Watchers on the Wall Episode Guide

[Palladinho]

You're really changing the scales aren't you? You said she controls him (or implied strongly that she does) whereas she does not. He appeases her in some ways to keep her loyal while using her powers for his own ends. If he was as much under control of her as you suggest he'd burn a hell lot of members of his army and piss the Northerners off so badly they'd abandon him right now.

And again. Begging for fucking sex on the beach. Nobody, nobody who can claim to know a bit about who Stannis is would justify that scene. He doesn't beg for sex he doesn't talk about it or women infront of others and is pretty uptight on the issue.

Why the hell are you taking Jon's impressions of Stannis and Mel's relationship as solid fact? :dunno:

Your argument is ridiculous indeed. If Mel was in control, so many more of Stan's men would burn it would be ridiculous. She doesn't give him orders. She gives him council. Why isn't there an argument of 'Stannis is controlled by Davos!', I wonder? He acts upon the latter's advice certainly as he does upon Mel'. Interesting.

[sj4iy]

You're really changing the scales aren't you? You said she controls him (or implied strongly that she does) whereas she does not. He appeases her in some ways to keep her loyal while using her powers for his own ends. If he was as much under control of her as you suggest he'd burn a hell lot of members of his army and piss the Northerners off so badly they'd abandon him right now.

And again. Begging for fucking sex on the beach. Nobody, nobody who can claim to know a bit about who Stannis is would justify that scene. He doesn't beg for sex he doesn't talk about it or women infront of others and is pretty uptight on the issue.

Why the hell are you taking Jon's impressions of Stannis and Mel's relationship as solid fact? :dunno:

Your argument is ridiculous indeed. If Mel was in control, so many more of Stan's men would burn it would be ridiculous. She doesn't give him orders. She gives him council. Why isn't there an argument of 'Stannis is controlled by Davos!', I wonder? He acts upon the latter's advice certainly as he does upon Mel'. Interesting.

You can choose to ignore it and continue to believe that Stannis is the one who controls that relationship. But your view is contradicted by the text itself, which shows over and over again that Mel knows how to manipulate Stannis.

Case in point: He needs Jon Snow on his side, to become Lord of Winterfell and rally the North to his cause. But what does he do? He puts a stipulation on his offer that Jon has to get rid of the heart tree in Winterfell and accept R'hollor, which ultimately drives Jon to reject his offer. It's not smart leadership to make men reject their gods when you need those men on your side. Now tell me that Melisandre had NOTHING to do with that and how 'ridiculous' it is that I would make such an assumption.

What will happen to Stannis when Mel realizes that he's not Azor Ahai, as she has thought this entire time? What happens if she withdraws her support of him as her leader?

[Palladinho]

Explain how she controls him? This is getting so annoying. Explain how Mel controls Stannis please. Haven't had a good facepalming in a long time.

If Mel leaves Stannis his men stay with him. They went to the dreaded North with him to fight for his Throne; I doubt the red god vs snow god battle was what motivated them. Stannis is a strong leader who's men follow him because he is a soldier and a fighter; he's been down in the dirt with them before. Many of them dont even fucking like Mel how would they leave Stannis if she leaves lol

Nonsensical

[sj4iy]

Explain how she controls him? This is getting so annoying. Explain how Mel controls Stannis please. Haven't had a good facepalming in a long time.

If Mel leaves Stannis his men stay with him. They went to the dreaded North with him to fight for his Throne; I doubt the red god vs snow god battle was what motivated them. Stannis is a strong leader who's men follow him because he is a soldier and a fighter; he's been down in the dirt with them before. Many of them dont even fucking like Mel how would they leave Stannis if she leaves lol

Nonsensical

It's nonsensical if you think that Melisandre is the only one being used in that relationship. Stannis helps her make a shadow baby by giving some of his life force to kill his younger brother. He would have let Melisandre sacrifice Edric Storm simply because he had king's blood in him. How far is too far for Stannis? What's a line he won't cross? Jon feared Melisandre so much that he sent Aemon and Dalla's baby away because of their King's blood.

Don't act like Stannis is good and just, because he's not. He is a kinslayer who will use dark magic to gain what he wants, and doesn't realize how Melisandre is using him for her own purposes. She has dressed him up as a farce because she wanted to be the one who finds Azor Ahai reborn, and he lets her.