The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones House Arryn Poster
House Arryn Poster
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

Advanced Crackpottery - The Mance Enigma


  • Please log in to reply
79 replies to this topic

#1 Lady Blizzardborn

Lady Blizzardborn

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,692 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:04 PM

Ladies and gentlemen,  I have an idea.  It's quite flimsy, based on very little evidence, but who knows?  Maybe it will turn out to be right.

 

There's not much we know about Mance Rayder.  He was raised at the Wall, supposedly born of Wildlings.  I think I remember someone saying his father was a Crow.  We don't know how old he was when the rangers found him.  We don't know who his father was, or who his mother was.  We know he was raised by the Night's Watch and was one of their best.  He was injured and his cloak was mended by the woman who tended to his hurts, mended with scarlet silk from Asshai.  When he returned to the Watch he was ordered to give up the cloak and refused.  Thus he began a life as a Wilding, the bane of the Night's Watch, and started on the road to becoming King Beyond the Wall.

 

I know there are those out there who think Mance is actually Rhaegar.  I say they are wrong.  But I can see where the idea comes from.  The red and black cloak for one thing, the musical ability, the fighting prowess and leadership ability.  Mance can be very Targ-like at times.  The education he has isn't an issue because Aemon was there to teach him if he wanted to learn.  Mance doesn't really quite fit in with the Wildings, but he never quite fit in with the Night's Watch either.  I propose a new possibility...

 

Mance Rayder is the son or grandson (great-grandson, etc) of Brynden Rivers Targaryen aka Bloodraven.  

 

Bloodraven was not only a member of the Night's Watch, he was Lord Commander for a time.  No one knows for certain when he disappeared, but he went up there with his nephew Aemon.  He's been missing a long time, certainly long enough to father a child before branching out into greenseer territory.  

 

What evidence do I have other than Bloodraven being up there at the right time, and Mance's Targ-like tendencies?  I have an entire one textual hint.  Mance's cloak is described in these terms "smoke and scarlet."  Or maybe it's "scarlet and smoke."  In The Mystery Knight Bloodraven's cloak is described as "smoke and scarlet" or "scarlet and smoke."  I don't have the books in my hands right now or I'd check to see which way it goes.

 

No other evidence.  This is pure gut-feeling territory.  It is, however, far more textually supported than my "Mance is Rhaegar's Twin" idea, which is so far out there I don't even bother to call it a theory.

 

By the way, I don't think Mance would be even vaguely aware of his having Targ blood.  The only way he would know is if Dalla or Aemon told him.  I don't know enough about Dalla to know if she could tell something like that, or would tell him if she did figure it out.  Aemon could certainly have put the pieces together, but whether he would have told Mance is hard to say.

 

Please share your thoughts.  If I'm completely mixed up on this, I do want to know.  And if I'm not, well hey, I may be on to something.


Edited by Lady Blizzardborn, 03 June 2014 - 05:05 PM.


#2 Dany Girl

Dany Girl

    Baddest Queen in Town

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,742 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:11 PM

Well Ran shot down the Mance=Rhaegar theory pretty hard ("fucking ridiculous" is the term I believe he used) but this on the other hand could be possible.

I don't see the point though if Mance doesn't know the truth. Even then, I don't see much point to the Mance=Targ theories in general.

I really think he's just some wilding boy that was abducted by the Watch and returned to his people, now on a mission to cause havoc for his kidnappers.

#3 Fool of a Book

Fool of a Book

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 829 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:13 PM

Good discussion... and personally the Abel/Bael parallels are not discussed often enough.

 

A blue flower in a chink in the wall could easily be Mance knowing about Gorne's Way, for example.


Edited by Fool of a Book, 03 June 2014 - 05:14 PM.


#4 Lady Blizzardborn

Lady Blizzardborn

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,692 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 07:02 PM

Well Ran shot down the Mance=Rhaegar theory pretty hard ("fucking ridiculous" is the term I believe he used) but this on the other hand could be possible.

I don't see the point though if Mance doesn't know the truth. Even then, I don't see much point to the Mance=Targ theories in general.

I really think he's just some wilding boy that was abducted by the Watch and returned to his people, now on a mission to cause havoc for his kidnappers.

A fair point.  Though I suppose if he is a Bloodraven descendant he will find out at some point.  

 

 

Good discussion... and personally the Abel/Bael parallels are not discussed often enough.

 

A blue flower in a chink in the wall could easily be Mance knowing about Gorne's Way, for example.

