Arthur Dayne love?

[MsLibby]

Again, he spent an entire war that led to the deaths of the King, his wife (indirectly), his eldest son, his grandchildren and his daughter-in-law as a glorified sentry for a 15 year old girl that might even have not been there willingly. Where's the honor in that? How did Arthur Dayne helped his King or his cause? Or the Seven Kingdoms for that matter?

You say that Selmy would not be as fondly remembered, but you fail to provide any fact to present that. Barristan is already at least as respected as Arthur Dayne by the ASOIAF characters themselves.

And any complaint about Barristan's shortcomings comes from seeing his struggle to keep his vows, and he's the first to admit his failures in his POV. Had he died, we wouldn't have his POV.

If Dayne was alive, we would have his, with him undoubtedly remembering how he spent nearly a year listening to a 15 year old girl having sex/being raped by an older married man while the realm burned because of that, and with him doing nothing while his brave sworn brothers, like Barristan, fighting the war. And most of the failures to Barristan during Aerys' reign can't be attributed to him as well.

Barristan has always struck me as a bit of a selfish guy. Very judgemental.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Barristan has always struck me as a bit of a selfish guy. Very judgemental.

You do realize you haven't answered any of my questions or questioned anything I had said, right?

Anyway, I'm not even gonna debate the "Barristan is selfish" part due to it's sillyness, but rather ask: how do we know for sure Dayne wasn't selfish himself? I'm not saying he was, but we only hear of him from the POV of someone that idolized him (Jaime) and someone who saw him as a noble adversary (Ned).

It's entirely possible that he was simply playing the Game of Thrones and saw in Rhaegar a younger King that he found easier to manipulate than the unstable Aerys and made himself his closest advisor, knowing he would eventually promote him to LC or even Hand of the King, and certainly always listen to what he had to say. He already had his sister as Elia's closest friend, further helping him and his house. Jon being King was even better, because he had one that he would raise and would see him as the father he never had.

I'm not saying it's likely, but there's nothing really that contradicts either, and it's entirely possible this is partially right- maybe Dayne thought the prophecies were silly, but went along with it to get close to him.

[MsLibby]

I thought I had answered the statement you made about Dayne helping his King's cause when I said I thought he would follow Rheagar's belief that from his line the Prince That was Promised would arrive. Dayne likely thought he was guarding a savior of sorts.

As for Barristan, my selfish comment comes from his own confession. He admits that he served King's that he did not respect but he did so because he took a vow. That, IMHO, put himself before the good of the people. As I said, had he been left in KL instead of Jaime, half a million (or there abouts) would be dead because he would have died serving his king rather than doing what was right.

[Rhaegar Targaryen II]

because the few things that are mentioned about him were simply epic.

Made the deadliest bandit from a infamous outlaw group take a new sword mid battle and told him he would give him his own. Then gave him the pointy end.

Told ned (and this is despite being out numbered and fighting a losing war) hell no we ain't bowing to no one except some one named a Targ.

Hell he was best friends with one of the most mysterious characters in the book.

Whats not to love about the guy.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I thought I had answered the statement you made about Dayne helping his King's cause when I said I thought he would follow Rheagar's belief that from his line the Prince That was Promised would arrive. Dayne likely thought he was guarding a savior of sorts.

As for Barristan, my selfish comment comes from his own confession. He admits that he served King's that he did not respect but he did so because he took a vow. That, IMHO, put himself before the good of the people. As I said, had he been left in KL instead of Jaime, half a million (or there abouts) would be dead because he would have died serving his king rather than doing what was right.

Rhaegar thought Aegon was the PTWP, not Jon, whom he certainly believe would be a girl (who would be named Visenya).

Anyway, even if Dayne believed the prophecies, which we don't know, he failed to do anything useful- there's no denying he spent an entire war that led to the deaths of his King, his Queen, the Crown Prince and his wife and children, as a sentry to a 15 year old girl that might not even have been there willingly, and was an accomplice in her disappereance that led the realm to burn, meaning he either was stupid enough to think nothing would go wrong, or he simply failed to do anything about it.

If Jon really is the PTWP, the best thing Arthur Dayne ever did for him and the realm was to die, because that way he didn't grow up believing to be the Targaryen heir and was raised by Ned.

