Mark Antony Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 This thread makes me want Stoneheart to hang him more than ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 This thread makes me want Stoneheart to hang him more than everI wonder how the hell he will get out of it? I can't imagine his story is over yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I wonder how the hell he will get out of it? I can't imagine his story is over yet.I can't imagine Stoneheart letting him go :devil:His ordering of the slaughter of Jory Cassel and Neds other guardsman in AGOT is another despicable act of his I hope he gets his punisment for :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I can't imagine Stoneheart letting him go :devil:His ordering of the slaughter of Jory Cassel and Neds other guardsman in AGOT is another despicable act of his I hope he gets his punisment for :)I personally believe he'll be Cersei's valonqar, so I'm assuming he escapes LSH somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkhawk Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I never understood the "I did it to protect my family" defense of Jamie. A bank robber shots a teller who saw their face, because he might have gotten caught. Do people defend the bank robber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCasualObserver Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I never understood the "I did it to protect my family" defense of Jamie. A bank robber shots a teller who saw their face, because he might have gotten caught. Do people defend the bank robber? Ah, but did the bank robber have gorgeous blonde hair? Was he a misunderstood bad boy who just needs the love of a good woman to straighten out? You don't understand him! Waaaah! Waaah! #fangirling You're right of course; excusing one crime simply because it was intended to cover up another doesn't make the first magically disappear. Also, I'm very dubious over how much he loved his children considering his reaction to Joffrey's death. How much can any parent love their children (and Cersei is particularly guilty of this) when the birth of said children is a deliberate act to destabilize the monarchy? The children are blameless, but the parents certainly aren't. Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen's bastardy is the spark which allowed LF to set Westeros on a path to war; Jaime has to share in that blame. So please forum, please... don't try and justify the actions of a child crippler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russellstiltskin Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I see a lot of people saying Jaime's biggest crime is pushing Bran out the window. I have a slightly different take on this. When Bran saw Jaime and Cersei in the tower, Jaime was running the risk that Bran would tell people what he saw. That would mean the certain death of himself and Cersei, and likely their kids as well, which in turn would likely lead to war. However, to stop this, he must kill an innocent eight year old boy. Jaime's stuck between a rock and a hard place here, and he makes a choice. Was this choice unambiguously a bad one? I don't think so. Even Ned Stark has wondered what he would do in such a situation. Instead of criticizing the choice per se, I instead criticize his prior actions which led to this situation, which is:fucking his sister who happens to be the Queen in a place where he might be discovered. In other words, I argue that Jaime's biggest mistake is his foolishness. He allowed himself to get caught, which then put him in this unsavory position. This is not to say that this is the only crime he has committed. I'm not sure if incest itself is objectively wrong, but fucking the King's wife is. Attempting to put his bastards on the throne is another crime. In short, I argue that given the situation Jaime was in, pushing Bran out the window is not unambiguously a mistake. Instead, allowing such a situation to materialize in the first place was his biggest mistake. Jaime is not a twisted evil monster who likes throwing kids out of the window/. He's just a guy who's made some incredibly foolish choices. I'm not trying to be a Jaime fanboy and absolve him of his crimes in this thread. I think this logic is true of many murderers in the real world. Many are just normal people, who've made some really bad choices - forcing themselves in a situation where they need to kill someone to save themselves. I'm just pointing out that Jaime is a very realistic character, and not a monster as some may make him out to be, unlike say Ramsay. Though I love Jaime's character, and agree with some of what you have to say, I feel like you are minimizing the act of throwing an innocent 8 yr old boy out a window...an argument can certainly be made that he was protecting his family with this act, and you argue that his actions before and leading up to the incident are worse...but I don't agree, though I see your line of logic. Cersei herself argued that they could have cajoled and threatened him into silence, and Jaime was risking just as much by tossing a kid from a window...the Lord of the Castle's 8-year-old son. Had anyone saw this, and raised the alarm, Jaime