I have another theory that Bael had twins with the Stark girl and took one back with him.  They were down in the crypts long enough that the baby/babies could eat solid food and thus one could be parted from his mother.  Mance's mother could be descended from that (admittedly most likely non-existent) twin.



#5 ChildoftheTropicalForest

ChildoftheTropicalForest

    Sellsword

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 101 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 07:03 PM

Thank you Lady Blizzardborn.

 

Crackpot or no, your theory at least gives an alternate possibility to the Rhaegar is Mance view.  The one thing that kept eating me was the

Black and red cape and where the hidden Targaeryn ancestry originiated.  So thanks...food for thought.



#6 Fool of a Book

Fool of a Book

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 829 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 07:15 PM

A fair point.  Though I suppose if he is a Bloodraven descendant he will find out at some point.  

 

 

I have another theory that Bael had twins with the Stark girl and took one back with him.  They were down in the crypts long enough that the baby/babies could eat solid food and thus one could be parted from his mother.  Mance's mother could be descended from that (admittedly most likely non-existent) twin.

 I agree with this in essence.  Let me ask you, why is everyone so focused on Lyanna and the blue roses and NOT the KitN and the blue roses?

 

Val is descended from the NIght's King and his Other Wife IMO.  I would not be surprised if Val and her "sister" Dalla were considered a kind of unspoken royalty worthy of marrying the KitN.

 

ValDalla.  The Valkyries (choosers of the slain) of Valhalla (hall of the slain).... not sure if GRRM could make that any more obvious.



#7 JonCon's Red Beard

JonCon's Red Beard

    The one with the Targaryen Entitlement™

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,326 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 07:19 PM

If he's actually a Targaryen, what purpose would that achieve?



#8 Lady Blizzardborn

Lady Blizzardborn

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,692 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 08:16 PM

If he's actually a Targaryen, what purpose would that achieve?

Don't know yet. Dragon riding?  Another warrior in the battle of ice and fire?  If he's actually a Targaryen (and he's probably not) there will be a reason for it.

 

ETA: technically he wouldn't be a Targaryen, just a dragonseed.  Someone would have to legitimize him to make him a Targ.


Edited by Lady Blizzardborn, 03 June 2014 - 08:20 PM.


#9 Lady Blizzardborn

Lady Blizzardborn

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,692 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 08:19 PM

 I agree with this in essence.  Let me ask you, why is everyone so focused on Lyanna and the blue roses and NOT the KitN and the blue roses?

 

Val is descended from the NIght's King and his Other Wife IMO.  I would not be surprised if Val and her "sister" Dalla were considered a kind of unspoken royalty worthy of marrying the KitN.

 

ValDalla.  The Valkyries (choosers of the slain) of Valhalla (hall of the slain).... not sure if GRRM could make that any more obvious.

I think everyone is focused on Lyanna because it's known that the crown Rhaegar laid in her lap was of blue roses.  That's an undisputed fact whereas Bael the Bard is often consigned to myth.  Don't know how many of the fans believe Bael the Bard ever happened.  Clearly Mance believes it though or he wouldn't have chosen Abel for his bard name.

 

I've been saying Val is a descendant of Night's King. Glad to find a like-minded individual.  I think she could turn Jon, or someone else into the next Night's King. 



#10 The Bittersteel

The Bittersteel

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 954 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 08:21 PM

Bloodraven doesn't seem like the type to break his vows during his tenure as lord commander to sire a child and after he left wouldn't he have been pretty old?


Edited by The Bittersteel, 03 June 2014 - 08:21 PM.


#11 The Green Griffin

The Green Griffin

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 24 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 09:12 PM

Good discussion... and personally the Abel/Bael parallels are not discussed often enough.

 

A blue flower in a chink in the wall could easily be Mance knowing about Gorne's Way, for example.

 I agree with the first part. I thought of the blue flower as a reference to either the Starks or less likely a matrilineal line. I think they are only mentioned with Lyanna and the Bael story.



#12 The Green Griffin

The Green Griffin

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 24 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 09:13 PM

This theory could use a lot of the same evidence for the Mance=Rhaegar theory (the red silk, etc)



#13 The Green Griffin

The Green Griffin

    Commoner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 24 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 09:16 PM

I like it. It's interesting at least.



#14 Lady Blizzardborn

Lady Blizzardborn

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,692 posts

Posted 03 June 2014 - 09:22 PM

Bloodraven doesn't seem like the type to break his vows during his tenure as lord commander to sire a child and after he left wouldn't he have been pretty old?

