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Inconsistent Dornish reactions


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#1 tomkat364

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 04:24 PM

Tywin Lannister kills or orders the killing of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon = Dorne hates the Lannisters forever.

Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna (cheating on Elia and starting a big war that results in the death of Elia and kids) = Dorne secretly plots to marry into the Targaryen family?

 

To my knowledge we have no specific insight into the Dornish opinion of Rhaegar or Targaryens in general, but given the fact that Ned killed Arthur Dayne, rode to Starfall and somehow caused the death of Ashara Dayne, does Doran's acceptance of Viserys imply that Dorne knows more about the circumstances surrounding the Tower of Joy (outside of Dorne)?


Edited by tomkat364, 11 June 2014 - 04:26 PM.


#2 King Hodorius

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 04:37 PM

Tywin orders the murder of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon = Dorne hates the Lannisters forever.

So far so good, but now:

Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna (cheating on Elia and starting a big war that results in the death of Elia and kids) = Dorne secretly plots to marry into the Targaryen family.

How can you blame Rhaegar for the deaths of Elia and her children? That's like saying Robert Baratheon was responsible for Ned's beheading because he brought him to KL.

Also, you can't say Dorne has made inconsistent reactions based on two examples. And anyways, what's wrong with making "inconsistent reactions"? If someone does the same always , he becomes predictable .

#3 the Scorpion Knight

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:12 PM

I i think you means why the martells aren't angry at Ned and the starks? 

well first: the next child wold have killed Elia ( this is a fact even oberyn acknowleges)

2nd ned was the one who cried loudest for justice for elia and her children. and the martells know it.

3rd doran and oberyn quite likely know that the one family that lost equal or more in roberts rebellion besides the targs and martells are the starks



#4 northernmonkey

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:16 PM

I'm guessing you mean why aren't the Dornish annoyed with Rhaegar for cheating on Elia and publicly disrespecting her, which is a good question.



#5 Jason Stublaka

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:19 PM

Tywin orders the murder of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon = Dorne hates the Lannisters forever.

So far so good, but now:

Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna (cheating on Elia and starting a big war that results in the death of Elia and kids) = Dorne secretly plots to marry into the Targaryen family.

How can you blame Rhaegar for the deaths of Elia and her children? That's like saying Robert Baratheon was responsible for Ned's beheading because he brought him to KL.

Also, you can't say Dorne has made inconsistent reactions based on two examples. And anyways, what's wrong with making "inconsistent reactions"? If someone does the same always , he becomes predictable .

Look at how the Freys reacted when Robb violated their marriage agreement. The fact that the Dornish don't remember Elia being snubbed by Rhaegar is a little odd, but understandable.

Edited by Jason Stublaka, 11 June 2014 - 05:22 PM.


#6 tomkat364

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:19 PM

Actually, my point was why aren't the Martells upset with the Targaryens.  If anything, they seem to be fervent proTargaryens. 

Everything that happened was because of Rhaegar's running off with Elia.  EVERYONE comments on how Rhaegar spurned Elia by riding past her and not naming her queen of love and beauty.  Most people who have a brother in law that has cheated on their sister tend to dislike the brother in law.  Aerys and Rhaegar were very responsible for just about everything leading up to Elia's death, so why do the Martells seem to be cool with the Targaryens?

 

As far as being inconsistent, I'm not saying Doran is unpredictable based on two examples.  I'm simply questioning if he is reacting differently for a good reason.

 

EDIT (the previous two posters got my drift I think)


Edited by tomkat364, 11 June 2014 - 05:20 PM.


#7 Bael's Bastard

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:25 PM

Rhaegar and Aerys are both dead, and neither of them murdered Elia and her children, even if you want to blame them for contributing to the escalation to war. They had a century of peace with and being among the Targaryens' closest allies prior to the war. Why would they have any hostility toward Targaryens in general or Viserys and Dany in particular? Tywin and his men, on the other hand, literally murdered Elia and her children.

Edited by Bael's Bastard, 11 June 2014 - 05:26 PM.


#8 RoamingRonin

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:36 PM

It is odd. It should also be remembered Aerys kept Elia and her children from Dorne as hostages. What Rhaegar did could be forgiven but when you add that to the fact Aerys did nothing to protect Elia and the children...

#9 armidil0

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:42 PM

I just wonder why Dorne didn't just leave the 7K after RR. They were only in it because they were married to the targs. Now that they were gone they could have left and no one could do anything about it. 

 

Dorne couldn't even be conquered with Dragons.



#10 Dain Storm

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:44 PM

Dorne was not happy about Rhaegar running off with Lyanna, but Rhaegar is dead, and his elopement with her is the lesser of two evils when compared to the murder of Elia and her children.

