people but also to Astapor. That she did so despite having those slavers at her mercy was an extremely generous display of diplomacy. They'd previously rejected her offer and she subsequently put them at a far worse disadvantage. For those slavers -- people involved in abducting untold thousands of foreign citizens from sovereign territories -- to turn around and act as though she's the duplicitous one who can't be trusted

or bargained with is laughable.

Later on we'll hear from a customs officer, Qavo Nagarys, who spreads many lies about Dany courtesy of the slavers, but as he admits, "the girls true sin cannot be denied. This arrogant child has taken it upon herself to smash the slave trade, but that traffic was never confined to Slavers Bay. It was part of the sea of trade that spanned the world, and the dragon queen has clouded the water."

No matter how honest Dany had been in dealing with slave masters, they still would've hated her, wanted her dead and spread lies to tarnish her image if she posed a threat to their ownership and trafficking of human beings. That's why, even if she'd stayed in Astapor, I think the surrounding slavers still would've gone

to war against her. Can't tolerate the threat of a "bad example" when you're outnumbered 5 to 1 by slaves.

Some might tolerate abolition in one city (they do after all, offer peace on those terms in ADWD). After all, it means more profit for the rest of them. The Volantenes however, are ideologically committed to destroying Danerys, because of her anti-slavery crusade (possibly, they hate the Targaryens anyway, because of Aegon I).
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Some might tolerate abolition in one city (they do after all, offer peace on those terms in ADWD). After all, it means more profit for the rest of them. The Volantenes however, are ideologically committed to destroying Danerys, because of her anti-slavery crusade (possibly, they hate the Targaryens anyway, because of Aegon I).

I think the issue for the Volantenes is much more immediate. The customs officer Tyrion and Haldon talked to in Volon Therys and later the widow on the waterfront lays down the situation pretty clearly. They have a huge slave population who is not only compliant, but has political power, at least some level of organization and has some religious connotations as well. It is also later intimated that they cannot trust their ow army, as it is comprised of slaves and believers of R'hlor. From their perspective it would seem imperative to crush Dany in order to stop the looming uprising, which in part Dany inspired. They same can be said for the other slave owning powers that wind up aligned against her. At the very least they are going to have to pay more for slaves which would be a blow to their economy.

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I think the issue for the Volantenes is much more immediate. The customs officer Tyrion and Haldon talked to in Volon Therys and later the widow on the waterfront lays down the situation pretty clearly. They have a huge slave population who is not only compliant, but has political power, at least some level of organization and has some religious connotations as well. It is also later intimated that they cannot trust their ow army, as it is comprised of slaves and believers of R'hlor. From their perspective it would seem imperative to crush Dany in order to stop the looming uprising, which in part Dany inspired. They same can be said for the other slave owning powers that wind up aligned against her. At the very least they are going to have to pay more for slaves which would be a blow to their economy.

Volantis is a fascinating place (and its description runs counter to those who think that Essos lacks depth). It is on the brink of revolution, partly social, and partly religious. At the same time, the rulers of Volantis see themselves as heirs to Valyria, and dream of reconquering the lands it once ruled. They're strongly ideologically committed to slavery, and thus determined to destroy Daenerys. Perhaps they also see a foreign war as being an excellent way of keeping a potentially rebellious army occupied, and maybe want to establish a permanent presence in Slavers Bay (in the same way, Sparta recruited its potentially rebellious helots to serve as soldiers abroad).

One can see too why the Slaver leaders are divided in how to deal with Daenerys. Some want to destroy her, but some of them hope to come to terms with each other. The Ghiscari have bad memories of Valyrian rule, and the thought of massive Volantene armed forces in Slavers Bay must make some of them nervous, notwithstanding they asked them for aid. Within Meereen, there are similar divisions. Clearly, many of the Great Masters want Dany dead. But others prefer to strike a deal with her. They must fear what would happen if their city was taken by storm; or how the Unsullied and freedmen would react if Dany was murdered.

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