so...where do female white walkers come from

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You're confusing Others and wights/dead wildlings.

[Stormland's Fury]

Well, when mommy and daddy Others love each other very much...

Dammit. Came here to say the same thing.

[Nemesis21]

You're confusing Others and wights/dead wildlings.

Am I? Where is it stated that there is anything but Others in the chapter(aside from Royce)?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Am I? Where is it stated that there is anything but Others in the chapter(aside from Royce)?

Read the description. Dead human (in this case wildlings) animated by magic, bright blue eyes: Wight. Inhuman ice-being, bright blue eyes: Other.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I don't believe Craster's libido is the only thing sustaining the Others' population. OK, so he made a deal for boys only, Craster being Craster and all. But maybe there are numerous other contenders for a "parent of the year, north of the Wall" award, who made similar, but not Y-chromosome-exclusive deals. Or maybe there are not, but the white walkers simply steal newborns of both sexes by force.

Or who knows, maybe the Others fuck (and get pregnant, and give birth), and Otherizing Craster's sons amounts to only a small fracture of their population growth rate.

[RoamingRonin]

As personifications of death, they are incapable of making life. I think the show revealed to us how they "reproduce".

[Fool of a Book]

I think Val and Dalla are descendants of the Night's King and his Other wife, and that's why they're considered Princesses/Queens.

As for the mechanics, pretty much stated in the second post and after.

Maybe they can breed only girls (matriarchal Other women with human man) and the boys need to be transformed (by a previously transformed Other man).

Obviously female Others exist (see the Other wife). And we know semi-canon men can be converted to Others. No evidence of a girl needing to be transformed.

When you think about it, if Others could breed with each other, they should have the same pattern of demographics... they do not. If they could breed with each other, Craster wouldn't have to offer his sons for conversion.

Gives great motivation for the Other invasion.

[Fool of a Book]

There are certainly no female Others. Imagine the bickering of them: "You have done nothing in the last few thousand years. No invasion of Westeros. No killing of crows. How do you think you can support a family while all you do is moaning about your defeat?"

If there were female Others the gap between the invasions wouldn't have lasted 8000 years.

There is most famously a female Other. But I think, very rare.

Seems like female Others can breed with humans for female offspring, and male Others can transform human male children. Seems they can't breed together for some reason.

The reason I think male humans can breed with Other women is the phrase from the Night's King tale that he gave her his seed. I think that means more than simply shtupping.

Also kinda obvious Val and Dalla are considered "Queens." Of the Dead Valdalla Valhalla. Could GRRM make it any more obvious?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Seems like female Others can breed with humans for female offspring, and male Others can transform human male children. Seems they can't breed together for some reason.

Maybe they all are "dead" inside or "infertile". But a man's "seed" is full with life, and the female Other would only carry the human child.

[Fool of a Book]

Maybe they all are "dead" inside or "infertile". But a man's "seed" is full with life, and the female Other would only carry the human child.

Makes sense! Good analysis.

[Fool of a Book]

Parthenogenesis.

And, if needed, they can change their genders.

That is the true.

Seconding. Which makes them more like dragons (lizards) than ever suspected.

[Brewmaster]

yeah.... i'm not talking about the show though i'm talking about the books. the night king was known to love a female white walker. that love pissed alot of humans off, north and south of the wall, and had the king of winter and the king beyond the wall to unite against it

Except it isn't "known". Now, there has been truth in many of the old stories we've heard, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are 100% accurate. So, perhaps the Night King loved a female WW...perhaps that part is just legend.

[Fool of a Book]

Except it isn't "known". Now, there has been truth in many of the old stories we've heard, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are 100% accurate. So, perhaps the Night King loved a female WW...perhaps that part is just legend.

I dunno. I think Nan and the Reeds have been pretty right-on. And the whole part about "when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well" seems pretty obvious.

It's not one of those tricky prophecies, it's an oral legend, known by one of the oldest Northern characters GRRM created. Or is Old Nan just a shill and a kindergarten storyteller?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think Val and Dalla are descendants of the Night's King and his Other wife, and that's why they're considered Princesses/Queens.

As for the mechanics, pretty much stated in the second post and after.

Maybe they can breed only girls (matriarchal Other women with human man) and the boys need to be transformed (by a previously transformed Other man).

Obviously female Others exist (see the Other wife). And we know semi-canon men can be converted to Others. No evidence of a girl needing to be transformed.

When you think about it, if Others could breed with each other, they should have the same pattern of demographics... they do not. If they could breed with each other, Craster wouldn't have to offer his sons for conversion.

Gives great motivation for the Other invasion.

I agree. I've been talking about Val being descended from them for a while now.

I still don't think Otherizing humans actually turns them into Others though.

