Is there still a king in the north?

[Disputatious]

Agreed, unless he dies and is resurected which may be a technical way out. Otherwise, he is stuck.

According to our author, a very few members of the NW over the years have been relieved of their oaths. By what process and on what grounds GRRM did not say according to the SSM. It would be amusing if the primary requirement is a decree of the Lord Commander, that Jon can release himself from his oaths. I suspect that he needs the consent of the other officers, which means at present Ser Denys---who, given his attitude, would agree at once. (Marsh is a mutineer, and thus no longer an officer.)

That SSM should correct the error with which a number of misinformed members have polluted this thread. Jon will not become King in the North, of course, but King of Westeros.

[Wmarshal]

That SSM stated men in orders like the watch in general have been gotten out, not the watch itself. There has yet to be said precedent of men of the watch being let go.

[Arya Targaryen]

That SSM stated men in orders like the watch in general have been gotten out, not the watch itself. There has yet to be said precedent of men of the watch being let go.

Yeah, but if "orders like the Watch" could do it, the Watch can do it too. I read the SSM BTW, and yeah it says something like that, however, it may or may not include the Watch itself in the precedents. It is not really clear, so it is wrong to assume that it has never happened in the Watch. It might.

However, whatever the Watch and its members think of it, is not that important. What really counts, it what the realm will think of a NW member being released. If a Great Northern Council of Northern Lords decide that Jon must be released, because he has to be King or whatever, that means Jon can safely leave the Watch, because nobody will take his head for it. The Watch may not be that happy about it, but they may take a deal, like a 100 men instead, and leave Jon alone. It all comes down to the Great Political Necessity, which would excuse any unusual solutions to the matter. Even solutions without precedents.

[Mikkel]

One thing is what "the realm" will think, or the North, or the Watch. What about Jon? Could you honestly see him leaving the Watch willingly, without feeling he was dishonoring himself?

I can't. Not unless his near-or-actual-death-then-resurrection-by-fire-or-warging-or-ice-wighting-undead thing changes him, which granted it very well might.

edit: and I'm talking about leaving it permanently, not kinda-sorta-temporarily-leaving on an expedition to "save Arya" or "defend the Watch".

[Attitude]

I can see Jon being declared legit by Robb and called his heir. That only leaves the fact that Jon is still LC of the NW.

[Arya Targaryen]

One thing is what "the realm" will think, or the North, or the Watch. What about Jon? Could you honestly see him leaving the Watch willingly, without feeling he was dishonoring himself?

I can't. Not unless his near-or-actual-death-then-resurrection-by-fire-or-warging-or-ice-wighting-undead thing changes him, which granted it very well might.

edit: and I'm talking about leaving it permanently, not kinda-sorta-temporarily-leaving on an expedition to "save Arya" or "defend the Watch".

Jon will do whatever it takes to gather enough support to fight the Others. Right now. his own Watch-brothers tried to assassinate him, which probably will lead to a bloodshed, which means less men to defend the Wall.

I honestly don't know how it will play out. Several things can happen until he regains consciousness, including a serious WW attack that may result in the fall of the Wall. If Jon feels betrayed by the Watch, realises he is short of men, and somehow learns about Robbs will along with the willingness of Northern Lords to crown him, he will go for it. By the end of ADWD, I think he couldn't care less about his vows. He is determined to do whatever is right, whatever is needed to defend the realm. If accepting a crown (coming from Robb!) will help him accomplish that, he will do that (and continue to feel miserable because he has broken his vows).

And please don't say he has already refused Winterfell. He did that under different circumstances. At the end of ASOS, he wasn't betrayed by the Watch (only had a few assholes hating on him), he hasn't faced with the difficulties of manning the Wall, dealing with kings and Boltons and stuff, and WF came from Stannis, not Robb, which would have meant burning the ww tree. He clearly refused that.

Accepting the crown (or just Winterfell and leadership in the North) NOW would provide him things he needs the most: defeated Boltons, more men (which means more able officers as well), and a HQ (Winterfell) which is very much needed as a second line of defense, should the Wall fall.

[Attitude]

By the end of ADWD, I think he couldn't care less about his vows. He is determined to do whatever is right, whatever is needed to defend the realm.

:agree:

He did what in his mind was the best option to fight of the WW. That his brothers didn't receive that to well, well I can understand that. He has now put defeating the WW as his no. 1 priority.

