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Dany and Colonialism


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#1 Jalabhar's Ho

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 08:26 PM

            So I didnt relly like how negative my other post went. I didn’t know so many peopel hated all the good Dany is doing in slavers bane. Alot of you didn’t like the colonialist take on Dany. The route of this is probably modern’s society’s influence.

 

            In today mega-sensitive liberal apologist world, no one admits that colonialism was agood thing. Think about the Americas. Because of colonialism America was able to propser far beyond the rest of world besides like Britain and they kept up because gues what? They were also imperalists. They managed to civilize major parts of the world, just as American was able to grow out of the stone age that the Indians had.

            Its kind of sad that so many of them had to die in the name of progress, but I think you can all agree it was worth it. I mean, if America wasn’t colonized we may have never evolved like we did. Gorge RR martin is from New Jersey which means he may not have even existed if the pilgrims didn’t come. We woudn’t be discussing these books on here. We may not even have internet at all.

 

            So i think we should definitely see Daenerys’ march towards Westeros as a good sign. While they fight and squabble over the throne and degenerate into the savages in Essos, Dany is marching there to put the world back to order. I don’t think Westeros or the whole world of ice and fire can survive if Dany doesn’t colonize it. 



#2 Heliodromus

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:00 PM

Daenerys isn't a colonialist, though her story has more than a passing resemblance on the surface.

 

Regardless, the position of colonialism as a net positive force is both laughable and contemptable. Fundamentally, colonialism means either mass immigration or the mass extraction of resources for the homeland's use, neither of which bode well for the native inhabitants of the land. In the context of colonialism, civilizing sounds a lot like enslaving someone and then crippling them so that successful resistance becomes impossible.



#3 TheMysteriousOne

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:06 PM

I agree with the above post, Daenerys Targaryen is not a colonialist... 



#4 SerArthurHeath

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:10 PM

Really depends how you colonise, it's been done many ways by many different empires. It's indisputable that some inherent good but also a lot of inherent bad comes from colonisation (affecting different countries to varying degrees) but I agree that Dany isn't colonising anywhere, she has made no attempt to colonise any city she has conquered except Meereen and that is more an invasion and conquest alla Norman the Conqueror (or Aegon)

#5 TallTyrionLannister

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:49 PM

No one appreciates you bringing your racist "White Man's Burden" justification for the worst atrocities committed in the 19th and early 20th centuries onto these forums. 

 

Dany ended Slavery in a part of the world where the practice was extremely brutal, she didn't force her way of life on a peaceful people in the name of conquering and stealing their resources. 



#6 The Bittersteel

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:50 PM

There's a poor understanding of the term colonialist in this OP. Daenerys isn't really one as far as I can see by the way. 

 

Try to distance yourself from thinking of colonialism in 'good' and 'bad' terms, it'll only distort your view of events. It's a fairly broad term that describes political systems of rule, usually at a long distance, where one party claims exclusive sovereignty of another (usually through right of conquest). It can be beneficial and detrimental both to the core colonialist and the peripheral subjugated people.

 

Using colonialism and colonization interchangeably is a mistake because they don't mean the same thing.

 

Colonization refers to large scale population movements where the colonizers maintain strong links with their former country. Gaining significant benefits over other inhabitants of the newly acquired territory from these links. 


Edited by The Bittersteel, 06 June 2014 - 09:51 PM.


#7 Melisandros Megas

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 02:37 AM

Calling Dany a colonialist mostly has it's grounds in some scenes on the tv show and focusing to much on skin colour. If there is any parallel to her from the colonial era, she would be Pocahontas.

#8 Rodrik Stone

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 02:43 AM

Dany's constant references to her "floppy ears" throughout ADWD are evidence enough that she is not a colonizer - colonialism tends to bring the colonizing power's culture with it, but Dany actively tries to acquiesce to Ghiscari culture throughout her incredibly boring rule.



#9 averde

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:13 AM

I assume, and hope, this is a troll thread.

Colonialism is responsible for some of the worst atrocities ever commited by mankind and has far reaching negative consequences that effect the world to this day. On top of that Daenerys isn't colonizing anything, so unless you brought this up simply to anger people I don't understand your point.

Edited by averde, 07 June 2014 - 03:15 AM.


