"The Sacrifice" Asha

[aryagonnakill#2]

I'm pretty sure that by telling Justin Massey that if he succeeds in bringing him his mercenaries from Essos he will get to marry Asha indicates that Stannis at least, has no intention of killing Asha.

I also think that the mountain clans are not clamoring for Theons death, but his confession about everything to get them all psyched up to kill some Boltons.

That being said, a nice theory was put forth a few pages back about Asha winding up with her back against the weirwood and getting killed during the battle. As useful as Asha can be to Stannis, I think she has less plot use than Theon. Think of all the potential interactions, overturning the kingsmoot, and the knowledge he has.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

The sacrifice is referring to the men that ate a man and were burned for it. That's how I took it

No, every other chapter name (except prologues and epilogues), from A Ghost in Winterfell to The Princess in the Tower, refers to the POV.

[rayarts]

Theon is going to die, not her.

[Hippocras]

Theon is going to die, not her.

Yep.

But the earlier post saying the title of the chapter always refers to the POV is also correct, because it is in that chapter that Stannis's men are insisting on her sacrifice and goading her.

Theon's arrival, however, changed things and if anyone will be sacrificed it is now Theon.

[lady jellybean]

I always thought she sacrificed her dreams and ambitions when she asked for stannis to take theons head. no theon no new kings moot. She would give up what she wants to give her little brother peace.

But I like her so I can see the good in her. She has a great heart, she just hides it very well.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Asha is as much a sacrifice as Quentyn is a dragontamer.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I think it is a many layered chapter title personally. Yes, it refers to Asha's predicament at the time, before Theon arrives. It also refers to Theon's sacrifice in bringing fArya to Stannis. It also, I am quite sure, refers to Theon's future role as a sacrifice. The WoW chapter leaves no doubt IMO that Theon is about to meet the gods, and that his sacrifice will somehow involve the weirwood tree as Bran, through the ravens was insisting.

I think you're reading too far into this.

[Hippocras]

I think you're reading too far into this.

no, actually I am not. It is entirely consistent with what we know of GRRM. Read the Mercy chapter? Multi-layered is what he does.

[Fire Eater]

Theon is going to die, not her.

Except if that is the impression it likely isn't going to happen. GRRM builds impressions just to overturn them, and pull the rug out from under the reader.

GRRM also has a fondness for bastards, cripples and broken things, so I think Theon will live while Asha, not so much.

[Hippocras]

Except if that is the impression it likely isn't going to happen. GRRM builds impressions just to overturn them, and pull the rug out from under the reader.

GRRM also has a fondness for bastards, cripples and broken things, so I think Theon will live while Asha, not so much.

I think you are dreaming. But WoW will tell. ;)

GRRM's affection for such characters certainly does not make them immune from death. He just tries to give them interesting deaths.

[Old Flint]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

Lets not forget that when Asha and the Mormont girl visits the tree on the island, there are blood spatters and it seems like a sacrifice has been made to the weirwood. This might be the sacrifice that the chapter title is referring to. Someone has been sacrificing something to the tree. Maybe the mountain clans has made a sacrifice out there? This might be good news for us, as this means the tree is "awake" and that Bran will be able to see the goings on at the lake and might be able to influence matters.

My pet theory on this is a bit spoilerish as there are some interesting bits in the sample chapter:

Spoiler

My theory is that Bran (through the ravens) are coaxing Stannnis to go to the tree on the island to sacrifice Theon. This is not because ha wants Theon dead, but that once out on the island, Stannis and his lot will be ambushed by the Bolton & Frey forces who are going to attack across the ice. Battle ensues and Stannis never gets around at sacrificing Theon. And during the battle, the throw-away comment that "the ice is full of holes like a cheese" will suddenly be quite important..

[Hippocras]

^Interesting idea. A lot of people would agree with you that Stannis is going to make use of the weak ice, but have not seen that version of how it would happen before.

[Fire Eater]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

Lets not forget that when Asha and the Mormont girl visits the tree on the island, there are blood spatters and it seems like a sacrifice has been made to the weirwood. This might be the sacrifice that the chapter title is referring to. Someone has been sacrificing something to the tree. Maybe the mountain clans has made a sacrifice out there? This might be good news for us, as this means the tree is "awake" and that Bran will be able to see the goings on at the lake and might be able to influence matters.

My pet theory on this is a bit spoilerish as there are some interesting bits in the sample chapter:

Spoiler

My theory is that Bran (through the ravens) are coaxing Stannnis to go to the tree on the island to sacrifice Theon. This is not because ha wants Theon dead, but that once out on the island, Stannis and his lot will be ambushed by the Bolton & Frey forces who are going to attack across the ice. Battle ensues and Stannis never gets around at sacrificing Theon. And during the battle, the throw-away comment that "the ice is full of holes like a cheese" will suddenly be quite important..