Craster's sons being converted doesn't have to be something the main Other population is even aware of. A band of rogue others in the service of

Night's King

could be doing that. That would explain no attacks for so long. It's taken 8,000 years to build an army in exile.

[Fool of a Book]

I agree. I've been talking about Val being descended from them for a while now.

I still don't think Otherizing humans actually turns them into Others though.

Craster's sons being converted doesn't have to be something the main Other population is even aware of. A band of rogue others in the service of

Night's King

could be doing that. That would explain no attacks for so long. It's taken 8,000 years to build an army in exile.

Craster's daughters do talk about the boys being taken by their brothers.

And I'm glad you agree about Val.

But I don't see how secret dissent by a small population of Others, kept from the main population, serves the story.

We only know two things in the most SEMI of canons... that a female Other had offspring from a human male, and that male Others can convert human males.

The rest is unknown.

"No attacks for so long" could be explained many ways, all of which are speculation.

PS we don't know how many Others there are, but we do know they can control seemingly unlimited wights, their current "army."

[The Evil Queen]

How do we know Nights Kings wife was an Other and not just a Wight he decided to use :ack:

If the show is right and Others are created (and I like the idea of possession by a noncorporeal being proposed up thread), then they wouldn't need women because they don't need to procreate, they just create.

That said, there easily could be other Crasters out there sacrificing baby girls, at least occasionally.

[Fool of a Book]

How do we know Nights Kings wife was an Other and not just a Wight he decided to use :ack:

If the show is right and Others are created (and I like the idea of possession by a noncorporeal being proposed up thread), then they wouldn't need women because they don't need to procreate, they just create.

That said, there easily could be other Crasters out there sacrificing baby girls, at least occasionally.

GRRM wrote this in the story, not me.

The night's king fell in love with a woman "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars and her skin was cold as ice." Sorry, paraphrasing, but this is from an SoS Bran chapter.recalling Nan's stories.

Again, GRRM chose the parallels between the woman and the Others, not me. Pretty sure he is telling us she is an Other. What else could it mean?

Seems likely male Others can be created by touch-conversion (if show is proven to be canon), but why would GRRM give us this whole story about a human male and an Other female if it weren't important? And also imply that the Night's King was a Stark?

And none of Craster's daughter/wives recall a female child being sacrificed. He isn't Methuselah as far as I can tell, he is just an oldish man. No reason the eldest of his wives would not recall a time that daughters were left in the cold.

What would it serve the story to suddenly introduce another human incest camp in the North sacrificing females? Would also make no sense. One man and 50 women can be prolific. The opposite is limited.

They obviously need human women... to birth the men they transform to Others.

The possession part is of the wights. Men and women and children, to control them like a hive mind... they are not alive.

ETA Something had to change for the Others to turn to Craster for his sons. And Craster had to understand and agree. Unless this has been an ongoing arrangement for thousands of years?

So what could have happened in Craster's generation for the Others to enlist him as a source of populating their ranks?

And more importantly, what could have happened just previous to the GoT prologue for the Others to reappear and be so merciless to humans?

I think this is all connected to the question the OP posed, though I'm struggling with the answers.

[Fool of a Book]

Maybe the nights king was just a misinterpretation? The wiman could of been a wildling woman who simply offered her son to the walkers. Then again they could have died out, would explain the lack of white walkers for centuaries, though i admit thats kind of far fetched...

Again, the author has already given us all the description necessary to presume that the Night's King fell in love with an Other, and gave her his seed.

[The Evil Queen]

And none of Craster's daughter/wives recall a female child being sacrificed. He isn't Methuselah as far as I can tell, he is just an oldish man. No reason the eldest of his wives would not recall a time that daughters were left in the cold.

No I didn't mean Craster, I meant another group or groups of people out there like Craster, sacrificing their babies to protect themselves. Yes it wouldn't work the same way if all female babies were sacrificed, but one female every few years is possible in another group like Crasters, even if Craster didn't do it himself.

As for the Nights Queen, I was only half serious with my suggestion about her being a Wight. But still, skin cold as ice and bright blue eyes would also apply to being a Wight. But yes I admit unlikely (and ewwww).

[Fool of a Book]

No I didn't mean Craster, I meant another group or groups of people out there like Craster, sacrificing their babies to protect themselves. Yes it wouldn't work the same way if all female babies were sacrificed, but one female every few years is possible in another group like Crasters, even if Craster didn't do it himself.

As for the Nights Queen, I was only half serious with my suggestion about her being a Wight. But still, skin cold as ice and bright blue eyes would also apply to being a Wight. But yes I admit unlikely (and ewwww).

Perhaps another family as connected to the North.... like the Starks perhaps? There must always be a Stark in Winterfell... maybe a female one.

I'm in crackpot territory, but it's not like many female Starks are known except the current generations.