and Cersei would never have been able to escape the tower unnoticed, and it's likely the golden-haired Jaime could've even been recognized from the ground. This seems even more risky than an 8 year-old's clumsy recollections and inept descriptions of what he saw. He had no proof. And without proof, it seems hard to believe that Robert would have Jaime and Cersei killed, not to mention the children he has always accepted as his. And what of Lord Tywin? His wroth would be great if his twins were killed upon the word of an 8 yr-old (remember Arya's description of what she overheard in the Red Keep when she told her father?) And Jaime himself argues that if Bran wakes up and talks, he will kill Ned and even go to war if necessary. (The war for Cersei's cunt) lol And I don't remember Ned wondering if he would do the same thing...I only remember him wondering to what length's he may go for his children, but iirc, it wasn't in reference to Jaime's deed so its far from an apples-to-apples comparison. If I'm wrong, however, please do enlighten me:) And although some of Jaime's actions, even after getting through SoS, are questionable, I don't feel they compare with the attempted murder of an innocent 8-year-old, especially when Jaime was a guest beneath his father's roof. I agree Jaime was between a rock and a hard place, but he wasn't without options. And if you look at his other actions, off the top of my head, they are all misunderstood. He saved thousands and thousands by slaying Rossart and Aerys, and was love-drunk and really only following his heart whenever he took Cersei, so although the act can be rationalized, it probably was his worst crime. IMHO, an good argument can be made for it, at least. And, lest we forget, it did set in motion a series of events that led to Tyrion nearly being killed himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryden Tully Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I honestly think that Jaime's biggest crime is his blanant disregard for King Robert Baratheon, not only did he commit treason by sleeping with his wife and fathering bastards that were then passed on as royal children, he showed Blanant disregard for the King that he swore to protect and then off to break the King's peace, plus he threw the son of a lord paramount out of a window with the intent of killing him. I don't think that Jaime showing some regret in the later books should forgive him for such heinous crimes especially when he's a member of the Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brute of Bracken Posted June 15, 2014 Author Share Posted June 15, 2014 Cersei herself argued that they could have cajoled and threatened him into silence, and Jaime was risking just as much by tossing a kid from a window...the Lord of the Castle's 8-year-old son. Had anyone saw this, and raised the alarm, Jaime and Cersei would never have been able to escape the tower unnoticed, and it's likely the golden-haired Jaime could've even been recognized from the ground. This seems even more risky than an 8 year-old's clumsy recollections and inept descriptions of what he saw. He had no proof. And without proof, it seems hard to believe that Robert would have Jaime and Cersei killed, not to mention the children he has always accepted as his. And what of Lord Tywin? His wroth would be great if his twins were killed upon the word of an 8 yr-old (remember Arya's description of what she overheard in the Red Keep when she told her father?) And Jaime himself argues that if Bran wakes up and talks, he will kill Ned and even go to war if necessary. (The war for Cersei's cunt) lol If Bran talked, Stannis and Jon Arryn would have likely broken their silence. They now have a witness to back their claims. That would mean the end of Jaime, Cersei and likely the kids as well, and war. If someone found out Jaime killed Bran - it's the same situation all over again. So Jaime has really only 2 choices - let Bran go and run the significant risk of losing everyone he loved and war, or to kill Bran. Now I;m not saying he made the right choice, but I;m saying the right choice isn't all that clear. Just think for a moment what it would be to be in that situation. If it's your family, versus the life of an innocent kid. And isn;t Tommen innocent as well? Myrcella? Aren't they just as innocent as Bran? They would likely be put to death if the truth is found out. And Ned does make an apples-apples comparison about this: If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would. The bigger crimes are Jaime's actions leading up to this, which could have entirely been avoided. Specifically, cuckolding the Queen, siring bastards and posing them as royal heirs, and being careless enough to get caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 His biggest crime was breaking his oath. It may have been justified, but he broke it nonetheless, and should not have been allowed to be a Kingsguard any longer afterwards. Had he not been, then he would have never been at Winterfell to push Bran out of the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenKing23 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Not waking the fuck up. Seriously this whole 'redemption arc' seems