[Julia H.]

One thing is what "the realm" will think, or the North, or the Watch. What about Jon? Could you honestly see him leaving the Watch willingly, without feeling he was dishonoring himself?

I can't. Not unless his near-or-actual-death-then-resurrection-by-fire-or-warging-or-ice-wighting-undead thing changes him, which granted it very well might.

edit: and I'm talking about leaving it permanently, not kinda-sorta-temporarily-leaving on an expedition to "save Arya" or "defend the Watch".

Yes, it is another question what Jon would think. He has already refused an opportunity to take a wife, hold lands and father children. He has apparently given up all vain dreams of winning personal glory. It would only be fitting if he had the opportunity to make a choice regarding “wearing crowns”.

I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor.

I agree with Arya Targaryen that ultimately he will do whatever is needed to protect the realms of men. We have seen him make unorthodox choices and I think the most important part of the vow for him is what he has identified as his life-purpose - to be the shield that guards the realms of men. If he can best do that as Lord Commander, he will remain a Lord Commander. If there is a better opportunity, he will take it and sacrifice his honour if necessary. (I don't think he will have the easy way out provided by a near or actual death experience as the expiry date of his vows.)

It would be a different situation if he thought taking the opportunity that Robb's will gave him was a selfish act or if it meant robbing his brothers of their birthright. We know his opinion about such a choice.

Jon has been tempted by desertion several times in the story and he has also had to pretend to be a deserter and a turncloak. He has had to weigh the worth of his vow and his honor against other values several times. My guess is that Robb's will has set him up for another difficult decision in this respect, where the stakes will be even higher than before.

It won't be the same situation as when he refused Winterfell in ASOS. That was an opportunity Stannis offered to him for a price he was not willing to pay - most notably he would have had to burn the weirwood and sacrifice his father's gods (the heart of Winterfell) for his father's castle. Being chosen by Robb and by the North is something completely different.

Having said all that, I can absolutely imagine that instead of being formally choosen / crowned as King-in-the-North, Jon will be a sort of “King of Winter” (not my idea but I like it), who effectively rules the North / the realm during the Long Night and leads the defence against the enemy, perfectly in accordance with his vows.

[RedShirt47]

Well I'm pretty sure Robb named Jon his heir so technically by Robb's word and since yes the Lords of the North did recognize Robb as their King than Jon is King In the North.

But since his rightful heir(Bran)is alive and Jon is a man of the NW than Bran is the rightful King in the North.

The lawyers can fight over it in court.

Really it comes down to who the lords decide they want to be their king. If the lords decide that they want Jon and Jon decides to agree to it then Jon is King.

[Mikkel]

Fair enough on the "will do whatever it takes to defend the realm". I agree with that. I just don't see becoming King as part of that, is all.

Most of the time the talk of getting Jon out of the Night's Watch is so he can become King on the Iron Throne forever after etc ad nauseum. I cannot see a situation where the choice for Jon is either he becomes King in the North, or the White Walkers win. He's already Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and I see it as far more likely that he can drum up support in the North from that position, as an honorable bastard of Ned Stark, than trying to usurp Winterfell (as some will see it).

But I may well be proven wrong, which is fine. I just don't see Jon abandoning the Watch, because I don't see how that could in any way help the realm, compared to him leading it (the Watch). Though I suppose I may have answered my own question: If being Lord Commander proves to be too little to get the manpower needed to defend against the coming of the White Walkers, going for Kingship may be the only course left to him.

Summa summarum: Point taken.

[Julia H.]

Mikkel...

I think we are basically in agreement about this. I have difficulty seeing Jon sitting on a throne with a crown on his head surrounded by all the trappings of power he despises so much. But I can see him making important, large-scale decisions that change the fate of the realm and taking full responsibility for them. For him, power means responsibility in the first place.

Perhaps this contradiction would be solved for me if he took over a realm that is in a state similar to the state of the NW (which is not impossible): My seat, Jon Snow reflected. My hall, my home, my command. A ruin.

I even find it possible that, when everything is over, he will tell Rickon, “You are Robb's rightful heir, only Robb didn't know you were alive. I was born a Snow and I'm fine with that.” The discovery of his true parentage could be another emotional and ethical factor in his decision. There are a lot of possibilities here, which can play out in many ways, and that is why it is an exciting situation.

[RainGhost]

RainGhost...

It is Jon if Robb's will legitimizes him and names him as his heir.

