Jaime's biggest crime

[Brute of Bracken]

I see a lot of people saying Jaime's biggest crime is pushing Bran out the window. I have a slightly different take on this.

When Bran saw Jaime and Cersei in the tower, Jaime was running the risk that Bran would tell people what he saw. That would mean the certain death of himself and Cersei, and likely their kids as well, which in turn would likely lead to war. However, to stop this, he must kill an innocent eight year old boy. Jaime's stuck between a rock and a hard place here, and he makes a choice.

Was this choice unambiguously a bad one? I don't think so. Even Ned Stark has wondered what he would do in such a situation.

Instead of criticizing the choice per se, I instead criticize his prior actions which led to this situation, which is:fucking his sister who happens to be the Queen in a place where he might be discovered.

In other words, I argue that Jaime's biggest mistake is his foolishness. He allowed himself to get caught, which then put him in this unsavory position.

This is not to say that this is the only crime he has committed. I'm not sure if incest itself is objectively wrong, but fucking the King's wife is. Attempting to put his bastards on the throne is another crime.

In short, I argue that given the situation Jaime was in, pushing Bran out the window is not unambiguously a mistake. Instead, allowing such a situation to materialize in the first place was his biggest mistake. Jaime is not a twisted evil monster who likes throwing kids out of the window/. He's just a guy who's made some incredibly foolish choices.

I'm not trying to be a Jaime fanboy and absolve him of his crimes in this thread. I think this logic is true of many murderers in the real world. Many are just normal people, who've made some really bad choices - forcing themselves in a situation where they need to kill someone to save themselves. I'm just pointing out that Jaime is a very realistic character, and not a monster as some may make him out to be, unlike say Ramsay.

[Lord Flashheart]

Let me just say one thing. Ramsay is a psychopath. In the clinical sense. He enjoys hurting and killing people for almost no reason at all. Comparing Jamie to him would be foolish for anyone to do. That being said people like Ramsay exist in our world as well.

As for Jamie, he could push the entire Stark clan out of a tower window and I would still love him so there isn't much I can add to this. Such is life, you make poor decisions and down the road it will culminate most times into an unfortunate situation leaving you with unsavory choices.

[kingkiller]

his biggest crime was something he failed to do, and that was protect elia and her kids. instead of sitting his ass on the iron throne and waiting he should have done what he could to protect them. no way the mountain goes through tywin's own son to do the things he did to them. now, i know jaime was busy killing the mad king at pretty much the exact same time and may not have made it anyway, but i think he should have tried.

[Lord Flashheart]

Kingkiller,

If he does that the pyromancer has time to burn kings landing to the ground. So that is unfair to put on Jamie IMO.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I don't think what Jaime did to Bran was a choice at all. I believe it was a decision based on an impossible to avoid ultimatum. Philosophically, these aren't the same thing. A choice implies that there might be positive consequences across the board. There is none of that with an ultimatum. It may sound like semantics but I think it's important to distinguish.

But yes, I do agree that the twincest was the real mistake. Not because the twincest itself is wrong but because of who Cersei is, for fucks sake. If he wasn't the queen, he probably just convinced Bran to keep his mouth shut and that's that.

[JoeyBanana]

That's Jaime. He's reckless and tends to act before thinking.

Some of his crimes could have been avoided. Knocking out or seizing the helpless Aerys instead of butchering him would have still gotten him hate as a traitor and oathbreaker but not made him infamous as the kingslayer. And yes, being more clever with his incest would have not made the Bran incident necessary. Even slaughtering Ned's men was not needed, though you can't argue that was one of his worst moments. That was out of pure spite and did not help Tyrion at all.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He stopped caring any more. That's his biggest crime.

[Brute of Bracken]

He stopped caring any more. That's his biggest crime.

I wouldn't say that's a crime.As long as you don't hurt anyone, I think you're allowed not to care. I believe there are medically people with simply no emotions, like psychopaths. Would you say their very existence is a crime? I don't think so. Jaime's crimes are his (foolish) actions.

[juanml82]

Look at where Jaime and Cersei where making love and check how Bran got to eavesdrop on them. The went to one of Winterfell's most secluded and abandoned places and if it wasn't for a crazy kid who - literally - fell from the sky they would never have been discovered.

[Lord Flashheart]

He stopped caring any more. That's his biggest crime.

That on it's own is not a crime.

I wouldn't say that's a crime.As long as you don't hurt anyone, I think you're allowed not to care. I believe there are medically people with simply no emotions, like psychopaths. Would you say their very existence is a crime? I don't think so. Jaime's crimes are his (foolish) actions.

I can vouch for this personally. Although a psychopath by definition will most likely hurt somebody in their lifetime. Sociopath is more like it.

[Brute of Bracken]

I don't think what Jaime did to Bran was a choice at all. I believe it was a decision based on an impossible to avoid ultimatum. Philosophically, these aren't the same thing. A choice implies that there might be positive consequences across the board. There is none of that with an ultimatum. It may sound like semantics but I think it's important to distinguish.