more like he lifted blinds off but my grip comes from why not sooner? Maybe he should have woke up the first time he fucked his sister or when he covered Tysha's rape story or when he was villified for killing an evil king or when Cersei first got pregnant or the second or the third. But no, it starts when he gets his hand chopped off.Maybe i'm biased but the more I think of it the more scumbag he looks. Seriously he didn't think his father (who made his name by extingushing two houses) wouldn't kill Elia and her childern and he didn't imagine how bad he would treat Tysha. How blind can you get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biter the Gallant Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 His biggest crime was breaking his oath. It may have been justified, but he broke it nonetheless, and should not have been allowed to be a Kingsguard any longer afterwards. Had he not been, then he would have never been at Winterfell to push Bran out of the window. It is interesting,I have never looked it that way,but you are right. And now I think that getting away with such a big crime as kingslaying was probably the main factor (or one of the factors) what made Jaime totally careless about consequences of his acts and responsibility for them on the long run. Killing Aerys was a disputable, and morally perhaps defensible crime, but Robert should send him to the Wall (or take away his Kingsguard mantle at least) for it, not just as punishment, but as education. Jaime was still a teenager - a teenager, who killed the head of state, whom he swore to protect, and he remained unpunished. Had he gone to the Wall for it, he might become one of the most honorable officers of the Night's Watch (he was caring a lot about smallfalk and their defense then). This way, he only studied from it that he can get away with any crime, because he is such a badass, and his dad is so powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 It lead Tyrion to believe the one woman that ever really loved him was a set-up. It changed Tyrion's entire outlook on life, especially women.Yeah, how Jaime was supposed to know about that? I never understood the "I did it to protect my family" defense of Jamie. A bank robber shots a teller who saw their face, because he might have gotten caught. Do people defend the bank robber? A bank robber's family would not be murdered if the witness would tell about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Personally I think murdering Ned's men was worse than what he did to Bran. The latter was terrible, but there were some extenuating circumstances. The former though is pure malice and hot-headed idiocy. And don't tell me "He did it for his brother", anyone with a working brain would have known it would only make Tyrion's situation worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Yeah, how Jaime was supposed to know about that? A bank robber's family would not be murdered if the witness would tell about him. But why should an innocent suffer because of the actions of two law breakers in his own home? He may have had a reason behind what he did, but the bottom line is thay his and Cersei's actions lead to that situation in thne first place. Were it not for their recklessness, arrogance and crimes, there was no need for Bran to be thrown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 He killed the king he swore to protect , Eddard was right it should have been sent to the wall , and somebody else should have handled Aerys not the King's Guardsman. Tried to murder Bran. Fornication with the queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Lannister Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 I wonder how the hell he will get out of it? I can't imagine his story is over yet. A golden fist to the face is as good a cure for zombieism as any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 A golden fist to the face is as good a cure for zombieism as any. Not such a cure for the towering warrior in.the Dogs helm.though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearded Swordsman Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 OK. Jaime keeps his oath. He does not kill Mad King then what ? KL burns, thousands people die, king family dies in flames, Ned does not reach Lyanna in time basicl everything goes to shit. I'm not trying to justify everything he does but based on where he is heading right now either he is going to tell the truth and finally face the music for EVERYTHING he did or he will lie again and die hanged by the LS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 OK. Jaime keeps his oath. He does not kill Mad King then what ? KL burns, thousands people die, king family dies in flames, Ned does not reach Lyanna in time basicl everything goes to shit. I'm not trying to justify everything he does but based on where he is heading right now either he is going to tell the truth and finally face the music for EVERYTHING he did or he will lie again and die hanged by the LS... He didn't have to kill him. He could have knocked him out and tied him up. Death is not always the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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