Nope. Jon's a man of the NW and cannot wear a crown unless he finds a way out of his vows. As long as he stays in the NW, he doesn't figure, he can't inherit and isn't heir to anything. It's Bran who's complicating matters because we all know that he's the rightful KitN but it doesn't look atm like he's going to be returning to WF. Manderly's sent Davos to fetch Rickon, so if Rickon returns to WF, he'll be KitN (or merely Lord of Winterfell if he bends the knee to Stannis).

That's the situation as it stands atm, so I suppose technically that makes Bran KitN for now. We can speculate on whether Jon will find a way out of his vows but he's one of my favourite characters and I can't see him renouncing his vows to usurp his brothers - he's too noble and honourable for that. However, Rickon will need a regent. The NW and the northern lords will have the same aim soon, so being LC of the NW and regent of WF would work fine in the short term I think. And if Benjen returns, they can split duties.

[King Arya Is Coming]

GRRM has already set up an "out" for Jon. He was attacked and is most likely unconscious. There's lots of ways to maneuver Jon out of the NW after this. Some of them have already been discussed such as the "watch is ended" vow. I'll add that it's probably chaos right now at the wall, and Jon could be whisked away by allies/friends. In such a scenario he'd be out of commission for a while and when he wakes, the decision will already be made. He'll agree to it because he'll see it as the best way to save his family and the realm.

He was already willing to break his vows before being attacked. I don't see why he wouldn't continue that path when he wakes.

[Julia H.]

RainGhost...

OK, so Robb's will made it into the novel by some mistake. It will never have any significance and you obviously know it.

As for Jon being too noble and honourable or usurping... My opinion about this is just a few posts above, so I won't repeat it.

However, if Jon strictly keeps to his vows and the rules of the NW (which he always does, doesn't he?), he won't be a regent either. A black brother has no family and takes no part in the internal affairs of the realm. Besides, a Lord Commander must be more or less permanently in Castle Black, while a regent would need to be in Winterfell most of the time.

I'm not pretending that I know what will happen, and I do like speculating about different possible outcomes. Your assessment of the current situation could be true even if Robb had never written a will - but I can't imagine that GRRM put it in the novel just to immediately forget about it. I think it is there precisely to create a legal - political situation that is more complicated than the one you describe. Its other purpose may well be to create another dilemma for Jon, and if it happens, I don't think it'll be an easy one.

[Wmarshal]

Yeah, but if "orders like the Watch" could do it, the Watch can do it too. I read the SSM BTW, and yeah it says something like that, however, it may or may not include the Watch itself in the precedents. It is not really clear, so it is wrong to assume that it has never happened in the Watch. It might.

However, whatever the Watch and its members think of it, is not that important. What really counts, it what the realm will think of a NW member being released. If a Great Northern Council of Northern Lords decide that Jon must be released, because he has to be King or whatever, that means Jon can safely leave the Watch, because nobody will take his head for it. The Watch may not be that happy about it, but they may take a deal, like a 100 men instead, and leave Jon alone. It all comes down to the Great Political Necessity, which would excuse any unusual solutions to the matter. Even solutions without precedents.

I said there is yet to be said precedent of the NW. Two for one bullet, it wrong to assume there has been precedent.

Maesters, septon, and septas usually have many southerners in them, those the HS cam release them. Jon swore his oath by the old gods. Kingsguard follow directly under the king so he has power over them. NW is a neutral order.

The NW can, the North has no power over them. Also anyone can challenge Jon's claim, for he has none.

[The Marquis de Leech]

. (Marsh is a mutineer, and thus no longer an officer.)

Uncertain. What on earth are Nights Watchmen supposed to do about a Lord Commander who is openly breaking the rules?

[Julia H.]

Curiosity: Just how many "orders like the Watch" are there in Westeros?

I said there is yet to be said precedent of the NW. Two for one bullet, it wrong to assume there has been precedent.

Maesters, septon, and septas usually have many southerners in them, those the HS cam release them. Jon swore his oath by the old gods. Kingsguard follow directly under the king so he has power over them. NW is a neutral order.

The NW can, the North has no power over them. Also anyone can challenge Jon's claim, for he has none.

Do you mean black brothers who said their vows in a sept could be released by a septon?