#11 Bael's Bastard

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:53 PM

It is odd. It should also be remembered Aerys kept Elia and her children from Dorne as hostages. What Rhaegar did could be forgiven but when you add that to the fact Aerys did nothing to protect Elia and the children...


I don't doubt that they hated Aerys, possibly even Rhaegar, but neither of them survived the war. And they still didn't murder Elia and her children. Even if Aerys had gone ahead and killed them in the wildfire plot, that wouldn't mean the Martells must automatically hate or plot against Aerys' innocent children. Tywin and his men murdered Elia and her children, yet they still betrothed Doran's son to Tywin's granddaughter.

#12 RoamingRonin

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:56 PM

Good points from the two people above me ^^^. Can't multiple quote.

#13 Asdfreak

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:04 PM

Your mistake is to assume they like them because they are Tagaryen loyalists. In truth, the Targs are Dorne's tool for revenge, and using someone as your puppet and at your will is also some kind of revenge. Doran's morals seem to be flexible when it comes to this.



#14 Bael's Bastard

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:09 PM

I just wonder why Dorne didn't just leave the 7K after RR. They were only in it because they were married to the targs. Now that they were gone they could have left and no one could do anything about it. 
 
Dorne couldn't even be conquered with Dragons.


Dorne isn't a military powerhouse, and they have clearly been plotting against the post-Targ rulers. Openly leaving the 7K makes it more likely for them to be treated as rebels than to still be able to claim a small council seat 15 or more years later, which is surely more beneficial to their plans than being treated like a blackballed house.

#15 Minsc

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:13 PM

Because ordering the murder of your sister and her two small children is much worse then her husband running off with another woman.



#16 armidil0

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:18 PM

Dorne isn't a military powerhouse, and they have clearly been plotting against the post-Targ rulers. Openly leaving the 7K makes it more likely for them to be treated as rebels than to still be able to claim a small council seat 15 or more years later, which is surely more beneficial to their plans than being treated like a blackballed house.

They don't need to be a military powerhouse. Nobody could conquer them anyway. And the only reason I see for staying would be hoping for a Targ restoration which realistically, was not very viable and to try and get close with the Lannisters to backstab them, which didn't happen/workout for them anyway. 



#17 illrede

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:30 PM

Because they're precocious nationalists?

 

Last guy to do them harm is their eternal enemy. Second to the last guy to them them harm is their bosom ally against their eternal enemy.

 

Dorne really puts renaissance-era England into my head.



#18 nara

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:46 PM

Tywin orders the murder of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon = Dorne hates the Lannisters forever.

So far so good, but now:

Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna (cheating on Elia and starting a big war that results in the death of Elia and kids) = Dorne secretly plots to marry into the Targaryen family.

How can you blame Rhaegar for the deaths of Elia and her children? That's like saying Robert Baratheon was responsible for Ned's beheading because he brought him to KL.

Also, you can't say Dorne has made inconsistent reactions based on two examples. And anyways, what's wrong with making "inconsistent reactions"? If someone does the same always , he becomes predictable .

 

I think we can blame Rhaegar for leaving 3 KG (including the Lord Commander) to protect his mistress while leaving only Jaime (who's barely more than a boy still) to protect Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon.



#19 tomkat364

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:09 PM

I get that murder is worse than adultery. But still, Rhaegar spurned Elia almost a year before she was killed, spent that year shacking up with his girlfriend, and as someone else stated, Aerys was holding Elia as hostage (Rhaegar's seat was dragonstone, yet she was in KL). It was only AFTER Viserys fled to Braavos that Oberyn made the marriage pact with Darry. And there is no mention of ill will during that year or immediately after. It's not like they were pissed at the Targs, THEN said "wait! Lannisters are worse, let's focus on them."
I can't help but think how my brother in law would react if I left my wife and our three kids to kidnap some other woman, and then they were all murdered as a direct result of MY actions. His first reaction would not be to try to marry his daughter to my brother!
As far as Trystane is concerned, this is now 15 years later and it gives them access to Myrcella. Even though they are openly hostile towards Lannisters.

The way Oberyn takes slight from things, the immediate plan to wed Viserys suggests to me that Dorne new a little more about what was going on with Rhaegar. Given that ToJ ison outskirts of Dorne AND Ned brought Jon to Starfall following ToJ, seems strange. but then why not try to marry Arianne to Jon?

Edited by tomkat364, 11 June 2014 - 10:13 PM.


#20 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:12 PM

I think we can blame Rhaegar for leaving 3 KG (including the Lord Commander) to protect his mistress while leaving only Jaime (who's barely more than a boy still) to protect Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon.

He didn't leave them on the middle of the street. They were not only in a fortress but in THE fortress where the King lived too, the safer place in Westeros until you open the gates.