There's nothing that indicates Barristan would have KL burn; there's also nothing that indicates that Dayne would have murdered the King himself like Jaime did, being pure speculation on your part; after all, like I said, he was an accomplice in disappearing with Lyanna, which is what started it all. Although my guess is that either one of them would have stopped Aerys without killing him.

[MsLibby]

I didn't say Danye would have murdered the King but I am nearly positive that Barristan wouldn't have raised his sword against it. His honour is far too important to him. More than the health of the rhealm to be sure.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I didn't say Danye would have murdered the King but I am nearly positive that Barristan wouldn't have raised his sword against it. His honour is far too important to him. More than the health of the rhealm to be sure.

How would his honor be protected with him dying with the city burning to death? I don't see it, and there's no reason to assume he wouldn't have stopped Aerys, but likely without killing him. Only someone completely psychotic like Rossart would have allowed Aerys to do it.

[Oberyn2cool4Westeros]

People love snowflakes.

[Fire Eater]

Arthur Dayne was a highly skilled warrior as he didn't get Dawn by being a slouch, and he showed the Smiling Knight how he earned it. He also showed his chivalry in stopping mid-fight so the Smiling Knight could get a new sword. He was also a more than capable military commander as shown with dealing with the Kingswood Brotherhood by winning the forest folk over by paying them for food taken instead of traditional foraging, taking their grievances to King Aerys, expanding their grazing lands and winning them a few privileges such as the right to fell a certain number of trees each year and take a few of the king's deer in the autumn. Connington said of the GC's camp "even Arthur Dayne would have approved of," another hint to his abilities as a soldier. Jaime thinks well of him, and thinks that Dayne could match him in combat.

The one thing we here him say is when he knights Jaime "All knights must bleed, Jaime. Blood is the seal of our devotion." That line in and of itself is awesome.

Dayne stayed true to the end, protecting his king, even though the king was a newborn infant in what seemed like a lost cause with the war lost for the Targaryens.

I mean, Dayne's cool, but he spent an entire war as a glorified sentry for a 15 year old girl we are not even 100% sure came and/or stayed willingly while she made love/was raped by the married and father of two crown Prince, all while technically commiting treason by not informing his location to the King (and don't try to argue otherwise- Aerys sent the White Bull to look for Lyanna for a reason) nor reporting for duty when he learned that a war started.

Not informing the king of the exact location of Rhaegar isn't treason, especially with Aerys having never given Dayne to order to inform him of Rhaegar's location since Dayne was with him when he disappeared with Lyanna.

[MsLibby]

How would his honor be protected with him dying with the city burning to death? I don't see it, and there's no reason to assume he wouldn't have stopped Aerys, but likely without killing him. Only someone completely psychotic like Rossart would have allowed Aerys to do it.

I can't picture Barristan doing anything to stop the King from burning the city. Honour...HIS honour...would have him stand at his post and do as the King commanded.

[Mike]

Ned and Jaime are two of the best characters in the series. They are also two of the most disparate characters in the series - enemies for the entirety of the books. And both of them hero-worshipped Dayne.

As such, we get a wholly idealized version of Dayne. The only disparaging remarks regarding Dayne come from Barristan, who was the greatest knight in the realm before Dayne - which creates an interesting dichotomy. Dayne represents the myth of the great knight, the honour, the martial skill, the ideal. Barristan shows us the realities, the regret, the guilt, the compromise.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Arthur Dayne was a highly skilled warrior as he didn't get Dawn by being a slouch, and he showed the Smiling Knight how he earned it. He also showed his chivalry in stopping mid-fight so the Smiling Knight could get a new sword. He was also a more than capable military commander as shown with dealing with the Kingswood Brotherhood by winning the forest folk over by paying them for food taken instead of traditional foraging, taking their grievances to King Aerys, expanding their grazing lands and winning them a few privileges such as the right to fell a certain number of trees each year and take a few of the king's deer in the autumn. Connington said of the GC's camp "even Arthur Dayne would have approved of," another hint to his abilities as a soldier. Jaime thinks well of him, and thinks that Dayne could match him in combat.