I think the vow sworn by the old gods pertains to the man's conscience, not the law. Being released by law or a decree or an agreement is a question of human law. Forswearing a vow is a question of conscience independent of legal considerations. One can feel obliged by the vow even if the law permits them to change their mind, while others may only be concerned with the legal aspects of the situation and not the religious ones.

Any claim can be challenged. A will is a basis for a claim. Of course, Jon doesn't even know of the will, so I think its real importance is the effect it may have on the northmen. It is not likely that Jon would put forward a claim on the basis of Robb's will. But it may give him a claim in the eyes of the northmen - and what if they decide that Robb was right when he made his choice of heir?

Jon's words to Stannis: "I am Lord Commander because my brothers chose me." To me, that is the essence of any title and, most of all, responsibility that Jon might take.

As for the idea of usurping - for some reason, GRRM takes great care that Jon does not know his younger brothers are alive. Sam could easily have told him that Bran was alive, but he had given his word to Bran and Coldhands, so he kept the secret. I'm pretty sure Jon would have been able to keep this secret just as well, yet, apparently, the author does not want him to know about it. Lord Manderly knows that Rickon is alive; but he isn't exactly spreading the word. He is in the middle of a war and he may die if Martin wants him to. Davos will surely bring Rickon back one day - the question is how long it will take and what else will happen in the meantime.

That Jon does not know his brothers are alive is an important factor in his story. It makes him the last Stark (even though he is a Snow) and it forces him to accept his Stark identity because he is the last living son to uphold the morality of Winterfell and to fill a power vacuum in the North (which neither of his younger brothers would be ready to do at the moment even if they were suddenly brought back to Winterfell). I don't think Jon would break his vows for a crown, but he would certainly go wherever the realm needs him, and I don't think even the vow would keep him from doing "what must be done", whatever it is.

[sj4iy]

Well, as long as that will is floating around, I think there's still a King in the North who simply doesn't know it, and his name is Stark :)

[Wmarshal]

Curiosity: Just how many "orders like the Watch" are there in Westeros?

Do you mean black brothers who said their vows in a sept could be released by a septon?

I think the vow sworn by the old gods pertains to the man's conscience, not the law. Being released by law or a decree or an agreement is a question of human law. Forswearing a vow is a question of conscience independent of legal considerations. One can feel obliged by the vow even if the law permits them to change their mind, while others may only be concerned with the legal aspects of the situation and not the religious ones.

Any claim can be challenged. A will is a basis for a claim. Of course, Jon doesn't even know of the will, so I think its real importance is the effect it may have on the northmen. It is not likely that Jon would put forward a claim on the basis of Robb's will. But it may give him a claim in the eyes of the northmen - and what if they decide that Robb was right when he made his choice of heir?

Jon's words to Stannis: "I am Lord Commander because my brothers chose me." To me, that is the essence of any title and, most of all, responsibility that Jon might take.

As for the idea of usurping - for some reason, GRRM takes great care that Jon does not know his younger brothers are alive. Sam could easily have told him that Bran was alive, but he had given his word to Bran and Coldhands, so he kept the secret. I'm pretty sure Jon would have been able to keep this secret just as well, yet, apparently, the author does not want him to know about it. Lord Manderly knows that Rickon is alive; but he isn't exactly spreading the word. He is in the middle of a war and he may die if Martin wants him to. Davos will surely bring Rickon back one day - the question is how long it will take and what else will happen in the meantime.

That Jon does not know his brothers are alive is an important factor in his story. It makes him the last Stark (even though he is a Snow) and it forces him to accept his Stark identity because he is the last living son to uphold the morality of Winterfell and to fill a power vacuum in the North (which neither of his younger brothers would be ready to do at the moment even if they were suddenly brought back to Winterfell). I don't think Jon would break his vows for a crown, but he would certainly go wherever the realm needs him, and I don't think even the vow would keep him from doing "what must be done", whatever it is.

No, HS.

It pertains to his gods and all those that follow or respect those gods see it as a true vow and law. That is why when a Northerners try to run they still find the chop block. And by human law no king nor man can release them.

The northmen know the true heir of the north leaves(well Glover and Manderly) and soon will the rest. Jon is still a NW.

But anyone that matters know they are alive. Because he is in deep enemy land. Glover as well as Manderly's close allies know Rickon lives.

Which he can't, by the laws of Westeros and the Wall he is no free man and about any lord can take his head if he tries to leave.

[Robb_Warged]

Robb Warged. Grey Wind escaped. Do the math