Well I think it is a choice, He can choose not to kill Bran, which would result in different, and arguably worse, payoffs for him and the ones he loves.

[Minstral]

The path of ruin that he finds himself in at the end of ASOS is, for the most part, one of his own doing. Sure there were people like his father and Cersei helping him along, but much of it is his own poor choices reguarding Aerys and his handling of the emerging Lannister-Stark feud. His biggest crime though?

He stopped caring any more. That's his biggest crime.

In a sense this sounds like what a reader has judged as a character flaw so I would discount this.

I consider one of his bigger crimes, one that is provable beyond the incest thing, is the public attack on the Lord of Winterfell and then absconding to from the KG to join his fathers invasion of the Riverlands. I think that is a treason that dwarfs all of the treason we saw from the KG in the Dance of Dragons (the civial war not the book).

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Look at where Jaime and Cersei where making love and check how Bran got to eavesdrop on them. The went to one of Winterfell's most secluded and abandoned places and if it wasn't for a crazy kid who - literally - fell from the sky they would never have been discovered.

Stannis and LF had alreafy discovered them.

[Brute of Bracken]

Look at where Jaime and Cersei where making love and check how Bran got to eavesdrop on them. The went to one of Winterfell's most secluded and abandoned places and if it wasn't for a crazy kid who - literally - fell from the sky they would never have been discovered.

But if you keep doing twincest with the Queen, you are bound to get discovered by someone somewhere. That ain't gonna end well. Jaime should have realized this - hence, his biggest crime is his foolishness, by continuing the twincest.

[James Arryn]

The things he does for love:

* affronting his Lord father out of love for Cersei and glory.

* incest and cuckolding the King, out of love for his sister.

* Killing Aerys out of love for the people and his father.

* saving Bran, out of love of honour.

* pushing Bran, out of love of his sister and children.

* attacking Ned, abandoning his post as KG and prosecuting a war out of love of his brother.

* freeing a convicted Regicide and kinslayer out of love of his brother.

* threatening Edmure's baby out of love for peace.

* relinquishing command of his effective campaign in the RL out of love of Brienne.

[JoeyBanana]

The path of ruin that he finds himself in at the end of ASOS is, for the most part, one of his own doing. Sure there were people like his father and Cersei helping him along, but much of it is his own poor choices reguarding Aerys and his handling of the emerging Lannister-Stark feud. His biggest crime though?

In a sense this sounds like what a reader has judged as a character flaw so I would discount this.

I consider one of his bigger crimes, one that is provable beyond the incest thing, is the public attack on the Lord of Winterfell and then absconding to from the KG to join his fathers invasion of the Riverlands. I think that is a treason that dwarfs all of the treason we saw from the KG in the Dance of Dragons (the civial war not the book).

I always thought that Jamie was officially ordered by Joffrey to help Tywin. Wasn't Lewyn Martell also commanding Dornish forces in the Rebellion? I was under the impression the King could order his KGs to do pretty much anything. Execute Lord Paramounts, beat little girls, murder a Hand of the King, or command an army. So in the eyes of Westeros, it wasn't a crime. It was morally grey as hell, sure, but not breaking the law.

[Hodor the Articulate]

The things he does for love:

<snip>

His biggest crime is that he loves too much. :wub:

[A Man Reads]

Can we only pick one? Killing Aerys, incestuously cuckolding Robert, attempting to kill Bran, abandoning his army in the Riverlands, abandoning the Kingsguard to lead a Lannister army to war . . . they add up.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Jaime's biggest crime is certainly the incest, especially while Cersei was queen and fathering bastards for the throne. Most of his bad actions are related to that. One other despicable action is that it seems he was looking to maim or kill Arya to please Cersei.

And yes it was foolish to have the relationship with Cersei and have sex in Winterfell, and it was a choice to throw Bran down. And I really can't divorse this choice and the whole situation with Jaime's treasonous actions and choices before it or with who he seemd to be, someone who after attempting to murder her brother would try to maim Arya. And for what? As for the Bran fall, just when Bran overhears them he is conspiring with Cersei and is fucking the queen. But overall throwing Bran down pales in comparison to the civil war, but can be added to the list of horrible consequences of Jaime's incestious relationship.

But if you keep doing twincest with the Queen, you are bound to get discovered by someone somewhere. That ain't gonna end well. Jaime should have realized this - hence, his biggest crime is his foolishness, by continuing the twincest.

Agreed. IIRC He even fucked Cersei once with Robert sleeping near them in the same room and planned to kill him if he found them.

[Biter the Gallant]

It worths to note,however, that even Cersei told Jaime later that it was unnecessary to throw Bran out of the window. And when Cersei Lannister thinks about an act as unnecessarily agressive, that means a lot about that act :-) Yes, it was a very dangerous situation for them, but remember, Bran was just a little boy, who even did not understand sexuality at all, he thought they were fighting, (And yes, the main fault was continuing their incest anyway after Cersei became queen.)