#10 Lointain

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 07:19 AM

Maybe Daenerys isn't trying to colonize anything in Essos, but her role there ressembles, in some ways, the poem, that was instrumental to justify the european and north-americna colonialism at the eyes of the colonialists, "The White Man's Burden".



#11 The Dragon King

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 07:58 AM

No one appreciates you bringing your racist "White Man's Burden" justification for the worst atrocities committed in the 19th and early 20th centuries onto these forums. 

 

Dany ended Slavery in a part of the world where the practice was extremely brutal, she didn't force her way of life on a peaceful people in the name of conquering and stealing their resources. 

 

No one appreciates you bringing your PC nonsense to this forum.  See, I can play that game too. 

 

As for "peaceful peoples", where are you getting that from?  Native Americans have been warring with each other since the whole thing began, killing men and enslaving women, and taking the conquered tribes' land.  "Colonialism" is a nonsense term to describe Europeans doing the same thing but on a grander scale.  As for the effect on the conquered peoples, it depends, some have been relatively peaceful and others have been quite nasty. 


Edited by The Dragon King, 07 June 2014 - 08:35 AM.


#12 TallTyrionLannister

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:22 AM

 

No one appreciates you bringing your PC nonsense to this forum.  See, I can play that game too. 

 

As for "peaceful peoples", where are you getting that from?  Native Americans have been warring with each other since the whole thing began, killing men and enslaving women, and taking the conquered tribes' land.  "Colonialism" is a nonsense term to describe Europeans doing the same thing but on a grander scale.  As for the effect on the conquered peoples, it depends, some have been relatively peaceful and others have been quite nasty. 

 

Aside from the fact that this is absolutely categorically false (some natives were war-like, but painting a picture of most natives being brutal slave-keeping conquerors is false. Also colonialism was an exploitative imperialist sociopolitical system that always ended in the countries it was imposed upon being worse off after the fact. Source: anthropologist for 15 years), this is horribly off topic and does not pertain to ASOIAF.

 

Not like it matters, I'm sure this thread is ripe for deletion..  



#13 The Titan's Legitimate Son

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:59 AM

   In today mega-sensitive liberal apologist world, no one admits that colonialism was a good thing. Think about the Americas. Because of colonialism America was able to propser far beyond the rest of world besides like Britain and they kept up because gues what? They were also imperalists. They managed to civilize major parts of the world, just as American was able to grow out of the stone age that the Indians had.

            Its kind of sad that so many of them had to die in the name of progress, but I think you can all agree it was worth it. I mean, if America wasn’t colonized we may have never evolved like we did. Gorge RR martin is from New Jersey which means he may not have even existed if the pilgrims didn’t come. We woudn’t be discussing these books on here. We may not even have internet at all.

 

I don't think you can whitewash Colonialism as a singularly good or bad thing. Some benefitted, mostly the colonisers from material goods, many others suffered. There's a reason that people are "apologist" over the British Empire - because of atrocities like Kenya and the Boer War's concentration camps. 

 

The "civilising" effect of empires can also be debated, due to the brutal treatment of the native peoples are their subjugation. Also, much of Africa cannot be said to have been bettered by empires.

 

Are you seriously justifing numerous genocides and instances of ethnic cleansing because of ASOIAF too? In the "name of progress", hey...



#14 Hammermen's Revolt

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:09 PM

No one appreciates you bringing your racist "White Man's Burden" justification for the worst atrocities committed in the 19th and early 20th centuries onto these forums. 

I agree with this. I think OP is a huge troll.
 

Dany ended Slavery in a part of the world where the practice was extremely brutal, she didn't force her way of life on a peaceful people in the name of conquering and stealing their resources. 

Dany's storyline does reek of modern post-colonial white man's burden: the well known trope in which the white protagonist is the one who finally frees the 'savages' who are unable to rise up themselves.

#15 SeanF

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:24 PM

Maybe Daenerys isn't trying to colonize anything in Essos, but her role there ressembles, in some ways, the poem, that was instrumental to justify the european and north-americna colonialism at the eyes of the colonialists, "The White Man's Burden".


Like most of what Kipling wrote, there is criticism, as well as praise, for the White Man in that poem

#16 SeanF

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:28 PM

I assume, and hope, this is a troll thread.
Colonialism is responsible for some of the worst atrocities ever commited by mankind and has far reaching negative consequences that effect the world to this day. On top of that Daenerys isn't colonizing anything, so unless you brought this up simply to anger people I don't understand your point.