I think Asha will be one the island to raw the Freys, and give illusion of solid ground surrounding them where the ice is most unstable. However, a few Freys would make it onto the island, and Hosteen Frey may kill Asha, spilling her blood near the weirwood (something tells me Tristifer would go berserk and kill Hosteen after he kills Asha).

[Hippocras]

I think Asha will be one the island to raw the Freys, and give illusion of solid ground surrounding them where the ice is most unstable. However, a few Freys would make it onto the island, and Hosteen Frey may kill Asha, spilling her blood near the weirwood (something tells me Tristifer would go berserk and kill Hosteen after he kills Asha).

Tristifer is not there. He went with Tycho.

I don't get why you are so sure Asha will die. If she was not sacrificed in the chapter called the Sacrifice, she is never GOING to be sacrificed. Stannis is FAR from stupid. She is an extremely valuable prisonner alive.

[Fire Eater]

Tristifer is not there. He went with Tycho.

I don't get why you are so sure Asha will die. If she was not sacrificed in the chapter called the Sacrifice, she is never GOING to be sacrificed. Stannis is FAR from stupid. She is an extremely valuable prisonner alive.

And Tycho went to the village where Asha is. I doubt Tristifer would abandon her given his devotion.

Then give me a solid reason why her POV was called "The Sacrifice" when she wasn't being sacrificed in any way. Asha likes to get into a fight saying she would die in battle with a smile upon her lips, and she has little use to Stannis atm as she herself knew in her POV, he turns down her offer to get Dagon Cleftjaw to yield Torrhen's Square.

"Marriage is not for you," Theon decided. "When I rule, I believe I will pack you off to the silent sisters."

Silent sisters attend the dead.

And then her [Asha] back came up hard against a tree, and she could dance no more.

Trees are antagonistic wrt Asha. She doesn't like the trees, and feels they don't like her. She was captured and her army crushed by men disguised as trees with branches, and was trapped in a tree's roots when she was struck down. I think she would be cornered against a weirwood and killed.

[Hippocras]

This whole thread is about that. You could just read the points already made as they have not changed. It is mutli-layered.

1. Stannis's men were calling for her to be sacrificed in that chapter, and basically telling her they intended to burn her as a sacrifice. So, even if she was NOT sacrified, she was being TREATED as an imminent sacrifice by her captors so that was her role in the chapter.

2. Stannis, however, has the final word on that, and he never intended to sacrifice her. There is not the slightest sign of it anywhere in the books. His men may be stupid, as they have shown repeatedly, however he is not. He sees her as useful. She can be married to a Stannis ally, and her husband would then be leader of the Iron Islands in full repeat of Stannis's own family history. The Baratheon family began in precisely that way, by marrying the daughter of the last Storm King. You are giving way too much weight to small bits of text that likely don't mean anything at all, and nowhere near enough to characters and motivations which is actually how GRRM constructs his work (otherwise he would not use the POV structure in the first place). You need to see things from the perspective of Stannis.

3. Theon's arrival changes everything, and Theon arrived at the camp in that chapter, making him the new sacrifice. Theon is the one who supposedly killed the Stark kids. HE is the one the Northerners hate as the worst kind of traitor, and whose death would bring them onside, not Asha. Theon, by Westerosi logic, is Balon's heir and is therefore the "rightful" leader of the Iron Islands. And we know how much Stannis cares about birthright - that's what his entire war is about. So killing THEON means the conquest of the Iron Islands and it also means justice and rule of law. Why the hell would Stannis, of all people, spare the murderer, and kill the obedient daughter.

4. Asha herself makes a personal sacrifice, by asking for a better death for Theon.

[Fire Eater]

This whole thread is about that. You could just read the points already made as they have not changed. It is mutli-layered.

1. Stannis's men were calling for her to be sacrificed in that chapter, and basically telling her they intended to burn her as a sacrifice. So, even if she was NOT sacrified, she was being TREATED as an imminent sacrifice by her captors so that was her role in the chapter.

1. Except she wasn't a sacrifice. Justin and Stannis didn't treat her as such.

2. Stannis, however, has the final word on that, and he never intended to sacrifice her. There is not the slightest sign of it anywhere in the books. His men may be stupid, as they have shown repeatedly, however he is not. He sees her as useful. She can be married to a Stannis ally, and her husband would then be leader of the Iron Islands in full repeat of Stannis's own family history. The Baratheon family began in precisely that way, by marrying the daughter of the last Storm King. You are giving way too much weight to small bits of text that likely don't mean anything at all, and nowhere near enough to characters and motivations which is actually how GRRM constructs his work (otherwise he would not use the POV structure in the first place). You need to see things from the perspective of Stannis.