We don't really know how old he was when he disappeared.  Men are actually fertile far longer than women are.  Given that LC's seem to serve until they die, it's likely that he did break his vows during his tenure as LC by leaving.  It could be argued he is still working to protect the realm, but he'd have a hard time explaining that to everyone.  That would also make him still LC, which means no after him was actually LC including Jon.

 

Thanks, The Green Griffin.  Yes the red silk is actually the only thing that ties into the text for this theory.  Both Mance and Bloodraven had black and red cloaks described with the exact same words.



#15 Lady Woodland

Lady Woodland

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 527 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:01 AM

Well Ran shot down the Mance=Rhaegar theory pretty hard ("fucking ridiculous" is the term I believe he used) but this on the other hand could be possible.

I don't see the point though if Mance doesn't know the truth. Even then, I don't see much point to the Mance=Targ theories in general.

I really think he's just some wilding boy that was abducted by the Watch and returned to his people, now on a mission to cause havoc for his kidnappers.

 

Except that Mance is mentioned by name in Bran Chapter I of aGoT. He is a hugely important character that too many people dismiss as "just some wildling" with a mission to cause havoc. Who's suggesting crackpot theories now?

 

How can you assume he doesn't know "the truth" there's plenty of text that backs up that Mance know's Jon on sight, recognises him, also why does he go back to WF, there is an agenda we just can't be sure what it is yet. I also disagree the point of the Mance = Targ theories are that logically there has to be a connection somewhere to the 17 missing years since the events at Harrenhall, & however trite or too obvious you might want to call it, more people are going to be found as "not dead" before the end of the series.



#16 SerArthurHeath

SerArthurHeath

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,366 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 02:44 AM

Ladies and gentlemen,  I have an idea.  It's quite flimsy, based on very little evidence, but who knows?  Maybe it will turn out to be right.
 
There's not much we know about Mance Rayder.  He was raised at the Wall, supposedly born of Wildlings.  I think I remember someone saying his father was a Crow.  We don't know how old he was when the rangers found him.  We don't know who his father was, or who his mother was.  We know he was raised by the Night's Watch and was one of their best.  He was injured and his cloak was mended by the woman who tended to his hurts, mended with scarlet silk from Asshai.  When he returned to the Watch he was ordered to give up the cloak and refused.  Thus he began a life as a Wilding, the bane of the Night's Watch, and started on the road to becoming King Beyond the Wall.
 
I know there are those out there who think Mance is actually Rhaegar.  I say they are wrong.  But I can see where the idea comes from.  The red and black cloak for one thing, the musical ability, the fighting prowess and leadership ability.  Mance can be very Targ-like at times.  The education he has isn't an issue because Aemon was there to teach him if he wanted to learn.  Mance doesn't really quite fit in with the Wildings, but he never quite fit in with the Night's Watch either.  I propose a new possibility...
 
Mance Rayder is the son or grandson (great-grandson, etc) of Brynden Rivers Targaryen aka Bloodraven.  
 
Bloodraven was not only a member of the Night's Watch, he was Lord Commander for a time.  No one knows for certain when he disappeared, but he went up there with his nephew Aemon.  He's been missing a long time, certainly long enough to father a child before branching out into greenseer territory.  
 
What evidence do I have other than Bloodraven being up there at the right time, and Mance's Targ-like tendencies?  I have an entire one textual hint.  Mance's cloak is described in these terms "smoke and scarlet."  Or maybe it's "scarlet and smoke."  In The Mystery Knight Bloodraven's cloak is described as "smoke and scarlet" or "scarlet and smoke."  I don't have the books in my hands right now or I'd check to see which way it goes.
 
No other evidence.  This is pure gut-feeling territory.  It is, however, far more textually supported than my "Mance is Rhaegar's Twin" idea, which is so far out there I don't even bother to call it a theory.
 
By the way, I don't think Mance would be even vaguely aware of his having Targ blood.  The only way he would know is if Dalla or Aemon told him.  I don't know enough about Dalla to know if she could tell something like that, or would tell him if she did figure it out.  Aemon could certainly have put the pieces together, but whether he would have told Mance is hard to say.
 
Please share your thoughts.  If I'm completely mixed up on this, I do want to know.  And if I'm not, well hey, I may be on to something.


Could work

#17 Dany Girl

Dany Girl

    Baddest Queen in Town

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,742 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 03:06 AM

 
Except that Mance is mentioned by name in Bran Chapter I of aGoT. He is a hugely important character that too many people dismiss as "just some wildling" with a mission to cause havoc. Who's suggesting crackpot theories now?
 