The one thing we here him say is when he knights Jaime "All knights must bleed, Jaime. Blood is the seal of our devotion." That line in and of itself is awesome.

Dayne stayed true to the end, protecting his king, even though the king was a newborn infant in what seemed like a lost cause with the war lost for the Targaryens.

Not informing the king of the exact location of Rhaegar isn't treason, especially with Aerys having never given Dayne to order to inform him of Rhaegar's location since Dayne was with him when he disappeared with Lyanna.

That's non-sense. For one thing, it's obvious that Aerys would want to know where Rhaegar was since a war had just started in part due to this actions.

It's like saying that Roose didn't betray Robb when he sent those men to die in Duskendable since Robb never said not to send them.

And second, Aerys did send another KG to look for Rhaegar, which makes undeniable that he wanted Dayne and Whent to tell him where Rhaegar was. To use a more modern analogy, a police detective can't tell his superior officer that he didn't warned him about the location of a missing person because "you told detective X to look for him, not me".

I can't picture Barristan doing anything to stop the King from burning the city. Honour...HIS honour...would have him stand at his post and do as the King commanded.

Again, there's absolutely nothing that indicates that. We know from the ToJ that Dayne and the others despised Jaime as much as Barristan did, and there's no evidence that any of them learned about Aerys intentions.

Admittedly, it's kind of unrealistic for no one to learn about it- we know that at least Pycelle and Varys must have known, and I see no reason why it should have been a secret, but it was.

Ned and Jaime are two of the best characters in the series. They are also two of the most disparate characters in the series - enemies for the entirety of the books. And both of them hero-worshipped Dayne.

As such, we get a wholly idealized version of Dayne. The only disparaging remarks regarding Dayne come from Barristan, who was the greatest knight in the realm before Dayne - which creates an interesting dichotomy. Dayne represents the myth of the great knight, the honour, the martial skill, the ideal. Barristan shows us the realities, the regret, the guilt, the compromise.

And this is exactly my point; if Barristan had died at the Trident and Dayne had survived, it would be Barristan the one representing the great knight and Dayne the reality.

But if you look at what they actually did during Robert's Rebellion, you see a man that was wounded by arrow, sword and spear in the Trident (and presumedly fought in other battles as well, though there's a lot about RR that we don't know yet), but not before killing dozens of his King's enemies, and a man that spent an entire war as a glorified sentry to a 15 year old girl that may not have been there willingly, at least entirely so.

Dayne also failed to protect Aerys and Rhaegar more than Barristan did- since he at least tried and nearly died for that- and if Jon was King, then he failed to protect him as well. But yet he never gets any grief for that, while some call Barristan a failure (but notice that no character other than Barristan himself does it in ASOIAF).

Often, the best thing a man can do for his reputation is to die. Dayne is proof of that.

[Fire Eater]

That's non-sense. For one thing, it's obvious that Aerys would want to know where Rhaegar was since a war had just started in part due to this actions.

Except Arthur Dayne was with Rhaegar since Lyanna ran off with him, and didn't know about the war until much later at the same time as Rhaegar. If Aerys managed to reach Rhaegar than he likely already knew where he was. He was nowhere near Aerys at the time, and never was, so. Also, calling something nonsense, doens't help you argument at all, espcially since it looks like you missed a few things.

It's like saying that Roose didn't betray Robb when he sent those men to die in Duskendable since Robb never said not to send them.

That is a false analogy as Roose was purposely betraying his king in sending those men to Duskendale, Robb, while Dayne was still staying loyal to his king, Aerys.

And second, Aerys did send another KG to look for Rhaegar, which makes undeniable that he wanted Dayne and Whent to tell him where Rhaegar was. To use a more modern analogy, a police detective can't tell his superior officer that he didn't warned him about the location of a missing person because "you told detective X to look for him, not me".

Again, they were nowhere near Aerys to be given that order, and they didn't know a war had started yet. If a KG had come to the ToJ from Aerys, then Dayne and Whent didn't need to tell Aerys as he likely already knew where Rhaegar was since Hightower knew where to go. The problem with that analogy is that is law enforcement, and the police officer is there with the superior officer while Dayne and Whent weren't with Aerys.