2. I never said she would be sacrificed intentionally. Think along the lines of a theory that Ned killing Lady paid for Bran's life. Need I bring up Doran's "We princes make careful plans only for the gods to dash them to pieces." Tywin had similar plans for Joffery, and later, Sansa with her marriage to Tyrion, look how they ended. The same can be said for Mace's plans for Margaery, Aegon and his party's plans for Dany, and Renly's plans. Asha had been going downhill, first she lost her claim to the Seastone, then she lost Deepwood Motte and her army and her freedom. She makes decisions that drive her deeper into the hole.

3. Theon's arrival changes everything, and Theon arrived at the camp in that chapter, making him the new sacrifice. Theon is the one who supposedly killed the Stark kids. HE is the one the Northerners hate as the worst kind of traitor, and whose death would bring them onside, not Asha. Theon, by Westerosi logic, is Balon's heir and is therefore the "rightful" leader of the Iron Islands. And we know how much Stannis cares about birthright - that's what his entire war is about. So killing THEON means the conquest of the Iron Islands and it also means justice and rule of law. Why the hell would Stannis, of all people, spare the murderer, and kill the obedient daughter.

3. Stannis wasn't considering her as a sacrifice, you yourself said as much. Stannis would spare him, because Theon remembers what Luwin told him in ACoK, and he considered: taking the black. Once a man requests, he can't be denied. Besides, everyone knows Rickon and Bran's supposed half-brother, Jon, is the LC, and they think he would make Theon's life a living hell or send him on a suicide mission. The impression you give is that he is going to die like the impression that Oberyn won after he speared Gregor to the ground, the impression that Ned would live after he made a false confession with Sansa's pleas and the HS making a speech, the impression that Jon was done for when he was sent to treat with Mance, that Theon had killed Rickon and Bran and that Aegon is the real deal. GRRM builds many impressions to overturn them.

4. Asha herself makes a personal sacrifice, by asking for a better death for Theon.

4. She loses nothing by asking for a better death for Theon, and I think saying that is can be used as the reason for her POV title is stretching it, IMO.

[thehandwipes]

My pet theory on this is a bit spoilerish as there are some interesting bits in the sample chapter:

Spoiler

My theory is that Bran (through the ravens) are coaxing Stannnis to go to the tree on the island to sacrifice Theon. This is not because ha wants Theon dead, but that once out on the island, Stannis and his lot will be ambushed by the Bolton & Frey forces who are going to attack across the ice. Battle ensues and Stannis never gets around at sacrificing Theon. And during the battle, the throw-away comment that "the ice is full of holes like a cheese" will suddenly be quite important..

Stannis is the one that will be doing the ambush, Bran may witness it but I doubt he will influence it (Bloodraven maybe).

1. Stannis's men were calling for her to be sacrificed in that chapter, and basically telling her they intended to burn her as a sacrifice. So, even if she was NOT sacrified, she was being TREATED as an imminent sacrifice by her captors so that was her role in the chapter.

Exactly, there's no mystery here. Should we be creating a thread about how Quentyn, or perhaps someone else, must have successfully tamed a dragon before setting them loose on Meerene.

The story in the north is bound to be complex and I don't think any of the POVs are going to be thrown away early in TWOW just to make Stannis's sword glow. And I've never understood the idea that the northern lords are going to flock to whoever kills Theon and support a war against his enemies in winter shortly after losing a very similar war. I'm sure there is some animosity there, but the ability to put a sword through a emasculated torture victim does not a king make.

[Hippocras]

^I don't think anyone is arguing that killing Theon would rally the Northerners and convince them to march South. All anyone is saying is that doing so would make them gruding allies. It would ensure they were not against Stannis as a candidate for the Iron Throne, as he broght the murderer of the Stark boys to justice. Which is really quite different from marching South with him, flying fiery heart banners.

Also, any sacrifice of King's blood (Theon is the son and rightful heir of the self-proclaimed king of the Iron Islands) at this point is not about the sword, it is about waking the stone dragon. Stannis thinks he has his sword, so that clearly would not be the point. He could really use a dragon though, from his perspective.

[thehandwipes]

Stannis is already the last man standing against the Lannisters and has liberated Deepwood Motte. If he can give the Bolton/Frey forces a good whack, the northern lords might rally behind Stannis as a king/war leader to beat the Boltons or except him as the best man to lead the fight against the Others if they get south of the wall. But if there is a single lord in the north who says: "Yeah I like all that but what I really want is to make that shivering shell of humanity over there pay for his crimes," then I suspect he was dropped on his head as a child (or he's Ramsay Bolton in disguise). Killing Theon would be an empty gesture, though he might do out his rigid sense of justice, but Stannis can best win support in the north by proving he can kick ass and take names. If they agree to anything (not supernatural) it will be a short campaign with achievable goals (roast the Boltons/Freys quick and get home fast).

We could all use a dragon, so maybe. But I don't think GRRM will throw away any of his POV characters early in TWOW, the story in the north is going to be complex and we'll need different POVs to sort it out, I think.