How can you assume he doesn't know "the truth" there's plenty of text that backs up that Mance know's Jon on sight, recognises him, also why does he go back to WF, there is an agenda we just can't be sure what it is yet. I also disagree the point of the Mance = Targ theories are that logically there has to be a connection somewhere to the 17 missing years since the events at Harrenhall, & however trite or too obvious you might want to call it, more people are going to be found as "not dead" before the end of the series.


Someone's getting awfully upset because I don't agree with some crackpot. Simmer down. I said it's a possibility, but quite a stretch.

So what if he's mentioned in Bran's first chapter? He IS important, because he's King Beyond the Wall, the fist King to unite all the Wildings in one cohesive effort. What is that effort? To take down the Wall, destroy the NW, and generally cause havoc!

Mance recognized Jon when he meets him because he SAW him before. Their meeting at the camp is not the first time he's seen Jon. He was at the Feast for Robert at WF, he's a cunning dude, he payed attention to the important people to his future plans (getting past the Wall) gjodr people being the Starks, including the Bastard Stark.

There is no proof that Mance of all people, a man who lived North of the Wall for many years, a former Crow, would have any knowledge of Jon's parentage. Ned guarded that secret better than Fort Knox.

And what I said wouldn't matter was the OP's idea that Mance is a secret Targ but doesn't know it. Him being a Targ would only matter if he in fact knew it and was making moves accordingly. Otherwise, another random Targ serves no narrative purpose.

#18 butterbumps!

butterbumps!

    i will make them love me

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,729 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 03:19 AM

What evidence do I have other than Bloodraven being up there at the right time, and Mance's Targ-like tendencies?  I have an entire one textual hint.  Mance's cloak is described in these terms "smoke and scarlet."  Or maybe it's "scarlet and smoke."  In The Mystery Knight Bloodraven's cloak is described as "smoke and scarlet" or "scarlet and smoke."  I don't have the books in my hands right now or I'd check to see which way it goes.

I'll give you an even more explicit one: Mance's helm has raven wings.  

 

I actually do think there might be a Bloodraven-Mance connection, but it doesn't have to be literally based on kinship.  I mean, Jon and Sam are connected and work together, but they aren't blood-relations.    I think maybe a more lucrative argument might be exploring if and how they could be working together in some way (could Mance be an agent/ disciple of his?) rather than establishing Mance as a hidden Targ.



#19 Lady Woodland

Lady Woodland

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 527 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 03:41 AM

Someone's getting awfully upset because I don't agree with some crackpot. Simmer down. I said it's a possibility, but quite a stretch.

So what if he's mentioned in Bran's first chapter? He IS important, because he's King Beyond the Wall, the fist King to unite all the Wildings in one cohesive effort. What is that effort? To take down the Wall, destroy the NW, and generally cause havoc!

Mance recognized Jon when he meets him because he SAW him before. Their meeting at the camp is not the first time he's seen Jon. He was at the Feast for Robert at WF, he's a cunning dude, he payed attention to the important people to his future plans (getting past the Wall) gjodr people being the Starks, including the Bastard Stark.

There is no proof that Mance of all people, a man who lived North of the Wall for many years, a former Crow, would have any knowledge of Jon's parentage. Ned guarded that secret better than Fort Knox.

And what I said wouldn't matter was the OP's idea that Mance is a secret Targ but doesn't know it. Him being a Targ would only matter if he in fact knew it and was making moves accordingly. Otherwise, another random Targ serves no narrative purpose.

 

If I appear snippy it's because I disagree with Ran's post which you referred to, & it does piss me off that that particular post keeps being repeated by folks such as yourself because the last time you posted the same comment in another thread & I objected to it, my post disappeared, as I predicted it would, we are being censored in what we are allowed to post.



#20 Lady Arya's Song

Lady Arya's Song

    Hedge Knight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 329 posts

Posted 04 June 2014 - 06:14 AM

Interesting theory regarding Mance and Blood Raven connection.  I think it could be true.  I am always struck by the fact that the LC raven could be speaking of himself..not Jon or Jeor Mormont when he preens, struts and croaks king. This happens several times and I have often wondered if Blood Raven isn't in fact the LC still and also the king beyond the Wall by influencing everyone.

 

Another small question that I wonder over in regard to Mance and the NW men with Qhorin Halfhand.

 

Squire Dalbridge was a squire to a king in his youth. What king? Why was he sent to the Wall? The Shadow Tower men who went with Jon are interesting.