I agree Dany is not a colonialist.

On your wider point, I think colonialism has been both good and bad. There have been genocides and atrocities. On the other hand, the United States, Canada, Australia, Russia etc. would never have come have come into existence without it.

#17 Lord Joker

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:32 PM

            So I didnt relly like how negative my other post went. I didn’t know so many peopel hated all the good Dany is doing in slavers bane. Alot of you didn’t like the colonialist take on Dany. The route of this is probably modern’s society’s influence.

 

            In today mega-sensitive liberal apologist world, no one admits that colonialism was agood thing. Think about the Americas. Because of colonialism America was able to propser far beyond the rest of world besides like Britain and they kept up because gues what? They were also imperalists. They managed to civilize major parts of the world, just as American was able to grow out of the stone age that the Indians had.

            Its kind of sad that so many of them had to die in the name of progress, but I think you can all agree it was worth it. I mean, if America wasn’t colonized we may have never evolved like we did. Gorge RR martin is from New Jersey which means he may not have even existed if the pilgrims didn’t come. We woudn’t be discussing these books on here. We may not even have internet at all.

 

You're a fucking idiot. Thousands, probably millions died....to prosper? And you think that's okay? 

 

Definitely a troll



#18 Lointain

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:55 PM

I made a reference to the poem "The White Man's Burden" earlier, but i want to point one thing: i do not believe that Daenerys is trying to colonize Essos. The white man's burden justication that she shows in her actions to modify a society that she thinks is "barbarian" - the slavery (despicable for any good human being) in ghiscari society.

 

Has for colonialism: there were several types of colonialism.

One type, that is rarely remembered - because hapened 2000 years ago - but was extremely sucessful, was the way the Romans used (at the side of free cities, allied cities, tributary cities, latin citizens cities and roman citizens cities integrated in the empire) roman colonies to spread their language and culture in the territories previously under the control of a myriad of tribes: Hispania, Galia, Roman Germania and Roman Britania. The Romans were colonialists (already influenced by the helens) that builded the foundations of the current western civilization (Greece+Rome+Judaeo-Christian faith+the last 1500 years of a cultural melting pot in Europe).

Another type, too close for us and with plenty of broadcast in media: the type of colonialism made from europeans that we can find from America to Africa and Asia, that left millions of people dead, impoverished or enslaved.



#19 TallTyrionLannister

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 02:08 PM

I agree with this. I think OP is a huge troll.
 
Dany's storyline does reek of modern post-colonial white man's burden: the well known trope in which the white protagonist is the one who finally frees the 'savages' who are unable to rise up themselves.

 

That's why I hope the freemen of Slaver's Bay end up quelling the troubles themselves while Dany is... doing whatever it is she'll be doing in the Dothraki Sea. 

 

 

I made a reference to the poem "The White Man's Burden" earlier, but i want to point one thing: i do not believe that Daenerys is trying to colonize Essos. The white man's burden justication that she shows in her actions to modify a society that she thinks is "barbarian" - the slavery (despicable for any good human being) in ghiscari society.

 

Well remember, White Man's Burden was a sincere notion during the hay day of rampant imperialism, a line of propaganda that tried to paint lesser, non-western territories as being full of uncivilized savages wallowing in their own filth, just waiting for glorious America/western Europe come and teach them the error of their ways. 

 

Dany isn't simply going into a part of the world that's different from what she was raised to believe was right and messing it up for her own selfish gain, she actually is ending a very brutal and barbaric way of life. In that way, I think we can't fairly compare her to, say, Leopold of Belgium, who ended up slaughtering and mutilating half the population of The Congo in the name of his vested interests in the rubber industry.

 

 

Though I kind of get the feeling Martin is somewhat of a cultural relativist.... I mean, look at the lessons we've been taught:

 

"If you try and stop barbarians from raping and pillaging, your husband and unborn son will be murdered by a witch"

 

"If you try and stop slavery, it will destroy civilization".

 

 

Pretty odd  


Edited by TallTyrionLannister, 07 June 2014 - 02:09 PM.


#20 ghosts in winterfell

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 02:29 PM

Lol oh boy...